chez
12/10/04 12:02 PM
62.173.81.122
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I was playing the other day and I got crucified by a drone\TAG\artillery combination. Afterwards I thought that the best way to combat this would be to "cut the head off the snake" and eliminate the drone controller. I remember reading in a forum somewhere that someone (Cray or Karagin?) uses something similar and was wondering if there were any rules for radio direction finding or triangulation.because in real life the drone controller would have to radiate continuously on as many frequencies as drones it was controlling thus standing out like a man playing hide and seek in a dark room whilst wearing 200 fairy lights.Once located it would be a short but exciting life for the drone controller (time-on-target barrages tend to make a real mess of most things). 
I know the US Army have a helicopter (Quickfix) designed specifically for this purpose so I am sure a BT VTOL could be modified for the same mission given rules for RDF.
Equally in the absence of artillery to give the good news would it be possible to jam the signal controlling the drones hopefully giving them flight parameters of a house brick.
Any help or info much appreciated
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Silenced_Sonix
12/11/04 12:12 PM
168.209.97.34
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Pulse lasers and a targetting computer, or lots and lots of LB-X cannons - that normally solves most airborne problems.
Although that is not quite what you wanted, I guess...
Evolve or Die
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Karagin
12/12/04 12:48 AM
65.132.126.51
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As a home tech item my group uses something called Shell Fall Radar. It's a 2 ton item that tracks incoming rounds and gives an idea of where they are coming from etc...mostly used with vehicle bases arty units, one player has a mech with Arrow IV on it that has the radar in use.
For standard games, I normally try to take out the control unit via Long range fire or Thunder missiles if I can. Or some simple ECM will do the trick nicely.
Let me dig around in my files and will see if I can't find the Shell Fall Radar write up and post it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Ignorant_Savage
12/12/04 10:27 PM
24.158.24.134
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hmmm.. i'd probably use a headhunter 'mech like a exterminator or a spector.. probably not what you're looking for either, but it does get the job done 
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Greyslayer
12/13/04 02:18 AM
216.14.192.234
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I personally have always classified drone carriers in the same category as LAMs (Land-Air_mechs) or outside the technological parameters of even the highest level technology in the game... ie LAMs as a tech are more powerful than any individual clan technology, so too I classify this technology as the same. Anyway now that the gripe is out of the way looking at the question at hand:
ECM is the simplest answer, even without cutting off the head the Units would have to be trying to TAG you outside of short range or be unable to lock on you. They also lose all control until they have left the ECM "Bubble", thus continuing their course, quite handy in confined terrain really .
Thunder minefields, or burning hexes (infernoes etc) is another handy thing here, the burning hexes in particular as smoke is handy cover from their to-hit numbers until you can surround them in fire ... then BURN , If you want to play cheesey since they are then use Dodgey Liao LRM ammo types such as their improved thunder stuff, does 7 hexes instead of one so aim at the hex the unit is in and surround it in minefields.
Here is another important aspect. Knowing the travel time of the artillery piece. Knowing how far away they are firing from can also mean you can cause the attacks to fail altogether, this is because fast moving units can be on a different mapboard thus increasing travel time of the shot or have the shot land in the area with nothing to hit.
Also note just because a vehicle has the drone technology doesn't mean they are not controlling it from some bunker somewhere instead or a protected vehicle bunker.
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Nightward
12/15/04 03:10 AM
203.214.146.15
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Working my way through the replies right now, but a few things spring to mind:
-ECM blanket. Simple, effective, obvious.
-Nemesis iNARC ammo. Hit some of his friendlies with Nemesis rounds, and watch the fun. I can garuantee he won't mess around if he risks dropping 20 point lots on his own units.
-ECM iNARC ammo. ECM the Drone; it drops and doesn't get back up again, because it can't dislodge the round. Either that or ECM the carrier, since that isolates the entire network.
-Counter-Battery Fire. This is a Level 3 rule, and I only remember it vaguely. It might be in Maximum Tech, or in the old BT Tactical handbook.
-Use C3 and show him how it's really done.
Or I could just be hallucinating. These days, it gets hard to tell 
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
12/15/04 10:39 AM
147.160.136.10
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ECM, ECM everywhere. Have some small, fast units of your own move ECM suites into range of the drones. Watch the drones crash.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Toontje
12/15/04 01:53 PM
84.24.165.226
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Nightshade VTOL's are handy for this, fast and not really terrain bound.
Rather to blow up, then.
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chez
12/15/04 09:38 PM
62.173.81.122
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The thing is with ECM I find it a bit too powerful as for very little tonnage (i can't remember how heavy they are and I am apart from my books at the moment) you stop NARC , Artemis, C3 , radio, radar etc etc. I feel it has come to the point where almost all designs of medium weight and upwards should carry one if only to counter the accursed C3 system that seems to be proliferating at the moment. Although this could be due to the fact that I play with people who stray into the munchkin categery ie find a winning system and stick with it until a countermeasure is discovered.
Which was the whole point of the thread as I would stake my house on the same player using the same system next time we play.
Anyway, Going back to my crusade against ECM, in real life electronic-counter-countermeasures (ECCM) are a way of life eg frequency agile radars and radios or home-on-jam missiles AIM-54c Phoenix has that capability.
Could we develop a BT equivalent (although I accept that this would slow the game down and could result in 100 ton mechs with 47 tons ECM\ECCM equipment and a small laser)
Maybe I should just accept that there is no way to translate a real battlefield (whether it be 21st or 31st century) on to a map sheet 
Thank you all for your input and any further ideas\solutions much appreciated
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Greyslayer
12/16/04 03:48 AM
216.14.192.234
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I see some misconceptions and a clear need to read up a book called MaxTech.
ECM and C3:
ECM can block C3 if the unit is inside the ECM 'bubble' or the unit with ECM is between the C3 unit and other units (like a electronic LOS block).
If a unit is say 7 hexes away with C3 and a LRM carrier with C3 fires some 20 hexes away it still gets the bonus for firing only at 7 hexes since it is outside of the ECM bubble.
With TAG in the same instance locking on the unit outside of the bubble is still a valid lock. All this causes is that the TAG units have to engage at at least medium range.
Now with MaxTech:
As Nightward vaguely mentioned there is counter-battery fire rules within the rule book.
Also ECCM rules exist (all you use is the ECM, but set it in the previous end phase to ECCM. this counters one ECM.
If you want a really really cheesey weapon from an outdated btech source, try the EMP Warheads from Tactical Handbook (I think). A weapons that gives feedback to those units with ECMs currently at the time the weapons hit.
If you do want a non-ecm method of taking out the drones try the dodgey liao thunder munition, 7 hexes of thunder for the price of 1 (well sort of).
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Cray
12/16/04 08:00 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
The thing is with ECM I find it a bit too powerful as for very little tonnage (i can't remember how heavy they are and I am apart from my books at the moment) you stop NARC , Artemis, C3 , radio, radar etc etc.
Within a very small area of effect, yes.
And without it, you face weapon systems that are very powerful for their tonnage. A 1-ton TAG unit on an expendable drone can call in a company of artillery fire.
[edit] Second thought: So what if ECM jams Narc, Artemis, and C3? A Narc- or Artemis-equipped LRM boat is still able to shoot you, and C3 units just have worse target numbers - they just move in an shoot at you "old school." Hiding you from radar hardly matters unless the hidden unit is also hidden from visual inspection - otherwise the ECM masking is useless.
With the exception of drones, ECM only degrades most BT units' abilities. You go from L2 fanciness to L1 grittiness. L1 units will still kill you plenty good, and they probably have L2 gear unaffected by ECM (like double strength heat sinks, more weapons thanks to endosteel, etc.)
I wouldn't be shy of ECM just because it has broad-ranging effects. Its effects are also limited.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (12/16/04 08:42 AM)
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Nightward
12/16/04 08:43 PM
203.214.146.181
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Nah. The real point of using EMP missiles is inflicting an extra point of Heat per LRM that smacks 'em.
We used those retarded munitions once, and I took a Salamander loaded up with EMPs. In one turn, I inflicted an extra 52 heat (or something siilarly obscene) on my opponent, who promptly blew up from an ammo explosion.
EMP missiles are, with the possible exception of Tanden-Charge SRMs, the most broken thing ever put into print for BT. I say "possible" because TC warheads look really disgusting on SRM- heavy 'Mechs, like the Javelin or Kintaro. A bit of good luck, particularly on lighter 'Mechs, can see Tandem-Charge equipped units ripping of arms and legs fairly quickly. And if they manage to roll three Head hits, well...
With ECM bubbles, you've got a range of 6 hexes around the ECMing unit in which you're safe from being Tagged. That's a fair amount of room most of the time, and if you have two units per Lance with ECM, it gets even better.
Another option might be Battle Armour. I'm not sure if BA can be TAGged or not, but since normal Artillery does 5-point clusters of damage, you'd only loose one or two in a single firing round. Even if they can be TAGged, you'll only loose one.
Plan here would be to load up on Achileus (or maybe Infiltrator Mark II Suits, especially if you can drop in your opponent's home edge) and use them for spotting whilst your own units hide.
We'll call this the Greslayer Tactic, since this is one of his favourite techniques.
If you can't do that, move forwards as fast as possible (ECM-equipped APCs would be good here) and then disgorge the Infantry in the middle of the Artillery formation. Apparently these days Vehicles get really shafted on the Armour Facing Rules (as we discovered at the recent NedCon) and so they should be pretty easy to take care of from there, since artillery pieces tend to be a bit light on armour.
If it were me, I'd put together a Com Guard outfit that had C3i and iNARCs, along with Kanazuchi armour loaded in ECM-equipped APCs. Bit of a pity there's no Viking with C3i, but we can't have everything.
Base it around Tessens (fast, TAG, iNARC) and back it up with heavy firepower from Assualt types (perhaps Highlanders). Since you've got TAG yourself, maybe Chapparral tanks could be used, but I'd be more likely to go with LRM carries loaded with Semi-Guided munitions.
Finally, remember to pack Swarm, or better yet, iSwarm ammo. People using bombardment tactics tend to leave their long-ranged units packed tightly together, so Swarm would be a Godsend.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
12/17/04 02:41 AM
216.14.192.234
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Best Units for the attack on the Arty units would be Vtols.
LVL 3 you can pack them full of bombs (Karnov is a fav for this tactic) or use a Cav Attack Helicopter with infernoes and normal rounds to hammer mechs and vehicles alike. Either that or have units like Karnovs carrying battlearmour and do a stop drop right in amongst the units for some real fun.
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chez
12/17/04 01:00 PM
62.173.81.122
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Many thanks for all your replies. However ... confession time  - I'm a lvl1 guy with the occaisional foray into lvl2 for a change of scenery. Prior to me frequenting this site I would have mocked anyone who played lvl3 but reading other threads i am developing an interest in more advanced gear as it seems to be more encompassing than previous editions, An investment into Maxtech would seem to be on the cards. If nothing else I can't say something is cr@p unless I understand it.
I have read all the novels (including to my shame the mechwarrior series) so have a good idea what the new gear is but not the game mechanics of how they work.
So:-
EMP missiles
Tandem charge
All forms of battlearmor apart from the original elemental
C3i (improved C3?)
iNARC (improved Narc?)
Viking
Semi guided munitions
Nemesis iNarc
"dodgy Liao thunder munitions"
These are all a foreign language to me  however I will endeavour to learn.
On a final note I posed the same problem to another mate who said "Easy, just orbitally bombard a few mapsheets until the artillery stops!!"
Thanks , very helpful
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Nightward
12/17/04 07:11 PM
203.214.145.80
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Heh. Scott has a limitless hat of anything more advanced, rules-wise, than Inferno rockets. Or at least, so it seems...
Any way, all the rules for the stuff we've suggested can be found in the BMR (Revised).
Achileus and Infiltrator suits are nasty; dedicated Stealth units. +1 to-hit at Short range, +4 at Medium, and +7 at Long range. Infiltrators are better at air dropping in, have better range (but poorer damage) than other suits, and even ECM the hex they're in.
C3i is a Com Guard innovation that links up units of 6 (ie, a Level I unit), but can't extend beyond that. On the other hand, C3i is modular; it has no Command unit, so the system can't be taken down if one 'Mech falls.
The Viking is a 90-ton fire support 'Mech from TR: 3060; it has dual LRM-20s over dual LRM-15s, equipped with Artemis. Would be hideous if there was a refit with C3i, but so far at least, no joy on that front.
EMP and tandem Charge munitions can be found in the Out-of-Print BattleTech Tactical Handbook. In all honesty, you're better off without it; the stuff in there is just so broken it's not even funny.
The other munitions are all in the BMR.
iNARC is a new Com Guard innovation; it fires NARC ammo that is better than usual and over a greater distance. iNARC can fire Nemesis pods, which cause munitions fired with guidance (Arrow IV, LRMs with Semi-Guided, NARC, or Artemis ammo) to strike the unit hit with a Nemesis pod instead of the actual target.
Unsurprisingly, I'm a big fan of the Nemesis pods, and if I get a chance to go to a tournement allowing C3, I'll be going in with a Com Guard outfit
iNARC can also lob ECM rounds, which ECM the target.
Best way to beat a twink or munchkin is to play their game right back at 'em. Have fun.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
12/18/04 12:45 PM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
Heh. Scott has a limitless hat of anything more advanced, rules-wise, than Inferno rockets. Or at least, so it seems...
Quite untrue. I am very limited in what I can do, or perhaps, what I am willing to do in a game.
Where the real variation comes in are the rules governing any given scenario or tournament. Bending them (those rules) is where I probably take down most players.
An example here is the fact we are discussing Level 3 yet failed to discuss increased artillery damage rules mentioned in level 3 (eg Long Tom round does 20 damage in the contact hex 15 in all surrounding hexes, 10 damage in all hexes one further out and 5 damage in the next out again. Far better than wasting extensive resources trying to TAG something as they don't have the ability to replace any drones lost under current technology retraints etc). Tanks also under level 3 become cumbersome in movement while becoming tougher and more accurate (revised hit locations and motive crit tables and dedicated gunners negating movement modifiers on only selected weapons). I would have to take all this into account before defining the force I select for the conflict. Arming up for a anti-arty operation only to find they have a 'mass mug' up and close force can find you well and truly short (ie using vtols to take out stationary arty is good, trying to hit a Saracen before it blows the back out of some of your mechs is another matter).
Quote:
C3i is a Com Guard innovation that links up units of 6 (ie, a Level I unit), but can't extend beyond that. On the other hand, C3i is modular; it has no Command unit, so the system can't be taken down if one 'Mech falls.
Neither C3 or C3i feature highly in most choices of forces I look at. This probably is because I found it so easily negated by ECM. Forces I generally fielded do not always have an ECM (most tourneys really restricted numbers of units thus meaning C3/C3i not being able to get the full benefit). Omni-mechs are very useful against C3/C3i forces since you can pick ECM variants if you need too, or select the right configuration to take out the 'range finders'. I cannot remember if smoke blocks LOS for C3/C3i though, I would research this if I'd expect an opponent being capable of fielding a nasty C3/C3i force.
Quote:
EMP and tandem Charge munitions can be found in the Out-of-Print BattleTech Tactical Handbook. In all honesty, you're better off without it; the stuff in there is just so broken it's not even funny.
No more broken than much of the new stuff brought out by the ordinary writers of the capcon equipment etc.
Quote:
Unsurprisingly, I'm a big fan of the Nemesis pods, and if I get a chance to go to a tournement allowing C3, I'll be going in with a Com Guard outfit
Or wobbie considering they are fairly similar in army lists  . It would be funny as I might ressurrect my 'Black Dragon Society' force to have some fun. Its good when a 'joke' army comes together
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chez
12/18/04 01:42 PM
62.173.81.122
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I read your post giving more info about the new power armours and for the first time I can see a battlefield use for armoured infantry. The original elementals were in my opinion to slow (unless hanging on to a Dasher with MASC ) and my group of players just avoided them until near the conclusion of the battle and then dealt with them from a distance (even then it was no greater than medium range for most weapons). Because of this elementals have ceased to be a major part of our forces.
If however these new "stealth suits" can allow infantry to get up close and personal before the hapless mech pilot even knows they are there then BADABING!! I hope they still have the claw. Nothing better than seeing a mech rolling around on the ground trying to dislodge a point of elementals.
Equally deep strike becomes a viable option. The fluff is full of situations where fixed positions are overrun with elementals. Normally with terminal consequences for any brass inside eg Sharon Bryan.
All that is required is a survivable delivery platform - A nice small speedy dropship "That will do nicely sir!!"
All of this means that a true combined arms force is now a real possibility. It could be a war (tounament) winner you know.
When it comes to other kit mentioned is it safe to assume that nemesis overrides all other narcs on the battlefield? What if there are two Nemesis rounds in play?
I just thought , Ihope my opponents haven't found this site or I could be in for a shock
As was mentioned , if you set up for one sort of battle and get something else your in trouble.
As the man said " I'd hate to be the guy who brought a knife to a gunfight"
cheers
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Nightward
12/18/04 06:16 PM
203.214.144.102
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Heh. Yeah. It's just that every time I hear you, you're railing against some Level 2 "innovation"
I'm not sure about the Artillery damage; I've never seen anything like that. Then again, I skipped over the artillery sections, since we don't really use stuff like that in tournament or friendly play.
C3 can only be disrupted by an ECMing unit between two C3ed units. Granted, a lot of ECM units are fast, but it sould not be too hard to avoid that sort of thing, especially if your spotting unit is a fast mover, say the new Hussar or the Tessen. I think C3 would be a bit too insane in tournaments now, primarily due to the fact that it is now mixed with other things. When it was a DCMS item (and as it really should have stayed, since the DCMS now has nothing that makes it unique or gives it an advantage- but I digress...), it wasn't too bad because the machines with C3 weren't all that flash. These days, though, I would be extremely loath to allow it, because I can about garauntee someone will show up with somthing like the RSU Javelin or Centurion backed by a Naginata or similar. The options are broken, because now the prime choices for a C3 network carry Targeting Computers.
LOS is determined as usual for C3; C3 only means that you get to use the best to-hits available. OTOH, it does let you fire through areas you'd otherwise have no LOS, such as 3+ hexes of Woods, so long as the "spotter" still has LOS.
***
Chez: The newer types of Battle Armour mean that, yes, they're much better choices. For the Clans, the new two prime choices are Salamanders (anti-Mech and heat) and Gnomes (survivability and massive damage).
The Inner Sphere suits are a bit messy; the DCMS got shafted on those stupid Kage Platoons, in which only one member (!) carries an anti-mech weapon. Great work from the DEST, supposedly the best infantry available in the Inner Sphere.
Other suits, like Achileus or Infiltrators, are quite nasty, especially if you have them in APCs. The new Fa Shih suits aren't bad; they can clip onto and ride normal 'Mechs instead of Omnis, and lay minefields.
All IS suits (save the Kanazuchi) can make anti-Mech attacks. The Kanazuchi doesn't really need to be capable of making AM attacks, though; it carries a Medium Laser and a pair of OS SRM-2s...and has 15 points of armour. Hehe.
BTW, never bother with Swarm attacks. A sinple Leg attack is better; you get improved chances of hitting, and you get an outright crit check against the leg. Also, you score damage in a single turn, instead of wasting a turn climbing around.
Nemesis rounds work by LOS, so they don't drag everything towards them. It might be more difficult to get LRM fire to hit Nemesised opponents, but if they're hurling guided artillery at you, you're gold, because everything on the targeted mapsheet is "in LOS". Ooops.
IMO, if Battle Armour had been developed before 'Mechs (and realistically, it should have been), there would be no real use for 'Mechs at all. If i were setting up a Merc unit for the IS, I'd go all Battle Armour; even if I couldn't get the nifty stuff like Achileus suits (but you might; after all, they're FWLM and the FWLM exists solely to make money) you still have options like GDL Scout Armour and Standard IS Armour. Add in some Badger APCs or even some hover APCs, and the unit is probably just as capable (if not more so) as an equal-weight 'Mech force, at least for the sort of contracts a merc unit like that would search for.
As for the BA in tournaments? Yeah. This one we know. Scott was reminding us a few weeks ago of when he did that; he had some LRM tanks that he hid whilst the Achileus units spotted for bombardments. I don't think he took any 'Mechs that time- but then, he didn't need to.
The only real problem with BA is movement. Compared to 'Mechs, they can't keep up with the pace of battle and really need APCs or to drop in to be of real use...unless you're wearing them as ablative armour on your OmniMechs, which isn't as dumb an idea as it sounds.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
12/20/04 01:14 AM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
unless you're wearing them as ablative armour on your OmniMechs, which isn't as dumb an idea as it sounds.
*gripe starts*Now this is one of my bigger gripes. Really stupid weight limit rules (half movement from carrying 10%+ mech's weight) yet no restriction on a dasher carrying 5 tones (or 25% of its own mass) about. I don't care about the handles they ride on etc, the carrying rules don't go into how to avoid the limitations thus the mechs carrying over those limit SHOULD not be able to come on the battlefield unhindered. *gripe finishes*
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Toontje
12/20/04 05:21 PM
84.24.165.226
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infiltrator only get +0/+3/+6 (+1 for being BA).
ECM: I tend to use at least 1 ECM/lance, more if going stealth. Somehow my opponents don't use a lot of C3. Now my gaming group is rather conservative in equipment one can use, so most faction-specific equipment remains faction only. Like the thunder-augumented, used sparingly it's powerfull but not munch, as long as one doesn't employ a LRM-5 carrier. (24x7 hexes of 2 damage?). But the most overpowered faction would be FS, TC+RAC/5 combination.
Rather to blow up, then.
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chez
12/22/04 12:51 PM
62.173.81.122
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Quote "Heh. Yeh. It's just every time I hear you you are railing against some level 2 'innovation' "
I don't mean to but (at the risk of horrendous thread drift) I was very happy with the original game but with the advent of the clans and their ridiculous equipment the game became unbalanced on a number of issues:-
1 When playing a set battle "un clan like" actions can be called into question. ie. failure to follow the strict zellbriggen code which is the only thing that comes close to balancing out the horrendous advantage clans have due to their modern equipment. Thus it was necessary to have game referee type person who would edudicate on such actions.
2 The contempt the clans show for IS forces early on in the drive for Terra meant that the clan player should give up tactically superior positions etc to charge headlong into battle with the weak and inferior stravag bandit caste money warriors. Again un-clan- like but you try telling a player that he HAS to give up his hull down, 22 hexs away heavy woods position to charge into a barrage of concentrated fire from whatever IS forces are opposing. The clans removed the autonomy of a player and forced him into acting like a shark in a feeding frenzy to retain game balance.
Now I appreciate that this probably held true only at the start of the clan invasion and probably not at all in clan V clan battles but this was the time when the first lvl2 stuff came out and we didn't like it. So we pretty much stopped playing it and thus never progressed to lvl3.
In campaigns I don't mind having restrictions imposed on the way I play - that's roleplaying and I like it. I even use Mechwarrior 2nd edition as that allows campaigns to progress to 3050 and then see how long we last . The record by the way is a mixed weight company survived 2 separate engagements with clan stars before succumbing to a binary of Jade Falcon omnis. We even had some salvaged clan kit and still got obliterated.
We even tried using IS refits but unless you go berserk on which mechs you choose you still get beaten and as we mostly played campaigns we could not realistically justify laying our hands on Highlanders Atlas's etc
It's not like I don't understand that FASA/Wizkids/whoever owns BT now has to come out with new concepts to stop the game stagnating but the clan concept was fundamentally flawed from day one although I admit it did make for good fluff. But BT is about the game not the fiction that follows it not the other way around.
Anyway, rant over, apologies to anyone who has posted and/or read similar tirades before but that has been 15 years coming and I feel a lot better now I have got it off my chest. 
MERRY CHRISTMAS
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Nightward
12/22/04 11:19 PM
203.214.145.148
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Bah. The Clans are fine. No advantage is overpowering, just irritating. The problem (as laid out in one of the novels) is that you can't beat Clan tech using Inner Sphere tactics.
By which we mean "if a Clan force is fighting using IS tactics, you cannot beat it", not "Clan PWNZ j00, 1nn3r5ph3r3 n008s!"
That aside, sitting at maximum range and sniping is not "un-Clanlike". It's not dumb to shoot from a distance instead of runing up to the mixed lance of Hunchbacks, Centurion AHs, and Atlases.
If you've had bad experiences with the Clans in the past, it's the players and not the tech base. Trust me. If your opponent is an arsehat, he'll be an arsehat in Level 1, Level 2, or Level 3.
In all honesty, by 3060 IS tech is starting to rival Clan gear. Some items, such as MRMs and R-A/Cs are in fact superior to what the Clans possess. By the end of the Twighlight of the Clans and the FedCom Civil War, IS units can now well and truly stand up to the Clans and in many cases are far superior.
Especially the Capellan Confederation, who have Kai Allard clones in every single 'Mech...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Greyslayer
12/23/04 01:15 AM
216.14.192.234
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It wasn't just the technology that the Clans had the advantage over the IS in.
You had vet/elite units (clan vet equivalent to IS Elite pilots) against predominantly reg/green forces of various states of readiness early on. Even in the current level the IS still don't field troops as good in piloting and gunnery as the clans do so 1 on 1 clanners would still 'own'. Simple logic, oh and I think the technology is still ahead of IS by a good part of a country mile as well.
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Silenced_Sonix
12/23/04 02:15 PM
168.209.97.34
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You want gripe? Read the AeroTech rules: a fighter-carried bomb that does 100-points of damage reduces the fighter's thrust by 2. This means an assault fighter like the Scytha (90t) can carry a maximum of two of these bombs (thrust reduced to a minimum of 1), while a lighter unit like the Seydlitz (20t) can carry five of these bombs and still have a thrust of 1. It basically means that small, fast fighters are better bombers than bigger, slower designs - explain the logic behind that one to me!
Ah, but I guess we should not complain - after all, FASA has done so much for us with this wonderful game...
Evolve or Die
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Nightward
12/23/04 04:42 PM
203.214.145.122
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I dunno. Judging by the last few Field Manuals, the Great Houses managed to clone Kai Allard for pilots, Morgan Hasek-Davion for operational leadership, and Anastasius Focht for overall command.
The reason the Clans bit so deep early was surprise and the fact that they were attacking periphery garrison units. Contact with worlds that far away from the heart of the Inner Sphere was not heavy, so the Clans came in a fair way before anyone really woke up to what was happening.
Personally, I think the opening stages of the Invasion were fairly realistic; however, the IS should probably have pulled out all the stops and driven them out after Tukayyid. Only author fiat prevented that.
It's well known that the Clans still have a skill and tech advantage- it's just not as much of a factor as it used to be. Most IS Heavies are more than a match for Clan Mediums these days...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Silenced_Sonix
12/24/04 04:56 PM
168.209.97.34
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Yes, and then you get munchkin items for the Clans like ER Pulse lasers, the (monstrous) RAC/20 and Streak LRM racks.
Here is a question: why is the use of reactive armor so scarce? I read through the rules, and from what I understand, it provides doubled defense against missiles as a bonus, and then the possibility of losing all armor on the location should one of the reactive armor crits be hit as a penalty. Since this normally only happens once all the armor is gone anyway, it seems to be a really good bargain to me. Anyone else been working with it?
Evolve or Die
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Nightward
12/26/04 03:54 AM
203.214.144.86
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'Cos if you're playing Level 3, you miht as well go for Hardened (Heavy?) Armour or Patchworked Ferro-Fibrous/Heavy (for the cockpit).
Reactive armour is a low-end armouring option in Level 3.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Silenced_Sonix
12/26/04 10:06 AM
196.39.87.99
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Well, Hardened armor weights too much, and Heavy Ferro takes up 21 crits, making it pretty much impractical on large 'Mechs. Reactive, on the other hand, gives 16 points of armor per ton, and 14 crits to fill - distributed mainly between the legs and arms, it works fairly well.
Question: are there rules for making arm-mounted shields, and if so, would it be possible to construct them from different types of armor? I was just thinking how a large, slow design like the Atlas might use a arm-mounted shield to provide cover as it approached an artillery location, and then jettison the shield once in range for its own weapons.
Mental image: an Atlas carrying a massive slab of armor, CounterStrike Tactical Shield-style, in front of it as it walks into an heavy missile barrage from something like a Catapult or Salamander, then dumping the shield and blowing the enemy 'Mech to Kingdom Come with its close-range weapons.
Evolve or Die
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Nightward
12/26/04 06:41 PM
203.214.144.75
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There's no rules for shields. Not yet, any way; maybe that'll come when the MW: DA figures inevitably start carrying them.
In the aforementioned example, the Atlas should die when someone TAGs it as they start dropping Guided rounds on its head.
The only way to attack an artillery position is from above (Orbital Bombardment, Bombing/Strafing or Combat Drop)
The thing with Hardened Armour is that it lets you take double the punishment you would have in the first place. I have a 100-tonner sitting around on my hard drive that is fully kitted out for Level 3 Survival Warfare; Hardened Armour, the Armless Option, all the critical slots are armoured, ad nauseum.
Reactive and Glazed Armour aren't bad, but they pale compared to Hardened or Heavy armour.
Heavy Ferro-Firbous is really for lighter 'Mechs that have slots to spare, or for use on vehicles.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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chez
12/29/04 12:30 AM
62.173.81.122
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I hear ya fella and I agree that later on in the invasion as the IS adapted to the Clan way of warfare the the clans' easy successes started to fade away. And by reading the fluff and listening to informed opinion on this site the new IS kit looks pretty tasty (especially CapCon stuff).
Reading on through the thread i noted that there are now many types of armour. Combined with new weapons , electronics etc it must make Lvl3 mech design a lot of fun (though 8100dy complicated) as variants on a chassis should be practically infinite especially if all the gear is "omni".
Do the IS have all omnis now ? I am aware of the Blackjack and Templar are there any more?
It must put a lot of uncertainty in the game as you never really know what you are up against until it opens fire on you
Anyway-Note to self: Must buy Maxtech
Will buy, absorb, and have more cogent argument
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Nightward
12/29/04 04:20 AM
203.214.145.95
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The Draconis Combine deployed the first Inner Sphere OmniMech, the Raptor in time for TR: 3058. They started exporting the Blackjack and Firestarter OmniMechs to the other Great Houses, who used the designs to crash-start their own OmniMech deployment schedule. The FWLM deployed the Perseus in 3059, with other OmniMechs (the Arctic Fox co-developed with the ARDC and WiE, the Hauptmann and the Men Shen) appearing in TR: 3060. The Templar is a newer development, somewehere around 3065 IIRC.
Personally, I think Tancred traded down when he swapped his Nightstar for a Templar. Those things blow. TC, great. R-A/Cs, great. Dumb-arse weapons profiles, 3/5 movement, unimpressive arour and an XL Engine? Not so great.
The only Omnis worth your time and effort are the Raptor (ER Medium Laser variant, TR 3060), the Men Shen (vicious in all incarnations) and the ER Laser variant on the Firestarter. For just about everything else, there's a standard 'Mech that's at least as good, if not far better.
The IS Omnis were still built with the "jack of all Trades" ideal for the most part, and so carry a grab-bag of weapons which may or may not be really up to scratch.
Personally, I steer clear of Level 3. All the toys you really need are available at Level 2; optional extras like Null Signature and Targeting can be added on according to fluff (Exterminator gets Null Sig, Rifleman gets anti-Air, etc).
Designing things at Level 3 could be interesting, but it becomes a major twinkfest as the power creep issue kicks into overdrive. If you allow open slather with the Level 3 tech, be prepared for the fallout...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Silenced_Sonix
12/30/04 05:52 PM
168.209.97.34
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Question: is there not already a Firestarter Mech in use by the Inner Sphere? Thirty-five tons, armed with a bunch of flamers and fancy electronics? Why another 'Mech with the same name?
Evolve or Die
Edited by Silenced_Sonix (12/30/04 05:56 PM)
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chez
12/30/04 05:58 PM
62.173.81.122
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One thing I have noticed is the prevarication of multiple Gauss Rifle assault mechs eg Nightstar hauptman, pillager, devastator. This to me seems strange as the IS discovered that mobile warefare was the only way to beat the clans. To design mechs that inherently are going to be tied to long supply lines (some light years long) seems to be a flawed design from the onset. i would have thought faster, medium weight energy boats would have been the way to go .
Slow assault mechs are gagging to outmanouvered, outflanked or just plain outfought by hit-and-run slashing attacks by mobile energy platforms that can afford to move 10plus hexes and still fire 1 or 2 ERLL/ERPPC from the limit of long range (which exceeds the GR's range).
Like I have said before I do play LVL2 just not often. I prefer the grittiness of LVL1 as the mechs are so balanced it becomes a true test of tactical skill on the battlefield as regardless of the mechs chosen both players are fully aware of it's (and any variants) capabilities and deal with it accordingly.
This whole thread came about because of a battle that I lost at the choosing of forces stage not on the battlefield itself which is nigh on impossible to do at LVL1 .
I suppose all that is required would be to impose restrictions on the types of forces used within the weight limit (I don't use BV,CV C-Bills or any other equivalent) but that was something we didn't need to do at LV1 and so haven't got into the habit of doing.
On the plus side a campaign in the FedCom civil war looks really interesting and with my renewed faith in the 3050plus galaxy I shall take to it with gusto.
Now, anyone want to try and talk me into MWDA (joke, don't know anything about it)
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Nightward
12/30/04 06:18 PM
203.214.145.241
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In actuality, the Gauss Rifle is the only IS weapon that even gets close to matching its Clan counterpart; same damage, same range, same heat...3 tons heavier and a little larger crit-wise. The Nightstar and Pillager are both vicious, vicious machines (especially the Nightstar) and the Thunderhawk (particularly the TDK-7KMA) is nasty as well.
Although these designs aren't massively mobile, they can take a beating and dish it out as well. The idea appears to be concentrated damage from range. Although you can't beat the Clans at their own game, having a Thunderhawk or whatever snipe whilst skirmishers (such as Nightskys) close in makes for a devastating assualt.
Mediums, whilst fast, don't provide enough advantages. Clan pilots are usually able to hit units that rely on speed instead of armour; these units are typically also a bit light on for weapons and so can't do much against Clan 'Mechs with their heavier armour.
Basically, a Clan Light is the rough equal of an IS Medium, a Clan Medium is the rough equal of an IS Heavy, and there are very few Clan Heavies that can't paste IS Assualts.
BVs aren't a bad way of balancing forces, but after conversations wth Greyslayer at the last tournament we played in, I'm really starting to agree with him that BV only works by eras. So, when you play a game, put an upper limit on tech bases that can be uses- limit it to Level One tech, 3058 tech, or 3058+ tech.
As he pointed out, a Wraith is worth less BVs than a Level 1 Griffin...
Sonix: The Firestarter is indeed a 35-ton arson machine. The FS9-O Firestrter OmniMech appears in TR: 3058 and is a 45-ton OmniMech. It was built (like the BlackJack Omni) to take advantage of existing production capabilities in the other Successor states; factories producing Firestarters could be upgraded to produce the new FS9-O series instead.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/02/05 03:43 PM
168.209.97.34
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Yes, sorry on that question: I checked it out myself after posting and found the answer pretty plausible. My bad.
Evolve or Die
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Nightward
01/02/05 05:04 PM
203.214.145.117
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Eh. Not everyone has an encyclopaediac knowledge about BT.
On the other hand, I couldn't learn the Krebs Cycle at Uni despite four years of effort, so it's not all that great a claim to fame any way.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/02/05 06:31 PM
168.209.97.34
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Krebs? That is quite easy, actually. Did it in my last year of school.
In the sitosol surrounding the mitochondria, 2 ATP is used to spilt the glucose molekule (6-Carbon) into two 3-Carbon molecules, which, in turn, each release 2 ATP molecules. At the end of this phase, you have 2 3-C molecules and 2 free ATP.
In the second cycle, the 3-C molecule now loses one of its carbons in the form of released CO2, and joins the 4-C molecule inside the Krebs to make another 6-C molecule. This is then also broken down, bit by bit, by releasing H-atoms (to form ATP and NADH2) and CO2 (thus reducing the carbon-count in the molecule). By the time it has just 4 carbons left, it is joined by another 2-C bond from outside, and the cycle simply starts over.
Bleh... I am not trying to be a wise-ass, but I though I would share that with you.
"Keep da faith, Brother!"
Evolve or Die
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Nightward
01/03/05 12:04 AM
203.214.147.120
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Dude. I have a degree in Biochemistry.
The complexity comes in when you're expected to be able to diagram the cycle, name every single molecule involved (including enzymes and their co-factors), as well as be able to draw most of them (using standard organic chemistry conventions).
Just to keep things amusing, we were expected to be able to know what metabolic disorders could occur if certain parts of the cycle couldn't be carried out.
There's an entire second-year subject devoted to it. I spent 6 months going over the Kreb's Cycle in excruciating detail.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Wraith
01/03/05 12:06 AM
68.67.32.114
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On the Nightstar vs. Templar: NSR-9J is 3/5 with an XL engine. I don't like the Templar much, but just had to comment that the Nightstar has some failings as well.
-Wraith
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Nightward
01/03/05 01:21 AM
203.214.147.120
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The Nightstar has full armour for its size, and wields 2 Gauss Cannon, an ER PPC, and two Medium Pulse Lasers. I'd back it over the Templar any day of the week.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
01/03/05 01:22 AM
203.214.147.120
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The Nightstar has full armour for its size, and wields 2 Gauss Cannon, an ER PPC, and two Medium Pulse Lasers. I'd back it over the Templar any day of the week.
The Templar's weapons configurations are set up funny. The newer Tancred and the other one from TR: 3067 were better, but the base models presented in FM: FedSuns were pretty iffy.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Wraith
01/03/05 01:28 AM
68.67.32.114
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I agree, Nightstar is better...
Just noticed, HMP shows Templar as moving 4/6, sometimes 4/6/4. Especially the jumping could give it an edge in some situations, although unless it was Neveron I'd rather have a NSR.
-Wraith
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Nightward
01/03/05 02:13 AM
203.214.147.120
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Is it? I thought the Templar was a 3/5'er...
That makes the Templar better in my opinion, but still down the list as far as Assualts go.
Best assualt (IMO) goes to the Viking, with the Hauptmann not far behind.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Toontje
01/03/05 08:30 AM
84.24.165.226
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Viking is the 100t LRM boat, right? I don't fancy that one much, it's too vulnerable to close assault type thingies like the Ti Ts'ang. Would have killed 2 of them in 2 mediumscale battles if it where not for time contraints, and that while it was supported by sufficient numbers of mediums and heavies. At range it's scary but I prefer to trade my Ti Ts'ang for it to take it out, and come out ahead BV-cost wise.
But maybe you gotta love the Lyran mentality to combat to love most of their 'mechs.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Greyslayer
01/03/05 11:02 AM
216.14.192.234
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Viking is a support unit. Its not meant to go toe-to-toe to short-ranged units. Both would work WELL together though.
Of course talking about BV few would crack up to the O-Bakemono, unless you start fielding units with TAG or C3 Master units (BV penalties then)
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Toontje
01/03/05 11:31 AM
84.24.165.226
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Wasn't meant to, but both occasions I describe saw it in action with enough support that one would expect no remotely succesfull headhunter attempt. It's just too high-profile IMO, with insufficient intrisical support.
Rather to blow up, then.
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Wraith
01/03/05 11:41 AM
68.67.32.114
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I am a big fan of the Pillager-3Z and the Cerberus MR-5M. Both are mobile for their size (3/5/3 and 4/6, respectively). Lots of armor on both, and decent weaponry.
I piloted a Viking once, there are some awesome upgrades to it if your unit survives against the Clans... Mine was stock and took out a pristine Sunder at range 21 (3 missile clusters to the head works every time ) The VKG-2G would be a nice bodyguard for the VKG-2F, as it packs a LPLAS, 3 MPLAS, LB-10X, and Gauss Rifle. Also gets max armor for a 90 tonner.
-Wraith
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Greyslayer
01/03/05 12:49 PM
216.14.192.234
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Don't get me wrong, I think if you truly want something to throw LRMs downrange then perhaps resources would be better spent on a vehicle to do so.
No Heatsinks required to keep the unit firing, 360o arc of fire with a Turret. Under Level 3 rules Tanks also become far more dangerous so something like the LRM variant of the Partisan with 4 x LRM15s just sits back and enjoys the pounding it hands out. Oh and its fairly cheap too in BV.
Also remember most LRM units prefer to fire indirect, I find vehicles better for this since they only need to hide behind a level 1 hill rather than find more secluded spots.
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Nightward
01/03/05 05:42 PM
203.214.145.185
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The reason I'm a fan of the Viking is the fact that it's got a Standard engine and a powerful loadout. The variant form is dangerous, and just as attractive as the LRM standard version.
either way, you don't particularly want to see a Viking as opfor.
As well as that, the Viking is the first time a dedicated LRM assualt 'Mech was built right. Other attempts, like the Salamander and so on are not bad, perhaps, but as a package deal don't measure up.
In that last tournament we saw how effective Elite pilots in LRM boats can be; I think it was Rod who took the Stalker with a 0/1 pilot. I just about shat myself when I discovered he only needed 7s to hit the BNC-3S Banshee I'd parked in his rear arc with two LRM-20s...
Blarg. The Viking fits my tactics a bit better than other assualts. When I field anything that heavy, I look for:
-Standard engine.
-Full armour.
-CASE.
-Good weapon vs heat ratio.
Not many Assualts match up to that. The ones that are able to control their heat often don't have armour that's too flash, or feature XL engines.
As for the Cerberus?
2 tons of explosive ammo mounted in the Centre Torso. Gauss Cannon adjacent to IS XL engines. Poor arm and leg armour. 'Nuff said...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/03/05 05:53 PM
168.209.97.34
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You guys obviously have a lot of experience in the field, so I would appreciate it if you could give me an opinion on on this design: the Imperius. It started as a sketch in one of my notebooks, and then grew into a challenge to see if I could fit everything from the picture into the chassis. Given your (expert) opinion, how would it fare in comparison to other assault designs that you have used?
Imperius (B)
Chassis: Unknown
Power Plant: Unknown 300
Cruising Speed: 32.25
Maximum Speed: 53.75
Jump Jets: none
Jump Capacity: none
Armor: Unknown with CASE
Armament:
2 Gauss Rifles
2 LRM 20s
2 Machine Guns
4 ER Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
Imperius
Technology Base: - Clan - Level 3 (Omni-Mech)
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: - EndoSteel 5
Engine: 300 19
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 14(28) - Laser 4
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 304 19
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 46
Center Torso(rear) 15
R/L Torso 21 32
R/L Torso(rear) 10
R/L Arm 17 34
R/L Leg 21 41
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
[Pod] ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
[Pod] ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
[Pod] Gauss Rifle Ammo LA 2 2
[Pod] Machine Gun Ammo (1/2 ton) LA 1 0.5
[Pod] Gauss Rifle LT 6 12
[Pod] LRM 20 LT 4 5
[Pod] LRM 20 Ammo - Artemis IV LT 1 1
Artemis IV LT 1 1
[Pod] Gauss Rifle RT 6 12
[Pod] LRM 20 RT 4 5
[Pod] LRM 20 Ammo - Artemis IV RT 1 1
Artemis IV RT 1 1
[Pod] ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
[Pod] ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
[Pod] Gauss Rifle Ammo RA 2 2
[Pod] Machine Gun CT 1 0.25
[Pod] Machine Gun CT 1 0.25
Evolve or Die
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Nightward
01/03/05 07:07 PM
203.214.145.185
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That's what the Designs forum is for, Sonix. I'll C&P this and my comments on it over there.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/05/05 04:20 PM
168.209.97.34
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Sorry - my bad.
Evolve or Die
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chez
01/05/05 06:14 PM
62.173.81.122
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I think if you truly want something to throw LRMs downrange then perhaps resources would be better spent on a vehicle to do so.
Yeah big time!! Any saving in BV could be used on something small and nippy to carry a NARC launcher, such as a hovercraft or VTOL - the choice is yours. At lvl1 I use LRM carriers a lot as a sort of on board artillery. Their armour is naff but a whole lance means 240 LRMs in the air at once. You gotta love that!
When it comes to assault design so few of the stock designs actually are anywhere near "maxed out". I suppose this is to allow player tweaking and room for expansion with new variants etc.
It doesn't take much to create a design at the top end of the weight spectrum that would be absolutely lethal against any book design eg Daishi-X megamunch, son of project Overkill.
Having seen the specs for the Viking it looks close to a really tight design but as stated , it's not an in-fighter so it doesn't look as munchy as a tweaked Hunchback's big brother
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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NewPharoah
12/06/06 06:33 PM
207.160.205.13
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An ECM VTOL would work against the drone.
Any rules I type should be considered unofficial unless stated otherwise by Precentor Martial Randall Bills and/or published Classic BattleTech products.
Edited by NewPharoah (12/06/06 06:34 PM)
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