Karagin
08/19/02 08:42 AM
63.173.170.18
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I am looking for info on the Orion Drive that was purposed by NASA back in the 60/70s.
The one where you toss a nuke out the back of the spaceship and the set it off and use the enegery release to move the ship...does anyone have a webpage or know of a book that goes into detail on this?
IF so could you please share it?
Thanks!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/19/02 08:55 AM
64.83.29.242
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One, I recommend the novel Footfall, by Niven and Pournelle. My namesake Orion spaceship in there kicked butt. The subject is my memory of a quote from the launch of the Michael.
Truly awesome article at www.astronautix.com (The Space Library - it rocks. Mark that page):
Old Bang Bang (If you get by the Smithsonian Air & Space museum in DC, they have one of the "putt putt" chemical explosive test models used in the Orion program and mentioned in that link.)
I'll probably add more links in a bit.
Here's the first extra reference: "The Starflight Handbook," by (spelling approximate) Matlov and Matloff. This is a hard science examination of realistic technologies for interstellar travel. Orion gets a good treatment in there, along with every form of chemical, nuclear, and anti-matter rocket under the sun. Very readable, while not stinting on the science.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (08/19/02 09:06 AM)
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Karagin
08/19/02 09:23 AM
63.173.170.18
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Another good sci-fi novel that has the Orion Drive in it is STONE DOGS by SM Stirling...excellent book and is the third in his Draka Trilogy.
Thanks for the sites and the info!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/19/02 09:29 AM
64.83.29.242
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I only read Stone Dogs once - I found it incredibly depressing - but I don't recall Orions in there (I do read a lot of Stirling's works, including Drakon, but the Stone Dogs just didn't work for me). I recall an anti-matter (mirror matter) ship at the end, and those "Alfven Wave" drives.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/19/02 09:33 AM
63.173.170.18
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The Hero and Great Khan Class ships of the Alliance and the Draka had Orion drives...at least that is how they are done up via the paperback version...the hardback book which combines all three novels cuts out a lot of the rich detail.
(And yes my Ethan Allen was taken from the Ethan Allen in Stone Dogs...same with my Great Khan vessles...though they have AT2ized!  )
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/19/02 09:38 AM
63.173.170.18
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Okay I did some digging on the web...here are some sights I found...
Orion Problems
What we Know
[url=http://www.socorro.demon.co.uk/whats_poss.htm]
What's possible Now[/url]
Orion Life Death Rebirth
Intersteallar Travel
That is all I have found...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/19/02 09:46 AM
64.83.29.242
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The Orion Problems link was excellent. It's a nice balance to the rather rosy link I provided.
Now I have to ask...what's your interest in Orion as far as AT2 goes? 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/19/02 09:53 AM
63.173.170.18
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To answer your question all I can say is that it has something with an idea I was thinking over the other day...that's all I can really say right now... 
Right now I am trying to get facts about it and then I was going to play around with WHY it would be of use in the BT universe etc...
Maybe the aliens that I have coming to take on WoB and Tthe Sphere use it for their dropships...   
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/19/02 10:10 AM
64.83.29.242
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Something to keep in mind is how Orion stands up to AT2 engines: it doesn't, really.
A typical military dropship, an Overlord frex, uses 1.84 tons of fuel (well, reaction mass, but fuel is faster to type) per day while accelerating at 1G. That's 86400 seconds of accelerating 9700 tons at 9.8m/s/s on less fuel than a Boeing 747 uses when it starts its engines (some exaggeration on the part of the 747's fuel consumption).
Unless I goofed my math, that means the Overlord has a specific impulse of 455,427,000 seconds^-1 (implying an FTL exhaust velocity, incidentally). A very, very efficient Orion may reach 1/455th of that and most were looking at 4000-10000 seconds^-1.
A 100-ton fighter seems to have a specific impulse of 240,000 seconds^-1, again outperforming most Orions.
I mean, in terms of performance, existing AT2 fusion rockets are utterly incredible.
However.
AT2 fusion rockets are rather advanced critters. Orions are "Have Nukes, Will Travel." Orions are definitely low tech options to put a dropship-sized load into space and move around a star system.
So, where do they fit in AT2?
A long lost colony in the (Deep) Periphery wants to get into space, perhaps to deal with pirates. Shades of King David's Spaceship and Footfall are possible.
Low tech (~20th century) aliens are assaulted by horrible, furless creatures from outer space ("hoonams," or something like that) with giant walking robots shaped roughly after themselves. The aliens must defeat the "hoonams" by destroying their spaceships, presumably before the invaders can call for assistance. The only solution: an Orion. Once that orbiting warship and its scathing, precision super-lasers is destroyed, the aliens can just nuke the ground units of giant robots, making the planet safe for Life, Liberty, and Xnthalpe'rtple Way.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (08/19/02 10:10 AM)
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Karagin
08/19/02 01:23 PM
63.173.170.146
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Cannon launched space ships are so cool, but I would not want to be the pilot. 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
08/19/02 05:22 PM
209.242.100.230
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What launch system could be more fun than a 3 kilometer long Gauss Rifle?
meow
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Cray
08/19/02 05:47 PM
12.91.127.55
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>What launch system could be more fun than a 3 kilometer long Gauss Rifle?
A mass driver several hundred kilometers long. I could at least ride that one without being turned in a thin, red soup on the rear wall. 
And, frankly, riding an Orion into orbit would be...would be...a BLAST! haw haw haw...sorry.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (08/19/02 05:48 PM)
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Karagin
08/19/02 07:51 PM
63.173.170.160
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The one thing that NONE of the articles covered...does the ship retain radation from the Blast? And how does the thurst actually withstand the heat and force of the blast?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/20/02 07:52 AM
64.83.29.242
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>does the ship retain radation from the Blast?
The pusher plate probably gets radioactive from the bomb's neutrons, just like the structure in a fission reactor. However, that radioactivity would be limited to the side facing the reactor. The plate would act as a radiation shield for the bombs and for its own radioactivity to the crew section.
>And how does the thurst actually withstand the heat and force of the blast?
1) Nuclear bombs released very measurable, knowable, calculable amounts of energy and blast force. Since the ship doesn't sit still to try to resist the force of the blast but "rolls with the punches", the situation is even easier. Think of it as a giant piston in an ICE - exposed to repeated explosions, but surviving.
2) The Astronautix Orion article, the link I provided, details the testing and some of the issues the plate faces. Basically, the blast is so short-lived it doesn't have a chance to overheat the plate. This is just like swinging your hand through open flames - if you left your hand in a bonfire, you'd be charred. If you just whip it through, your hand doesn't have time to overheat. (The article I listed compared the Orion to an internal combustion engine. Combustion temperatures are more than hot enough to melt cast iron, but detonating gasoline doesn't linger long enough to melt the iron, and it's quickly replaced by cold air and fuel). Nukes only provide the briefest of blasts, particularly in a vacuum (and during launch, Orions only used ~100-ton bombs, real peewee nukes).
One thing to pay attention to in the link was the early testing of graphite-covered steel balls suspended 30 feet from a nuke. They only had thousands of an inch ablated off the graphite covering.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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