Nightmare
11/16/01 03:31 PM
194.251.240.107
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So, did BobRichter and Karagin ever get around to fighting
it out? And who won?
Advice for Evil Overlords:
I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Bob_Richter
11/17/01 09:01 AM
134.121.149.97
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Not yet. We're still haggling over minor details.
Like who's a coward and a cheat.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightmare
11/17/01 07:09 PM
194.251.240.107
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Well, we have noticed a few points in the favor of vehicles over here. The lack of a Critical Hit chart seems to be the most
important one, wouldn`t you say? Put an XL Engine in a mech
and you have twice the number of engine slots to take hits.
Put that XL in a vehicle, you have a vehicle with an XL who
loses some space but gains more free weight.
Put 1 tons ammo in a mech and 1 ton in a vehicle. The chance
for an ammo hit is perhaps a bit larger in the vehicle, but look
what happens when you load 10 tons ammo in both. Now it
is certainly more likely the mech takes an ammo hit.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Karagin
11/19/01 01:29 PM
63.173.170.98
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Right Bob, and you are the one who keeps wanting things your way, like having to REDO your vehicle, yet I have not TOUCHED my mechs to redo them.
Like not wanting to use all the level two things, because you are afraid to lose...yep I would say it's you are not ready for this and that you are doing a fine job of getting out of it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/19/01 01:30 PM
63.173.170.98
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Lack of What?
Tell me you didn't just say vehicle's don't have a critial hit table? Cause if you did, I suggest you read the rules again and this time actually read them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightmare
11/20/01 12:38 AM
194.251.240.107
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Badly chosen words, more like it. The vehicle has a FIXED critical hit list, not a diagram like a mech. So it makes no difference for the vehicle if it has an XL or normal engine.
Having one ton of ammo is no different from having ten.
A mech has to allocate critical slots to those things, and therefore runs a greater risk of getting a hit on them.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Acolyte
11/20/01 01:27 AM
142.179.22.99
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Something I'm toying with. Each location has 2 crit tables, just like the arms and torso's on a 'Mech. The first 6 hits are the same as the vehicle crit chart, the remaining 6 can be filled out with equipment. Large weapons can be split between locations (a la AC 20).
Acolyte
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Godsmack
11/22/01 09:51 PM
130.85.16.42
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In any mechs vs vehicles duel, it all depends on what is being used to determine even forces?
If its tonnage or number of units, mechs will win. A 25 ton mech will defeat a 25 ton vehicle. Same goes for 100 tons and 75 and so on and so on. And 5 mechs will always win against 5 vehicles or 10 mechs against 10 vehicles.
If its cost, vehicles will win. I have a 9/14 hovercraft with 4 srm2's that costs only 400,000 C-Bills and a 5/8 track with a PPC that costs 800,000 C-Bills. C-Bill for C-Bill, these vehicles will take any monetarily equivalent group of mechs easily. I can purchase 3-6 vehicles for each opposing light mech, 8-11 for each opposing medium, 14-18 for each opposing heavy and 20-25 for each opposing assault. And this is assuming he is using standard engines in those mechs. Otherwise, Id be sporting a force of vehicles measured in hundreds..
Now that I've told you this, we can all drop the issue
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
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Karagin
11/22/01 10:49 PM
63.23.175.119
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Thank you for pointing out the oh so clear and obvious...since that is not the issue, cost or BV, may I suggest you go and read the WHOLE thread below about Vehciles and their problems according to Bob and why this battle is going on, if it ever happens, and stop jumping in without knowing all the facts...
And one thing your super cheap vehicles die a lot faster then any mech will...and the rules favor the mechs bottom line.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Godsmack
11/24/01 11:19 PM
130.85.16.42
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My super cheap vehicles dont die any faster than an expensive one. The only difference is you can purchase a whole lot of mine for the cost of one of those.
Type: Phallus
Vehicle Type: Hover
Technology Base: Inner Sphere
Mass: 25 Tons
Armour: 7 Tons Standard
Power Plant: 95 ICE
Cruising Speed: 97.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 151.2 kph
Turret: Yes
Armament:
SRM 2 - Turret
SRM 2 - Turret
SRM 2 - Turret
SRM 2 - Turret
1 ammo SRM (50) - Body
Armor Value: 112
Front: 22
Left/Right: 22
Back: 22
Turret: 24
Cost: 404,000 C-Bills
BV: 970
Type: Astehawk
Vehicle Type: Tracked
Technology Base: Inner Sphere
Mass: 25 Tons
Armour: 7 Tons Standard
Power Plant: 125 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54.0 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Turret: Yes
Armament:
PPC - Turret
Armor Value: 112
Front: 22
Left/Right: 22
Back: 22
Turret: 24
Cost: 798,000 C-Bills
BV: 962
Now tell me why these vehicles would die any faster than a standard vehicle. Also, the 9/14 hovercraft would be quite difficult to hit moving at flank speed. Add to that the fact that they only cost 400 grand a piece and Id say any mech would have its hands full with its monetary equivalent in them.
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
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Karagin
11/24/01 11:50 PM
63.173.170.58
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Simple, look at the hit table for vehicles, note all the nice things that happen when 3s, 4s, and 5s are rolled and notice all the nice things that happen if a 2 is rolled and you get the crit...oh wait, all the damage hits one loction on the vehicle instead of being spread out over the whole thing, wow...and then wait...the rules stated if a loction on a vehicle is lost, oh damn the vehicle is dead...
So while you can build all the nice and cool toys you want, the rules kill them much faster then mechs...
So how about you actually read the rules and look over the damage to hit table for vehicles and pay attention to the small details and then open your mouth.
Better yet why don't you get on Bob's behind and get him to play this out with all the variables that would be applied in a real fight, or are you like him and worried that if all the neat little things out there are used your shinny vehicle will be a hood orinment?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Godsmack
11/25/01 01:58 AM
130.85.20.10
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Personally, If I had to take on mechs with vehicles, I would go solely with my Phallus hovercraft I posted earlier. With 40-80 SRM2's attacking EACH of your mechs a turn, what makes you think your mechs will last long enough to destroy 10-20 vehicles each.
I would like to know what mech you think you can beat my hovercrafts with. Remember to divide the cost of that mech by 400,000 to see how many of my 9/14, 4 SRM2 equipped hover vehicles it will have to face. I hope its an assault mech, hehe.
Your best bet would be to use just one cheap light mech around 2-2.5 mill C-Bills. Thats only 5-6 of my vehicles it would have to face (20-24 SRM2's). Using anything other than a single light mech would bury your mechs in SRM fire even worse. 2 light mechs would have to face 10-12 (40-48 SRM2's) vehicles. I would easily take out one mech in one turn of fire. You, if you're lucky, may take out 4 of my vehicles, leaving 6-8 (24-32 SRM2's) for the second mech. The larger your mech force, the better the numbers get for me.
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
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Bob_Richter
11/25/01 09:23 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>A 25 ton mech will defeat a 25 ton vehicle.<<<
Don't be too sure about that. Vehicles have a lot of advantages, if they're designed properly. (amazing speed for minimal cost in tonnage being among those)
>>>And 5 mechs will always win against 5 vehicles or 10 mechs against 10 vehicles.<<<
Particularly since the 'Mechs can just max out their tonnage, forcing the player with vehicles to either sacrifice tonnage or go with the far less effective tracked vehicles.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/25/01 09:32 AM
4.35.174.250
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By cost, it would be difficult (not impossible) for a group of 'Mechs to defeat your badly named hovercraft.
There are cheap 'Mechs, too, you know. A number come in right around 1 million C-Bills. 3050 LB-X Armed UrbanMechs, or a WSP-1As with infernos, if they are allowed, would do a pretty bang-up job against these things. With sufficient preparation, the minefield that any competantly designed LRM boats could lay out with thunder FASCAM mines would bring these things down in a jiffy.
Karagin, buddy, you need to quit bellyaching. I'm just using the level 2 rules to my advantage (I don't have to allow optional rules!), this helps prove my point. Besides, as I mentioned, there are numerous ways I could have set this fight up to MY advantage using optional rules too. Do I have to bring up submarines or hidden SRM Carriers again? (Naturally, you would not have allowed any of these scenarios, why should I be any different?)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/25/01 12:16 PM
63.173.170.130
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Your use of the rules proves nothing other then that you want to find a loop hole to win with...give it up your theories are so full of holes it's not funny.
Based on things I have seen of your hovertank, Bob, and given how the rules of combat work with vehicles I say we have 5 turn game to look forward to...and those mobility hits are going to be your death...but wait you know all that so I hope your ego can handle the defeat...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/26/01 05:15 AM
134.121.149.97
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I feel obligated to point out that neither of the standard locusts (the LCT-1V or the LCT-3M) are equipped with any kind of SRM system. Variants so equipped DO however exist.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/26/01 05:24 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>Your use of the rules proves nothing other then that you want to find a loop hole to win with...<<<
I am not cheating. I am not being cheap. I am simply making every effort to allow you to prove your point.
UNDER LEVEL 2 RULES, Infernos and mines are optional. I HAVE TO AGREE TO LET YOU USE THEM. I do not agree. That's that.
Now quit whining.
>>>
Based on things I have seen of your hovertank, Bob, and given how the rules of combat work with vehicles I say we have 5 turn game to look forward
to...and those mobility hits are going to be your death...but wait you know all that so I hope your ego can handle the defeat...<<<
We shall see.
Actually, I'm wondering how your tremendous ego will be doing when we roll initiative for turn 15.
Mobility hits? No, my friend, you'd have to HIT first. You will see how difficult that can be.
My "ego" is entirely pretense (on my part) and misunderstanding (on your part.) Believe it or not (you will not) I am one of the most humble people you will ever know. I can accept loss. I am used to it, and I have already agreed to concede the point, IF you win.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/26/01 05:24 PM
63.173.170.211
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Man talk about you pricing the calf before it's born...right I forgot you are the expert of this game, I am sure you will find away to win no matter what happens.
YOU are the one that has to prove your theory about vehicles is correct, Bob, so why don't you shut up and find someone to do the maps so we can get this over with or do you plan on winning by sheer boredom?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 04:45 AM
134.121.149.97
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no, you have to prove me wrong so I will shut up, remember?
You can't ever prove a theory right, only wrong.
>>>and find someone to do the maps so we can get this
over with <<<
I'm sorry. I thought you were doing that?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/27/01 06:28 AM
63.173.170.51
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You are so full of your self, IT's your theory you have to prove it is right, all I have to is show you that mechs beat vehicles 9 times out 10 and with the rules as they are the only way the vehicles get the one when is with head shots...
So Bob it's time to put up or shut up...
I asked the two folks who I thought could do the maps they declined, so back to you on that one...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 07:41 AM
134.121.149.97
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I believe we agreed that YOU would do it.
But then again, you really don't plan on doing anything at all except making pitiful attempts at insulting me, do you?
No. I didn't think so.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/27/01 07:45 AM
63.173.170.127
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First off, I am not that familar with the program and seeing how I would like to get this done with BEFORE next year, it would be best if someone else made the maps, wait I do recall stating this before...I see you have forgotten.
And as far as insulting you well if the shoe fits wear it Bob, cause all you are doing is blowing hot air for all to see.
So WHO do you have in mind as a netural third party to make the maps, a mix of rolling hills, heavy woods and the setup of the original battletech map?
I am sure you can find some who can do this so we can get this over and done with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 08:04 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>First off, I am not that familar with the program and seeing how I would like to get this done with BEFORE next year, it would be best if someone else made the maps, wait I do recall stating this
before...<<<
And I repeat: I can and will gladly explain the process to you. It is not difficult. It is a task a child of six could understand and perform quickly with minimal training. I, myself, took no more than an hour learning it, and (as I always say) I suck.
>>>And as far as insulting you well if the shoe fits wear it Bob,<<<
It does not. There is only one egomaniac in the conversation. Hint: It's not me (note comment above: I suck! Does that sound like something an egomaniac would say Karagin? No, it's true though, I *DO* suck. I am about the world's laziest person, it's worst tactician, and I'm pretty bad at everything else too. I am alive now only because the United States Federal Government and my parents somehow think it's a good idea. Are you getting the picture? I'm a DEPRESSIVE, you MORON!)
>>>cause all you are doing is blowing hot air for all to see. <<<
Sure, Karagin. Vehicles, properly designed and employed, are MORE than a match for Battlemechs, as you will see as soon as you get OFF YOUR LAZY DUFF AND BUILD US SOME MAPS!
Or I could save some time and do it myself....but, of course, you won't let me, and noone else is willing to do it, so I'm required to wait around here and TAKE YOUR CRAP while I wait for you to do something you WILL NEVER DO just because you enjoy showering me with UNFOUNDED ABUSE and you can't stand the POSSIBILITY OF LOSING!
Look, I'll make the maps myself. It's not that hard. Trust me, you won't find anything wrong with them. If you do, I'll just do something else. Fair?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/27/01 08:09 AM
63.173.170.127
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More hot air from you on how great you are building vehicles using your wacky ideas...yeah we have all heard it before.
Now to explain things to you ONCE more, having a third party do up the maps keeps you and me from calling each other cheaters or worse, now does that make sense to you or not?
The only moron around here is you Bob, since you seem set on your theories no matter WHAT the rules say and no matter how many folks point them out to you.
Now if you can't understand this then I am sorry but trying READING what is in front of you for once.
Let me sum things up, you want your custom hovertanks to take on my custom mechs, noting that you can't prove your theory with BOOK vehicles, you won't allow mines and I am sure you are pissed I am using LB-X cluster rounds, and all I am asking is some one other then you or me make the maps up based on the terrain listed in the above reply to one of your rants...NOW what is so hard about that Bob?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 08:36 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>
Now to explain things to you ONCE more, having a third party do up the maps keeps you and me from calling each other cheaters or worse,<<<
Actually, I explained that to you.
But, of course, if you would pay attention for a moment:
(which, of course, you won't)
It would be equally workable for one of us to design a map and the other to approve it or to simply COPY the base BT maps you proposed, no? (though, actually, the inclusion of Heavy Woods severely tilts the balance toward 'Mechs....but nevermind that.)
>>>The only moron around here is you Bob,<<<
I'm going to cry.
You cruel, cruel man!
>>>>since you seem set on your theories no matter WHAT the rules say and no matter how many folks point them out to you. <<<
The rules say I am wrong? Wow. I never saw that in BMR. What page is that?
>>>Let me sum things up, you want your custom hovertanks to take on my custom mechs,<<<
Actually, you want it. I'm fine if you concede the fight. Really, I am.
>>>noting that you can't prove your theory with BOOK vehicles,<<<
Which is a painfully stupid observation on your part, since no part of my thesis deals with book 'Mechs or vehicles.
>>>, you won't allow mines <<<
Or infernos. But I can't see why you are bothered by this. You wanted to play by the rules, we are.
>>>I am sure you are pissed I am using LB-X cluster rounds<<<
Nope.
>>>and all I am asking is some one other then you or me make the maps up based on the terrain listed in the above reply to one of your rants...<<<
I suggest you accept my alternative solution so we can, as you put it, get this over with.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/27/01 08:41 AM
63.173.170.127
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Man you are well on to proving that you have to have your way.
I said and if you would read it and understand it, that your theory is a bunch crap considering you need custom vehicles to prove it, yet you never said that in your original posting how convient you forgot that part.
And yes Bob the rules make hash of your theories, but you won't see that so I guess it is going to take the fight to show you that.
Please pick someone (other then you, your brother or myself, so as to keep it fair.) to do the maps up and let's get this done with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 08:49 AM
134.121.149.97
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You aren't listening.
You never do.
Oh well.
And I was actually looking forward to this fight.
Maybe I can have my girlfriend build the maps...
no, you'd think that was too biased too....well, maybe one of my other OpenRPG-using buddies...
not too many of those.
Oh well.
I'll find someone.
Any volunteers?
Really, I can show you how.
It's not that hard.
Someone? Anyone?
Meanwhile, I think I'll go off somewhere and cry...maybe attempt suicide a time or two, the night's still young.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/27/01 08:52 AM
63.173.170.127
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Wow...and this all so heart wrenching...like a bad case of heart burn...
At this point Bob, I don't care who makes the maps as long as it's not your or brother, won't want to have to deal with all the what ifs and such, and I am sure you want a fair playing field given that you have tried really hard to stack things in your favor.
And Bob get some help for your fragile life, they have some really good meds for condition.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 09:23 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>At this point Bob, I don't care who makes the maps as long as it's not your or brother,<<<
Good. Bloody make it yourself, like we agreed two weeks ago, then.
cripes.
>>>and I am sure you want a fair playing field given that you have tried really hard to stack things in your favor. <<<
As have you. This is actually part of the proof, silly man.
(yours, of course. This whole thing is set up so that YOU can prove ME wrong. To actually PROVE MYSELF RIGHT, I would have to take on an infinite number of challengers in an infinite number of battles, but I will shut up if you beat me just this once, which is why I've gone out of my way to remove any factors that might allow me to claim I was cheated of proper victory.)
>>>And Bob get some help for your fragile life,<<<
I was only kidding about the suicide bit. My life's in competant hands (which is to say: not mine.)
>>>they have some really good meds for condition. <<<
Oh yeah. Throw away money. Get all doped up. One day forget to take your meds and kill all your classmates thinking that you are dreaming. Good plan!
I have less respect for the psychological profession than I do for your 'Mech designs.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/27/01 09:30 AM
63.173.170.2
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Actually I never agreed to making them my self I said it was an option but alas one I don't have time to use. So I am asking you to find some one to make them for us.
As for the rest Bob, we will see won't we...please this is getting old and tiresome, you want to be proven right and all that, so please find someone to do the maps, and we will get on with this, then once it's all done you can see if your ideas are correct or not...so please spare me and the rest of us your endless repeating of things we can all go and read over and over again on threads below...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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