Jerjare
06/08/08 06:51 PM
71.141.143.178
|
Note: When I played the board game it was using up to 3055 tech lvl 2 rules, so keep in mind they didn't have all these fancy-schmancy autocannon types/ammo yet.
I think one of my favorite weapons of all time for IS was the LBX AC-10. Oddly enough, it weighs one ton less than the standard counterpart, but the other calibers of LBX autocannon do not (though all the LBXes benefit from being one crit smaller and one hex longer ranged I believe). Since the LBX 10 was also a ton lighter, that made it appealing. Giving it a ton of standard ammo and a ton of submunition ammo gave a mech a nice degree of versatility.
I've heard a lot of arguments on why ACs are inferior. However on the inner sphere end of things I honestly don't think they're that bad. I don't know why, but AC's just "feel" old school to me. An IS ERPPC is going to blow way more heat for the same damage for more range. A Gauss rifle for IS is a big investment in space and weight, has a min range and makes the pilot suffer a hit if the rifle is destroyed, something kind of easy to do since it hogs up so many crit slots. LRMs are nice but have a pesky minimum range which really mitigates firing them at short range to get easier to-hit rolls. And of course virtually every weapon could be replaced by batteries of medium lasers but that's beside the point.
Even the smaller calibers, AC/5 and AC/2 respectively are even less popular. LBX-AC2 though has really good range and you never know if you might KO a pilot with a lucky headshot (cluster rounds definitely make that a bit easier).
Still, for what you get I think LBX autocannon have a good heat-damage ratio (and a weight-range ratio, even though many might disagree).
|
Tripod
06/12/08 10:18 AM
12.49.227.243
|
How exactly do the LBX work?
I see regular AC's as functioning like a large bore tank style gun firing "a" shell hiting and or exploding doing 2/5/10/20 dammage,such as seen in Mechwarrior 1.
As seen in basicly every Mech game since an AC is more machine gun like with a possibility to hit more than one area and fire constantly.
I see the LBX when using standard ammo in the same was as a standard AC. When using cluster ammo I see two ways... a time/proximity fuse - detonation or a "shotgun" style
TBA
|
Fang
06/12/08 02:47 PM
151.193.203.13
|
Autocannons I have seen described usually work one of two ways. there is the single shell tank type, and also they have been described as firing a volley or stream of shells doing 2/5/10/20 damage total. It was my understanding from the description in the Rules of Warfare book ( mine is dated 1994, so things may have changed) that the LBX works similar to a shot gun, firing a cluster round similar to a mech sized shotgun. Others in these forums, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
|
Lafeel
06/12/08 05:21 PM
85.220.112.229
|
I've heard them referred to both as shooting a stream of high caliber rounds, and a single large shell, depending on the source (usually a novel).
And the title "autocannon" doesn't do much to help with that at all, as it merely implies that they are a automatic cannon..
|
Christopher_Perkins
06/13/08 01:52 AM
24.125.201.167
|
Autocannon Vary by the Manufacturer... A description that works for one design will be totally indalidated for another...
For the Most Part, Autocannon are Automaticly loaded and Fired Cannon.
Vehicle Guns are more likely to be Straight Barreled than Rotary Barreld (they have the geometry for it)
Standard Autocannon are Straight Barreled or Rotary Barrel arranged Autocannon that Fire between 1 to 100 Shells of calibres that range between 20 mm and 203 mm, 30 mm to 203 mm being published in the Canon body of work.
Ultra Autocannon are more likley to be Rotary Autocannon that have a set spin/fire rate with the capability to double the spin/fire rate at the cost of risking damage to the weapon... TTBMK No canon artwork has depicted an Ultra Autocannon as a Straight Barreled Design (the closest is an Armoured Cowling that covers all but the port that rounds are shot out of - this is depicted in a Caesar or Catapracht artwork in IIRC BattleTech Master Rules... before introduction of RAC in Canon...
Unlikely that would have been depicted in Canon product while only published in meerly Official Mechforce UK Products
LB-X Autocannon... Variously seen as Large Bore - eXtended or Lubalin Ballistics - eXperimental
no canon source has really given indication of what LB-X Stands For.
However, the Cluster type Shells are true cluster Shells like the real world piece fo equipment (fire, leave barrel, then deploy submunitions... rather than fireing something like grape shot, or true proximity fused ordnance)
Light Autocannon are likely to be straight Barreled, but this is only a guess considering that they are the predecessors of the Rotary Autocannon... Note, While the RAC has a Spin / Fire Rate that varies from 1 - 6 times... the Light Autocannon only has a spin / fire rate of 1x (barring dueling rules or Rapid Fire rules for BattleTech)
Rotary Autocannon are always rotary autocannon, and, sinc they are descended from the Light Autocannon, they are more likely to be fairly close to 30 mm in calibre
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
|
Dester
06/18/08 10:53 AM
216.57.96.1
|
I am an old school gamer so don't allow/ use any IS LB-X autocannons beyond the class 10. But I do use and like it, but find mechs like the annialator with 4 of them to be just a bit munchy for my liking. Usually I would prefer an ER PPC to an LB-X 10 AC as long as I have crit slots for the extra heatsinks (double of course).
On the clan side of things, if im gona put an AC on a mech, i much prefer the LB-X class vs the Ultra class. But i find the class 5 AC near useless and the class 2 only for very specialized very long range mechs of any use.
Dester
|
Venom
11/01/08 04:35 AM
12.217.215.95
|
I hate them. A friend of mine and I were palying clan v clan and he had an LB 2-X AC adn hit at the longest range possible outside of artillery on a 12. Only one cluster hit but it was a possible critical on the head(we always play floating through armor criticals). At that point my night went to shit when he rolled a crit on the cockpit of my personal Dire Wolf. He (mercifully) decided that while my cockpit was destroyed and 'mech out of play, my pilot was not dead, but took 1D6 damage. Luckily for me that roll was a 1!
|
Karagin
11/01/08 11:25 AM
72.178.75.99
|
The LBX ACs have a use and they are great at killing vehicles with the hunt for critical hits game plan similar to SRMs.
They are also good for keep fighters off of your backs if you have those things in a game. Very good on battlearmor as well.
The ability to switch ammo and all is good and bad, but the LBX ACs are something that does help out when needed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Kovax
11/18/08 11:22 AM
75.146.193.46
|
I invariably prefer an energy weapon as a first choice because of the available initial heatsinks and lower weight, but usually favor a ballistic weapon as a second system. The choice between a GR and a slightly smaller LBX is tough, due to the latter's ability to deliver either concentrated damage to one location or scatter fire to find the holes made by earlier solid shots. Using it purely as a "lucky crit seeker" on an otherwise undamaged target seems too much like rules-lawyering to me (or munchkinizing).
I'd certainly take an LBX over an Ultra AC. I'm notorious for failing rolls at critical moments, and have managed to jam almost every Ultra I've ever taken onto the battlefield, in spite of saving the double fire rate for only the most favorable opportunities.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/08 04:49 AM
173.116.112.136
|
I have never liked ballistic weapons at all, with the exception of the GR and LGR. Not only does the GR and LGR have range but they also have hitting power. All of the other ballistic weapons are way to heavy for what they can dish out. The AC2 is a joke if I want real range I will take the LGR, the AC5 does half of the damage as a PPC, The AC10 is out classed by the LL by weight savings and no ammo use, and 4 med lasers can dish out what the AC20 can at 1/3 the weight. About the only place that I can really see any AC being of any real use is in a ICE mech or tank.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Kovax
12/31/08 11:52 AM
75.146.193.46
|
As a primary weapon, using an energy weapon takes advantage of the 10 built-in heatsinks that come with the engine. Adding a second weapon would require adding heatsinks as well, with both their weight and the critical slots they occupy. That second PPC now takes up 12 tons: 7 for the weapon and 5 for the double heatsinks needed to fire it and stay cool. On a design with Endo-steel and Ferro-Fibrous armor, or other space constraints, the lack of slots may require single heatsinks, bringing it to 17 tons. All of a sudden, the AC or GR doesn't look all that bad, although it still isn't necessarily an improvement in a lot of cases.
Edit - the obvious advantage of an AC/20 over 4 medium lasers is that the AC will deliver all 20 points of damage to the same location.
Edited by Kovax (12/31/08 11:56 AM)
|
Prince_of_Darkness
01/10/09 02:02 AM
205.202.120.139
|
Quote:
I have never liked ballistic weapons at all, with the exception of the GR and LGR. Not only does the GR and LGR have range but they also have hitting power.
The GR I can understand, but the LGR? The damned thing only does 8 points of damage.
Quote:
All of the other ballistic weapons are way to heavy for what they can dish out.
What? So the 15 ton, potentially 40 point-damage doing UAC/20 is a bad weapon? Methinks you need to make more 'mechs with AC's.
Quote:
The AC2 is a joke if I want real range I will take the LGR,
While the AC/2 does have little use, it does succeed at providing flak and insane long-range damage. Also, for some weird-ass reason, the AC/2 has some weird ability to get great critical hits. Try it some time- I've lost Battlemasters to Blackjacks that way.
Quote:
the AC5 does half of the damage as a PPC,
So what if it does? The fact that it has 1/10th of the heat generation doesn't mean anything? Or the long track record on level ones?
Quote:
The AC10 is out classed by the LL by weight savings and no ammo use,
Again you are not realizing the one great advantage of AC's over lasers- heat. The AC/10, while weighing much more and requiring ammo, does more damage and generates much less heat. They also give their machines a different "flavor" than a standard only-energy user.
Quote:
and 4 med lasers can dish out what the AC20 can at 1/3 the weight.
Yeah, but at incredibly splatter-tastic damage with much higher heat. Since an AC/20 can also take my head off in one hit and is the most prime-direct damaging level one weapon, i'd fear that AC/20 much, much more.
Quote:
About the only place that I can really see any AC being of any real use is in a ICE mech or tank.
Again, you need to start using 'mechs that use AC's. Take an old level one Shadowhawk into a fight; with right planning, I have actually beaten a clan Nova with one (albeit with a little luck  )
|
Kovax
01/13/09 11:02 AM
75.146.193.46
|
An LB2X makes a perfect anti-vehicle weapon, good for immobilizing those pesky tanks at ranges where they can't hit back. I can picture several other situations where the right autocannon (rotary, gauss, or LBX) could be the deciding factor in a battle. As stated, the AC/20 and Gauss have one-shot killing capability by concentrating the damage in a single location. Unleashing the full capacity of a rotary AC in a back-shot situation could be another insta-kill, even from beyond the maximum range of those beloved medium lasers. LBX cluster rounds are great for exploiting holes in an opponent's armor (and the LB10X can make those holes before switching to cluster munitions), apart from "lucky crit seeking" on an otherwise undamaged target with them.
As stated, energy weapons make an ideal "first" weapon, due to the freebie heatsinks included with the Mech, but the rest of the armament needs to get rid of the excess heat somehow, which suddenly makes ACs acceptable, if not attractive. Designing around one big AC with a supporting battery of medium or medium pulse lasers can be highly effective, or a dual main gun design: one energy, one ballistic.
|
Zandel_Corrin
01/13/09 05:36 PM
123.2.140.247
|
Quote:
LBX cluster rounds are great for exploiting holes in an opponent's armor (and the LB10X can make those holes before switching to cluster munitions), apart from "lucky crit seeking" on an otherwise undamaged target with them.
Not just the 10X.... all LBX can use cluster or normal ammo making the LB20X another insta kill weap or a sand blaster depending on ammo.
I DM'd a game where back story was that my mate's character got his command because of a failed attack that led to his commander hetting shot out of his centurion by an AC 20 to the head....from a tank (rommel / patton can't remember which is 20 and which is 10) They managed to push the tanks back and salvaged the mech so my mate rode it into battle the next fight.... It was the AC 20 variant and he shot the crew out of there tank the very same way... first shot he fired too....
Now that was just so dam funny.... irony and poetic justice in one.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/14/09 09:41 PM
67.180.139.229
|
Quote:
Again, you need to start using 'mechs that use AC's. Take an old level one Shadowhawk into a fight; with right planning, I have actually beaten a clan Nova with one (albeit with a little luck )
The first mech that I designed used AC weapons. I ran out of ammo and I died trying to run away. Once going to a all energy mech I have never ran out of ammo again. As for heat, I design my mechs not to get into that problem. I don't design my mechs that generate more heat than they dump in one round for a given range category.
As for the AC20 versus Med lasers. AC20 14 tons, 3 tons ammo, 3 tons heat sink, for a weight of 20 tons. One chance of hitting doing 20 damage to one place. 5 med lasers 5 tons, 15 heat sinks 15 tons, total weight 20 tons. Five chances to do 5 damage all over the mech. If you count the 10 standard heat sinks that come with a mech I can have 6 med lasers and with running I have a extra heat sink to spare for the same weight. If you go with DHS that's 10 med lasers, 5 DHS for a weight of 15 tons which is 2 tons less than the AC20. I would be more than happy to go up ageist your mech that has a AC20 with my mech that has 10 med lasers. Yes, you have that 1 in 36 chance of hitting my cockpit, that is if you hit my mech with your one shot in the first place. I would rather have my 10 chances of hitting your mech for 5 damage each hit.
Also what happens when your out of ammo? You are DOOL. (Dead Out Of Luck)
Thanks but no thanks, I will stay with energy weapons.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Prince_of_Darkness
01/15/09 11:02 AM
205.202.120.139
|
Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey Said:
As for heat, I design my mechs not to get into that problem. I don't design my mechs that generate more heat than they dump in one round for a given range category.
You must lose out on a lot of available firepower, then. While all-energy users always have at least one advantage over ammo-based designs, they rarely, if never, do more damage or have the versatility an Autocannon or missile carrying 'mech. The cluster rounds of LBX's and the indirect capacity of LRM's is more than enough to prove this.
Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey Said:
As for the AC20 versus Med lasers. AC20 14 tons, 3 tons ammo, 3 tons heat sink, for a weight of 20 tons. One chance of hitting doing 20 damage to one place. 5 med lasers 5 tons, 15 heat sinks 15 tons, total weight 20 tons. Five chances to do 5 damage all over the mech.
Just from what you described, I can say that you were both:
A. Far too general
B. Highly oversinked
The use of an AC/20 requires patience and vigilance. Even if it is hot for an AC, you aren't going to be firing each time you are in range- especially with the canon designs, in which they rarely pack more than 10 rounds. If you are in level 1, you rarely need 3 other HS- you will almost never be firing every turn when you can. It is the same way with the Medium Lasers- I would probably only have 6 extra HS.
Besides...what if it is an ICE Tank? Than you are wasting an exuberant ammount of tonnage on something they were not meant to carry.
Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey Said:
If you go with DHS that's 10 med lasers, 5 DHS for a weight of 15 tons which is 2 tons less than the AC20. I would be more than happy to go up ageist your mech that has a AC20 with my mech that has 10 med lasers. Yes, you have that 1 in 36 chance of hitting my cockpit, that is if you hit my mech with your one shot in the first place. I would rather have my 10 chances of hitting your mech for 5 damage each hit.
Yes, but by that time you have 10 freaking medium lasers, which really makes the point entirely moot.
Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey Said:
Also what happens when your out of ammo? You are DOOL. (Dead Out Of Luck)
Why do you think that AC/20 is my only weapon? With that hog, you always have a backup(s).
|
Lafeel
01/15/09 11:16 AM
157.157.28.195
|
Ah the old medium laser boat vs big gun argument..Brings back memories (not neccessarily good ones), as I've been on both sides of the argument at one time or another.
Now that I'm a more mature player, I'm with PoD on this one.
Simply put even if you can not see a reason for this in your style of play there is a perfectly valid point against arming all of your mech's with medium lasers, or indeed all energy armament, all the time, but to do so you have to delve outside the box, and into the fluff part of the game.
*isn't a member of f.í.f.l. (fellowship of icelandic fluff players-rough translation, although it's for Warhammer players) for nothing you know*
edit: just for your amusement, fífl means idiot, or fool, in Icelandic, so naming the group that is something of a inside joke. 
Edited by Lafeel (01/15/09 12:53 PM)
|
Kovax
01/15/09 11:45 AM
75.146.193.46
|
How do you get 20 tons for an AC/20? I figure 14 for the weapon, 2 tons of ammo (if you need to take more than 10 shots with a short-range 'Mech in a scenario, you're doing something wrong), and the integral 10 heatsinks that come with the 'Mech should adequately handle the 7 heat that the weapon generates, with a couple left over for movement or a backup laser. That's 16 tons.
10 medium lasers generate 30 heat, so with standard HS, you're talking about adding 20 tons of sinks to dissipate all that, above and beyond the 10 built-in, totalling 30 tons, which still leaves nothing left for relieving movement heat. Dropping that to 6 medium lasers, they generate 18 heat, so you would need 8 tons of heatsinks in addition to the 6 tons of lasers to cool all that, plus another HS for movement heat (or not use all the lasers). That totals 15 tons to do a potential of 30 damage, scattered over the entire 'Mech. I don't see that as an improvement over concentrating 20 points on a single location, with a good possibility of breaching the armor and doing internal damage with one hit against most medium or some heavy designs. Granted, getting hit by either is not a prospect I would cherish as one of my favorite moments (although it might be one's last moment...).
With DHS and 10 ML, you still need 5 more to dump the extra 10 heat that the initial 10 doubles won't handle, which adds up to 15 tons, and you STILL need a heatsink for movement heat, bringing it to the same 16 tons. Granted, the 10 ML and DHS will typically outperform the AC in this case, provided that your 'Mech design can provide the 28 (or more, depending on the engine size) free slots necessary to squeeze in 10 medium lasers and 6 IS double heatsinks. The MLs and DHS may seem more attractive in MOST cases, but it's still not a cut-and-dried answer when you figure in all of the other complications.
|
Lefric
01/15/09 12:39 PM
216.120.184.66
|
OK, I like the LBX series for several reasons:
1) the -1 to hit when firing cluster rounds. This makes it a very good weapon system for greener pilots. One of my campaign mechs is the pulse variant of the Marauder. Between the pluse lasers and 1 ton of cluster ammo, a very deadly infigter.
2) Versatility (at least with two tons of ammo). Need crits? Go shotgun. Need damage? Go solid shot. This is more true with the larger bore guns, but true of all calibers to some degree.
3) better range brackets and lower tonnage than the equivlant regular or ultra models.
4) CRITS! Need I say anymore?
"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harm." -George Orwell
|
Zandel_Corrin
01/15/09 05:57 PM
123.2.140.247
|
That 10 med / DHS design is not a valid comparison anyway.... AC 20 is L1 tech DHS is L2....
If we use an UAC20 and DHS then you still use more weight... 18 tons min (you need that 3 tons of ammo so you can double fire at the right times... I even go 4 tons ammo in fights against heavy / assaults.
now we get 16 tons = no heat buildup (weapons and movement heat = 0), 50 possible damage clustered in 5 point shots but because of all the dice your rolling you'll almost never hit with all.... even if you have 80% chance you hit about 8 times... for 40 spread out damage
OR
18 tone no heat buildup (20 heat sink capacity > 7 or 14 heat from weapon + move heat =0), 40 possible damage grouped into 20 point shots and with only 2 dice being rolled you will hit with both more often then not.... sure you have the possibility of a jam.... but that's only a small chance.
I know i'd prefer the AC..... if those two shots hit the same location then it's internal damage on almost anything.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/16/09 03:45 AM
67.180.139.229
|
Quote:
How do you get 20 tons for an AC/20? I figure 14 for the weapon, 2 tons of ammo (if you need to take more than 10 shots with a short-range 'Mech in a scenario, you're doing something wrong), and the integral 10 heatsinks that come with the 'Mech should adequately handle the 7 heat that the weapon generates, with a couple left over for movement or a backup laser. That's 16 tons.
I explained that in the post, look back. But I did make an error. (When I was fired from my interstate trucking job all of my battletech books disappeared when I was trying to transport all of my stuff half way across the country with out any warning.) I was thinking that the AC20 created 3 heat and not 7. So with that correction and with only two tons of ammo, AC20 14 tons, AC ammo 2 tons, 7 heat sinks 7 tons, for a total of 23 tons. I was not designing a mech: I was comparing two weapon systems.
Quote:
10 medium lasers generate 30 heat, so with standard HS, you're talking about adding 20 tons of sinks to dissipate all that, above and beyond the 10 built-in, totalling 30 tons, which still leaves nothing left for relieving movement heat. Dropping that to 6 medium lasers, they generate 18 heat, so you would need 8 tons of heatsinks in addition to the 6 tons of lasers to cool all that, plus another HS for movement heat (or not use all the lasers). That totals 15 tons to do a potential of 30 damage, scattered over the entire 'Mech. I don't see that as an improvement over concentrating 20 points on a single location, with a good possibility of breaching the armor and doing internal damage with one hit against most medium or some heavy designs. Granted, getting hit by either is not a prospect I would cherish as one of my favorite moments (although it might be one's last moment...).
Again, go back to what I said, and this time don't read what is not there.
Quote:
With DHS and 10 ML, you still need 5 more to dump the extra 10 heat that the initial 10 doubles won't handle, which adds up to 15 tons, and you STILL need a heatsink for movement heat, bringing it to the same 16 tons. Granted, the 10 ML and DHS will typically outperform the AC in this case, provided that your 'Mech design can provide the 28 (or more, depending on the engine size) free slots necessary to squeeze in 10 medium lasers and 6 IS double heatsinks. The MLs and DHS may seem more attractive in MOST cases, but it's still not a cut-and-dried answer when you figure in all of the other complications.
You will not be finding a AC20 on a 20 ton mech either. Try working with a 75 ton mach with a 375 XL engine.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/16/09 04:56 AM
67.180.139.229
|
Quote:
That 10 med / DHS design is not a valid comparison anyway.... AC 20 is L1 tech DHS is L2....
If we use an UAC20 and DHS then you still use more weight... 18 tons min (you need that 3 tons of ammo so you can double fire at the right times... I even go 4 tons ammo in fights against heavy / assaults.
now we get 16 tons = no heat buildup (weapons and movement heat = 0), 50 possible damage clustered in 5 point shots but because of all the dice your rolling you'll almost never hit with all.... even if you have 80% chance you hit about 8 times... for 40 spread out damage
OR
18 tone no heat buildup (20 heat sink capacity > 7 or 14 heat from weapon + move heat =0), 40 possible damage grouped into 20 point shots and with only 2 dice being rolled you will hit with both more often then not.... sure you have the possibility of a jam.... but that's only a small chance.
I know i'd prefer the AC..... if those two shots hit the same location then it's internal damage on almost anything.
You use the 2 missile chart to see if on or two of the shots hit. With my books gone I am going by memory here. you either have a 21 in 36 or 58.3% chance of having both shots hitting or a 15 in 36 or 41.6% chance of both hitting. Yes "IF" they both hit that is some hurting even if your in a 100 ton mech with maxed out armor. But I still like the odds with the 10 med lasers better. You will not be firing that UAC20 at 2X with a 12 needed to roll. But you better be betting I will be firing my 10 med lasers! Why not? that's 10 chances at getting that 2.7% chance to hit. Also its not like I am using up any ammo. If you have no idea what I am saying when you have a X out of 36 chance of something. When you roll two six sided dice there are 36 possible results that you will come up with.
One thing that I am starting to wonder about, are you guys just looking at the maximum potential of the weapons and not what the odds are that you will get the result that you're wanting. I am going with the shot gun theory with my mech weapons. If you put enough shot into the air your bound to hit something. Even with needing only a 3 to hit you might just miss. But with 10 shots at a 3 to hit the chances of you missing ALL of them is so great that if you do that I would suggest you go and buy that lottery ticket. I calculate that the chances of rolling a 2 ten times in a row to be 3,656 trillion to one against.
Now going back to the original subject. The LRM 10 is great deal lighter than the LBX AC and you get that spread out damage that you are looking for at a greater range.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Lafeel
01/16/09 08:37 AM
157.157.28.195
|
You are conveniently forgetting the six hex minimum range of the lrm's there..
|
Kovax
01/16/09 10:03 AM
75.146.193.46
|
Your Level 1 comparison takes the 7 HS into account in order to fire the AC/20, giving 14 for the weapon, 2 for the ammo, and 7 for heatsinks (not giving the benefit of the 10 built-in heatshinks), for a total of 23 tons. Using that same logic, those 6 medium lasers would require 18 heatsinks, bringing the total to 24 tons (again, not using the 10 built-in heatsinks which you chose to ignore in the first example). Again, you are likely to scatter those 6 shots across the 'Mech sandpaper fashion, whereas the AC will put a big 20 point divot in one location. Granted, once you've punched that 20 point hole, the medium lasers become an ideal way of adding further injury to insult, but you need to make that hole first.
I'm not saying that the AC/20 is "clearly superior", it's not. On the other hand, the laser battery isn't either; both are viable alternatives under the right conditions.
|
Prince_of_Darkness
01/16/09 11:28 AM
205.202.120.139
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by His_Most_Highass_Donkey:
One thing that I am starting to wonder about, are you guys just looking at the maximum potential of the weapons and not what the odds are that you will get the result that you're wanting.
The problem is actually (and sorry for sounding like a smartass, but it's true) that you are looking only at the big picture. You are only allowing yourself to notice the potential damage from a horde of ML's in correlation to one big gun, which is then boosted by your (obvious) bias against autocannons in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by His_Most_Highass_Donkey:
You use the 2 missile chart to see if on or two of the shots hit. With my books gone I am going by memory here. you either have a 21 in 36 or 58.3% chance of having both shots hitting or a 15 in 36 or 41.6% chance of both hitting. Yes "IF" they both hit that is some hurting even if your in a 100 ton mech with maxed out armor. But I still like the odds with the 10 med lasers better. You will not be firing that UAC20 at 2X with a 12 needed to roll. But you better be betting I will be firing my 10 med lasers! Why not? that's 10 chances at getting that 2.7% chance to hit. Also its not like I am using up any ammo. If you have no idea what I am saying when you have a X out of 36 chance of something. When you roll two six sided dice there are 36 possible results that you will come up with.
LOL WUT?
Okay...first, if you do not have your books with you to check, this automatically leaves you open to massive levels of conjecture. Here, again, you are letting your bias and hatred of AC's get the best of you. You also forgot- any single AC/20 hit on ANY 'mech is frightening, simply for the sheer damage they do. But when you replace that AC/20 with a horde of ML's, you run into a problem- sure, the potential for doing damage goes up, but everything is so splatter-tastic that you will not get the same benefit from one 20-point chunk. And again you forget that in most cases, 10 Medium lasers on any design is a massive investment. With DHS, that's 6 extras you have to place on the chassis, which takes up a lot of goddamned room, which really limits you to assaults. I can use my own personal machine for this- my Prince of Darkness is an absolute crit-hog, and actually does slightly less damage of other machines- only the fact that my pilot at the helm is insanely good (and the tactical value he possesses) keeps me from revising it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by His_Most_Highass_Donkey:
You will not be finding a AC20 on a 20 ton mech either. Try working with a 75 ton mach with a 375 XL engine.
Okay, now you really are going to extreme lengths to win an argument. You will NEVER see battle-worth 20 tonner with an AC/20. Ever. The size of the freakin' thing is enough that it has to go so slow that even Urbanmechs laugh. With 5/8 75 tonners, you also forget that the XL engine frees up a lot of weight, which means that carrying one isn't out of the question- in fact, it would be a damn good thing, as it would be able to close with an enemy too quick for the other to respond.
Your bias is getting out of control.
|
Kovax
01/16/09 12:46 PM
75.146.193.46
|
Face it, with something as nasty as a 75 tonner with a 375XL, you could probably add both, and fire the AC and half the lasers when you get a decent shot, or conserve ammo and use the lasers if the to-hit odds look marginal. Of course, any 6/9 or faster 'Mech with a long-range weapon would eat it for a snack and spit out the titanium bones.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/16/09 12:55 PM
67.180.139.229
|
When I said Try working with a 75 ton mech with a 375 engine. I was talking about putting the 5 DHS inside the engine for no crits needed to be placed for the DHSs.
My preference of mech is a 75 ton mech, a 375 engine, max armor, 10 med lasers, 2 ERLL, and 15 DHS.
My L1 one has a 300 engine with 6 med lasers, and 2 LLs, I think it had 8 HS. I am not sure because again everything that I had for BT is gone.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/16/09 05:58 PM
67.180.139.229
|
I found my mech design here on list
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/150941/an/0/page/1#150941
On the Bazzer ll, I don't know if Component Armor is still still in the rules. I do know that the VR Targeting Computer is not so say replace that with a rear firing small laser.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Prince_of_Darkness
01/17/09 01:00 AM
205.202.120.139
|
It is mean, but it has a lot going against it.
1. Highly expensive
2. Easy to destroy
3. Component armor is wasted on such a crit-heavy machine
Also, where are the ML's placed?
|
Zandel_Corrin
01/18/09 06:07 PM
123.2.140.247
|
The major point in an AC10 or 20 any type is that that's a 10 or 20 point chunk of damage (unless your sanding with LBX cluster shots....)
IMHO LB20X is the BEST os the AC family because of the 20 point solid shots (tear open the armour of any mech with one or two shots) then seek out those internals with the cluster rounds.... this tactic is even worse if you can get behind the enemy.....
And that in itself is a tactical advantage... have you EVER seen ANY mech happy to turn it's back on an AC 20 carrier? Even the 100 Ton assaults will fall cringe from a SINGLE shot to the back.... can you say the same about your 10 MLas?
ALso consider.....
10 Mlas + 20 single HS = 30 tons
AC 20 + 2 tons Ammo = 16 tons
you can fit the AC on a lot more designs.... even down to 50 tonners (hunchback anyone?)..... for the same weight you can get:
6 MLas + 10 HS = 16 tons and you can fire and run.... that's 30 damage potential BUT your not gonna be killing from behind in one turn (two for most heavy / assaults)
If you want to go with the 10 Mlas variant then i counter with this:
{AC20 + 2 Ammo = 16 Tons} PLUS {AC10 + 2 ammo = 14 tons}
EQUALS
1} 30 damage vs 50 (possible damage) but 1 20 shot and 1 10 shot vs 10 5 shots
2} roughly same heat to fire both and run
3} Much Better range with AC 10 vs Mlas this
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
|
|
|
Extra information
|
0 registered and 33 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 26137
|
|
|
|
|
|
|