ix
03/21/12 11:35 PM
92.28.116.145
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With no technology limitations nor adherence to any kind of sensible Battletech history what are the most extreme mechs you can come up with? Not just in terms of winning fights but in every extreme of application- speed, crazy abuse of cargo rules and so on. This is my attempt at a bonus stacking monster which takes the clan speed and distance concepts to absurdity through some kind of Words of Blake and Society technological collision:
MunchkinMax
Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X
Production Year: 0
Cost: 19,400,238 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,220
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 270 XXL Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 97.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 151.2 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Laser-Reflective
Armament:
1 (CL) Large Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 51 points 1.500
Internal Locations: 1 LT, 6 LA
Engine: XXL Engine 270 4.828
Walking MP: 9
Running MP: 14
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: (CL) Double Heat Sink 16(32) 6.000
Heat Sink Locations: 2 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT
Gyro: 0.000
Cockpit: Interface 4.000
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Laser-Reflective AV - 105 6.562
Armor Locations: 1 CT, 4 RA
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 15
Center Torso (rear) 5
L/R Torso 7 11
L/R Torso (rear) 3
L/R Arm 5 10
L/R Leg 7 14
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CL) Large Pulse Laser RA 10 2 6.000
A.E.S. RA - 1 0.858
Null Signature System * 10 7 0.000
Chameleon LPS * 6 6 0.000
Free Critical Slots: 3
* The Null Signature System occupies 1 slot in every location except the HD.
* The Chameleon LPS occupies 1 slot in every location except the HD and CT.
Footnote: I know some players don't like munchkin mechs, I believe they have a place when both players are happy to pit their twisted creations against each other but would never play something another player was unhappy with so please don't turn this into a debate on munchkinism.
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/23/12 12:23 AM
75.170.101.90
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Aw comeon; you can do better than that!
Grand Ebony MEB-G-31XX
Mass: 55 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 9,911,837 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,844
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 275 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 53.75 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.0 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 240 meters (300 meters)
Armor: Unknown Stealth Armor
Armament:
1 (CL) ER PPC + PPC Capacitor
1 ECM Suite
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
Overview:
Aside from Clan Double Heatsinks, EndoSteel, ECM, ERPPC and Partial Wings, this
thing is totally standard Canopian construction. It's a lot more than a simple
upgrade on its namesake, actually more than doubling in mass, doubling in
damage output, increasing range, increasing armor and adding a huge jumping
distance at a sacrifice of most of its ground mobility.
As a design, it incorporates Clan-grade technology in a role that absolutely no
Clan scientist would consider: A stealthy, opportunistic hit-and-run harasser.
Most of the success of the design is thanks to its combination of Clan-grade
ERPPC with a uniquely Inner Sphere designed Capacitor system to deal an
enormous 20 points of concentrated damage at out to 23 hexes with only 3 points
of overheat when jumping it's full 10 hexes and using its stealth armor.
The thing is a horrible cheesemonster. I regret nothing!
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 91 points 3.00
Internal Locations: 1 LT, 6 LA
Engine: Fusion Engine 275 15.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 8 (10) (Improved)
Jump Jet Locations: 2 CT, 3 LT, 3 RT 8.00
Heat Sinks: Double 14(31) 4.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 HD, 2 RA
Gyro: Compact Gyro 4.50
Cockpit: Small 2.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Stealth Armor AV - 112 7.00
Armor Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 18 17
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 13 14
L/R Torso (rear) 4
L/R Arm 9 10
L/R Leg 13 13
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CL) ER PPC + PPC Capacitor RA 20 2 6.00
PPC Capacitor RA 5* 1 1.00
ECM Suite RT 0 1 1.00
Partial Wing LT/RT - 3/3 3.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 4 Points: 18
5/10j 1 1 1 0 2 0 Structure: 5
Special Abilities: ECM, STL, ENE, SRCH, EEE, ES, SOA
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ix
03/23/12 12:59 AM
92.28.116.145
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You've got the defence and mobility down but your machine can't hit anything that's playing the same games. =)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/23/12 05:58 AM
173.5.92.1
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You forgot the veritable targeting computer. I cant remember what rule book it was in. I do remember that it was considered lever 3 rules and not tournament legal.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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KamikazeJohnson
03/23/12 08:16 PM
74.198.150.240
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Sure it can...there's only one pilot in the galaxy trained on this 'Mech...and his gunnery is -2
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/23/12 11:27 PM
107.29.228.79
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Quote:
Sure it can...there's only one pilot in the galaxy trained on this 'Mech...and his gunnery is -2
Oh good! I was so worried for a moment there that he might be better than my character that has piloting -20 and gunner -35 
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Prince_of_Darkness
04/25/12 03:28 PM
75.170.103.205
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Quote:
You've got the defence and mobility down but your machine can't hit anything that's playing the same games. =)
So? Jumping 10 with Stealth armor active means you're looking at... what, a +7 at least? He won't hit all the time- but he will eventually.
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ix
05/01/12 12:05 PM
92.28.116.125
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+4 long range, +2 Null sig, +2 Chameleon LPS, +4 target moved 10 or more hexes, +3 jumped: +15 to hit for you vs +5 target jumped 10 or more hexes, +2 Stealth, + 4 range, +2 ran, -2 Pulse Laser, -1 targeting computer, -1 Interface Cockpit: +9 for me.
Edited by ix (05/01/12 09:02 PM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/01/12 10:05 PM
108.102.95.76
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I dont know about the rest but you cant used a targeting computer with pulse weapons
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
05/01/12 10:15 PM
173.168.112.109
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Quote:
I dont know about the rest but you cant used a targeting computer with pulse weapons
Yes, you can. Per pg143, Total Warfare: Pulse and rapid-Fire weapons: "Pulse and rapid-fire weapons may not use a targeting computer to make an aimed shot, unless a rapid-fire weapon is firing a single shot, in which case it can make an aimed shot as described above)."
While you can't make aimed shots with pulse laser + TC combos, pulse lasers can most definitely benefit from TC's -1 to hit for a total of -3.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
05/01/12 11:33 PM
178.76.140.186
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So the limited the munch some what...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/02/12 11:56 AM
108.125.1.148
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I thought I remembered that PoD said to me that they could not be used together when I posted my Blazer IIC mech. I guess I misunderstood what he said.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ix
05/02/12 02:31 PM
92.28.116.125
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Sorry, I made a typo, it's using an AES on the Large Pulse Laser arm, though both work with Pulse Lasers as Cray says. People often complain about the munchkinism of targeting computers but I don't think they're the problem, I think Pulse weapons should only get -1 to hit. The size and weight of a targeting computer is considerable.
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Karagin
05/02/12 04:07 PM
178.76.140.186
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People complain when your must win at all cost munchkin has the pulse lasers targ computer combo with enough heat sinks to alpha fire all day long and added to this mess is the crack pilot who further reduces the firing numbers down to why bother to roll the dice or even play against them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ix
05/03/12 06:52 AM
92.28.116.125
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My little footnote at the beginning was for you. As a game designer I like to push games to their limits to see how the system responds, don't mistake that for having cheesy creations inflicted on others. I think this mech design is broken and would not use it. I do however find it bizarre that people would blame the player rather than the rule system.
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Karagin
05/03/12 01:27 PM
178.76.140.186
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The designers never intended folks to build ultimate death machines. ALL of the original mechs are balanced in some way with a flaw or three, that give the machines character and the makes the player use something called thinking. See the game has never been about walk out in the open field blast the other guy to bits. It has been about maneuver and getting the right bit of luck and having your Shadow Hawk blast the Atlas cause he got over the hill and behind him. They also made things so that each side had similar weapons thus preventing a massive one shot one kill game.
What games do you design IX? Cause if you build them to where the kid who has to win no matter how much he ruins the fun of the game for those he is play against tells me that your games aren't fun expect for power players.
The rules are adjustable and bendable to a point, but if you are telling me that you would willing allow a player to bring a mech (tonnage matters not) into a game that you know is overpowered and uses every loop hole to get every bit of extra what ever out of then I really think you might want to look at what you are doing here. First you are telling the players they can toss the basic rules if they want, okay guess if they all want to run around in mechs that can never over heat, fire all their weapons till either they run out of ammo or targets and have crack elite super warriors for pilots then hey I guess that to us is fun and okay. But for the vast majority of us, we out grew that kind of fun, or if not completely well it is toned down a lot and not so much a need to win as to have fun. But again this brings me back to my question to you, what games do you design, I am curious to see your hand work and find out why you feel that it's not the players fault or immaturity etc...but the rules fault.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/03/12 01:29 PM
178.76.140.186
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And if you don't want to debate the pros and cons of munckins then don't ask for folks to post munchy mechs...the two end up going hand and hand...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ix
05/03/12 03:47 PM
92.28.116.125
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I was lead designer for many years on the Quake 3 modification Challenge Promode Arena. It was one of the major competitive mods for the game with carefully balanced and enhanced gameplay.
What's the point of any debate? You seem to be unable to read and internalize my disclaimer and are just interested in having a whine. My contention is that the basic game can be better if it's properly balanced, as in you'd enjoy it more and the things you seem offended about being abused by 'power gamers' would be lessened to a proper state of balance. I think the original game is fine, aside from the general weakness of ballistic weapons compared to energy, but the add-on technologies broke it- Double heatsinks, Clan Pulse Lasers, stackable hit-modifiers (Nullsig/Chameleon LPS), Partial Wing are too strong.
"Cause if you build them to where the kid who has to win no matter how much he ruins the fun of the game for those he is play against tells me that your games aren't fun expect for power players."
If your gaming group is all very casual then I understand that attitude but it's very odd to argue that the game should be left in a broken state because you don't want to play it well. Competitive games are fun and hugely popular: poker, first person shooters, chess, Go, RTS, Magic the Gathering. They don't suffer by actually working if you want to have fun against other competitive players by playing to win. Are you trying to tell me you don't play at all to win? Or just a certain amount and everyone else must play it exactly as you do? It's a war game, about combat, the aim of which is to win. Read Sirlin's playing to win article here: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html Perhaps after reading it you won't feel the need to whine about new players beating you with 'luck'.
Again, because I've said it a couple of times and it's not gone in- no one is talking about coming to your gaming session and imposing something you don't enjoy, so what you're doing seems bizarre, to be offended at content on the internet that's different to how you see the game. Games are different things to different people and can be played in a variety of ways.
Edited by ix (05/03/12 03:54 PM)
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Karagin
05/04/12 12:10 AM
178.76.140.186
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And you missed my point. No one wants to play with a person who has to win via loopholes in the rules. It takes the fun out of the game. If some one needs to use munchy items mixed together to win then that says a lot about their ability to play a game for fun, since the fun for them is winning at all cost.
As for a new player beating with luck, okay it happens, not whining as you seem to think I am. I am pointing out that many of us are tired of the munchy crap that seems to show up by new players who have come into the game via the video games, where munch is the key way to go. The two games are very different, the board game limits things for balance where as the video game goes the other way and tosses balance for fun and cool of blowing up everything in front of you.
I am not saying the game should not be fixed, I am saying that you can not say its' the fault of the rules for a player to willing make munchkin fighting system just to win, if they can't take a stock item and use it and win then to me they have not learned to the play the game. At this point luck has nothing to do with min/max of the rules just to win. Anyone can take a mech with four clan large pulse lasers, a TargComp, double heat sinks maxed out to allow all four to fire all day, toss in the elite pilot and add in all the other goodies that game offers but never intended for anyone to mixed together as some seem to have the need to do in order to win, and spend the day wiping folks off the board. So again answer my question, HOW is that fun for any one but the person using that mech? Sure beating him is great if it happens, but it doesn't prove anything.
If you like the idea of munch and turning this game from miniature table top game in to a first person shooter then that is your idea of how it should go, but I don't see that as the only way to play or even look at this game. I will agree the rules are not the best, yes they have loopholes and yes folks will exploit them but normally those folks are few and yet here you are suggesting that it is okay and folks should do this since the rules are broken. Again I say no they are not perfect but then again they were not intended to have folks max ever thing out and expect the system to still work as it should.
Seeing that you are also not willing to see beyond your side of the debate over this I guess we will stay on our sides of the issues and leave at that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ix
05/04/12 12:42 AM
92.28.116.125
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Just re-read through my posts, you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with a strawman of your own creation while ignoring things I've said repeatedly about not imposing things on others they find unfun. For your information I've played tabletop Battletech on and off for almost 20 years. There are lots of ways to have fun with it.
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Cray
05/04/12 08:46 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
And you missed my point.
Probably because Ix was talking about a different topic.
Since I don't want to lock the thread, how about everyone just take a breather and find something else to discuss, or go see the Avengers movie?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
05/04/12 09:41 AM
178.76.140.186
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As I said Cray he has his view, I have mine and if you had read the posting you will see that I said I was done since we are not seeing either's POV on this matter.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Prince_of_Darkness
05/06/12 03:15 PM
75.170.101.110
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Quote:
As I said Cray he has his view, I have mine and if you had read the posting you will see that I said I was done since we are not seeing either's POV on this matter.
Then why the hell did you start an argument over it.
------------
I thought I misread Ix's post, 'cause I don't remember seeing the Interface cockpit. But then I saw he had modified his post- sneaky sneaky 
Anyway, I might not be completely cut out for the whole "Crazy munch" thing, but I do have some ideas that have been banned from my gaming group; mostly because of the terrible levels of pants-wetting horror that they have conjured. Here's one with quite the story behind it:
Horseman War
Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-F
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 26,893,036 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,082
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 350 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 53.75 km/h (64.5 km/h)
Maximum Speed: 86.0 km/h (129.0 km/h)
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 240 meters
Armor: Unknown Light Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
6 ER Medium Lasers
1 Hatchet
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 107 points 7.00
Engine: XL Engine 350 15.00
Walking MP: 5 (6)
Running MP: 8 (12)
Jumping MP: 8 (Improved)
Jump Jet Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL 16.00
Heat Sinks: Double 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: Standard Gyro 4.00
Cockpit: Small 2.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA+H
TSM Locations: 1 LT, 3 LA, 2 RA
Armor: Light Ferro-Fibrous AV - 195 11.50
Armor Locations: 2 HD, 1 LT, 1 RT, 2 LA, 1 RA
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 8
L/R Torso 15 22
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 11 19
L/R Leg 15 25
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hatchet RA - 5 5.00
4 ER Medium Lasers LA 20 4 4.00
ER Medium Laser RT 5 1 1.00
Supercharger RT - 1 1.50
ER Medium Laser LT 5 1 1.00
Targeting Computer CT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 21
6/8j 2 2 0 0 3 2 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: TSM, MEL, ENE, SRCH, EEE, ES, SOA
Seems boring, right? It hardly even uses any experimental tech; hell, it's variant removes the supercharger for a standard cockpit and a 1/2 ton of armor.
The story is where it really shines. As a test, I took it up against a full lance of IS 3058-built mediums and a heavy, notably a pair of Starslayers, a DV-7D Dervish, and a CTS-6Y Cestus. On any ordinary fight, it would have put up some good resistance, as it's a largely mobile lance with good ranged firepower (and Starslayers!) and enough armor to carry the day.
This thing murdered. While it helped in that I seemed to gain initiative more than 2/3rds the time, every other 'mech just could not hit this damn thing when it was moving 8, not to mention a 28 point smack from it's hatchet could regularly score internal. TSM was easy as hell too- jump max and fire 5 of them. Bam. Done.
Edited by Prince_of_Darkness (05/06/12 03:16 PM)
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Karagin
05/06/12 05:59 PM
217.5.180.117
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Quote:
Quote:
As I said Cray he has his view, I have mine and if you had read the posting you will see that I said I was done since we are not seeing either's POV on this matter.
Then why the hell did you start an argument over it.
What argument? I am sorry if having a difference of opinion and saying so is considered an argument. If you want to talk about munchkin mechs you end up talking about the type of players that use them or have the need to use them. So the two IN MY OPINION go hand in hand, seeing that ix didn't agree with that OPINION I stepped out of things. Now why are you so worried about this unless you are wanting to start an argument, if so then enjoy arguing with your self. I have stated my stance, if you don't like it, fine no issue from me. So how about you let it rest and not jump in and try to stir up things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
05/06/12 09:17 PM
173.168.112.109
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Hey, anyone participating in this thread: Stick to the original topic of munchy 'Mechs or don't post.
This isn't the bloody Neveron section and I don't want to start tossing around formal warnings and bans, but I will. Any further references to the argument will get formal warnings under violations of posting rule 6. I don't care where or when you came into the argument, just drop it or the warning gets issued.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ix
05/06/12 09:18 PM
78.145.15.105
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That's a very nice design, Prince of Darkness. I'll have to have a think about non-experimental IS designs. TSM is definitely the way to go! I have a similar concept with a 100 ton mech with TSM, Claws and maxed mobility. Anything under 100 tons loses its leg to a single kick. =)
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Prince_of_Darkness
05/09/12 03:13 PM
75.170.101.110
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Thanks. It's interesting to see what you can do with only tourney-legal stuff.
I've got a few more ideas here, if I can find the suckers...
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KamikazeJohnson
05/14/12 09:30 PM
74.198.150.252
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Personally, I think my WTF Water Fork is the munchiest 'Mech ever, but that's just my opinion 
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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