Karagin
01/29/05 07:24 PM
65.129.166.111
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So far what you have posted is what I support.
I like BA as scouts and leave Protos as oddball units that are on the level as LAMs, that is up to me.
Over all the idea is to have fun is it not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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davion76
01/30/05 02:23 AM
12.219.244.44
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BA have other advantages.... like entering buildings. Could be vicious in a city battle. They can pull double duty as Marines for dropships/warships. etc
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Greyslayer
01/31/05 03:59 AM
216.14.192.234
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If anyone takes offence to the following I will apologise beforehand. I'm not trying to be offensive here, just showing how wrong one can be.
Quote:
Meanwhile BA is cheaper, and after looking at all of the CANON Protos, only two are cheaper then a single BA, so in the long run BAs are cheaper.
From Silenced Sonix well before this post:
Harpy: 614,559
Siren: 636,974
Satyr: 662,688
Centaur: 727,020
Hydra: 757,927
Roc: 839,388
Gorgon: 871,902
Minotaur: 946,556
Quote:
For the record I never claimed, unlike some, to be the know it all about the Protos, I said I have read the rules, and what info there is on them, beyond that having used them a few times isn't making me or anyone else an expert.
Thank goodness for that.
Also for the record I asked for information on Clan BA prices (no point in saying only using stock elementals against all different types of Protos when other versions of BA exist in the clans). Here is what Nightward posted:
Gnomes: 1,050,000 ea
Salamanders: 665,000 ea
Undines: 700,000 ea
Sylphs: 700,000 ea.
So not only are some Protos cheaper than the cheapest CANON BAs but Cheaper than the most expensive BAs as well. You must admit that the bit 'and after looking at all of the CANON Protos, only two are cheaper then a single BA, so in the long run BAs are cheaper' when in fact Wraith only posted two and did not say they were the only ones that were makes you look a little silly. If that post was your 'looking at all of the CANON Protos' then it was pretty ordinary research as there are at least THREE canon Protos cheaper (chassis, since there are canon variants about for most of the Protos) than the Base Clan Elemental unit.
You have been wondering why I have been on your back recently. Well its been shown above, the clear and easy to document lack of evidence used to back your claims up. You automatically assume something without, what seems to the reader, much research and to make matters worse you don't indicate that there is any chance of you being wrong (ie a person not certain or understanding that something may exist to prove them wrong would perhaps use words that would not paint themselves into a corner later such as you have).
Lets look at the post you gave and modify it slightly to take the 'I know all' look from it:
Taking into account the idea that the tech for Protos is, as far as I know, limited, thus most probably harder for the Clans to make and use as well as the genotype being less likely to be there for the other Clans, as well as retraining of the pilots to run the Protos should add more to the over all cost. Meanwhile BA on average are generally cheaper per unit, and after looking at all of the information I have on Protos, I can only find two that are cheaper then a single elemental, so in the long run elementals are more likely cheaper overall.
We now know the above is incorrect but it doesn't come across as you saying 'this is how it is' when in fact it isn't.
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Karagin
01/31/05 06:58 PM
65.132.126.249
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How can anyone be wrong on an idea of what makes a better scout for this game?
Sorry but you are doing nothing but attacking and trying hard to turn what should be a simple understand of different opinions on things into a flame war or worse.
Now even if three protos are cheaper then their BA counterparts singlely, that still dose not invaildate the idea that BA tech is proven and works, were as Proto tech is new and has flaws as well as other things working against it and not every Clan is going to be set upon using it. Just as most of the Clans have issues with nukes, one of them didn't, doesn't mean every Clan tosses them around just because they can.
Bottomline here is I don't agree with you and you don't like that, as to why I am not sure, but it's become pointless since you won't even entertain any other take on something.
Now I never claimed to be correct, I stated that BA is cheaperin the long run for them, which I stand by.
Thank you for point out that you want to argue for argument sake. I guess that is up to you if that is how you want to be about this topic. I am done with it. I have stated my take on the matter, you don't like it and that is fine. I will play HOW want and that is that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
01/31/05 09:39 PM
203.214.147.117
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But BA is not cheaper in the long run.
Elementals have the shortest life expectancy of any Clan phenotype, simply because of what they do. Each time one of them falls (how hard is it, really, to do 11 damage?), you have to breed, train up, and re-deploy another Elemental.
A ProtoMech, on the other hand, has Internal Structure-like a 'Mech- and can reasonably expect to survive longer than an Elemental.
I really doubt that the repair costs on ProtoMechs would compare with the constant turnover of Elementals.
Arguing price will get you nowhere in this, Karagin, because you are wrong. The numbers do not lie.
Arguing whether or not deploying them as scouts is a good idea is a valid point, but here people's opinions differ.
Either construct a decent argument, or let the matter drop.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
02/01/05 12:33 AM
65.129.164.42
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It is done as far as I am concerned.
I will stick to using BAs over Protos. End of story.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
02/01/05 01:54 AM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
But BA is not cheaper in the long run.
Elementals have the shortest life expectancy of any Clan phenotype, simply because of what they do. Each time one of them falls (how hard is it, really, to do 11 damage?), you have to breed, train up, and re-deploy another Elemental.
And imagine how much those big guys eat, sheesh I knew a guy in the army that was on double rations just to survive... a big boy and nowhere near as big as an elemental (for the record he was so big he couldn't do chinups as his head would get in the way of his bulging shoulders). Also note that elementals also have access to EI, this isn't limited to Protos you know.
Quote:
A ProtoMech, on the other hand, has Internal Structure-like a 'Mech- and can reasonably expect to survive longer than an Elemental.
Maxtech have rules to further 'nerf' elementals thus making Protos more powerful (glancing blows in Maxtech probably help Protos even more) in comparison to battlearmour. Though if using Maxtech you may as well use vehicles over either.
Quote:
I really doubt that the repair costs on ProtoMechs would compare with the constant turnover of Elementals.
Main difference between salvaging these guys and a normal mech is that you need to hose the centre torso out instead of the head 
Quote:
Arguing price will get you nowhere in this, Karagin, because you are wrong. The numbers do not lie.
Ignorance is bliss. I haven't seen him quote a source, or even quote areas he believes are incorrect. When shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is incorrect there is no acknoledgement instead just claims of 'flamebaiting' and arguing for the sake of it. Believe me, I prefer not to argue with (what seems to be) the mathematically challenged. Why do you think I did the trying to calculate a better than BV system, or the study into the best LRM launchers?
Quote:
Arguing whether or not deploying them as scouts is a good idea is a valid point, but here people's opinions differ.
Instead of valid arguments he tried to pull my personal experience into things not realising I was in a recon unit when I was in the military...  Really, both have specialisations within the scouting (recon) field. Going building to building then obviously Elementals would smash the Protos for effectiveness, but in the open or even light woods then elementals are very ineffective as a scout unit. The fact that Protos can more easily accomodate ECM and Probe equipment than a BA also indicates a serious advantage in this area. This still doesn't make BAs useless, just less the scouting specialist for all situations (and as I said I would still keep them about as engineers if anything else). Someone else mentioned their use as marines on ships, again a valid point.
Quote:
Either construct a decent argument, or let the matter drop.
Couldn't agree more. More should be expected from someone with such a long history with this forum.
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Silenced_Sonix
02/01/05 01:06 PM
168.209.97.34
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Here is a question for the guy that was in the recon unit: if you could choose between
a) being unseen 90% of the time, but not being able to get out of the way once you are spotted, and
b) being more visible, but having the speed and maneuverability to kick dust in the face of anything that tries to give you trouble,
which would you pick? Because that is basically the question here when it comes to the scouting differences between the BA's and the Protos.
Comment on earlier remark by Karagin: the phenotype used for the Protos is the same - that is, standard - aerospace phenotype. How would this be more difficult for the Clans to obtain as you stated earlier?
Evolve or Die
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Nightward
02/01/05 04:18 PM
203.214.144.143
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Yeah, except that wasn't happening either. As Scott will tell you, I have a thing for Shadow Hawks and often deploy them even when doing so is a stupid choice to make.
A player's personal preferences are a valid point, but only insofar as they recognise that not evryone will share it.
Karagin, Greyslayer, and Cray were all playing a Tweedledee and Tweedledum am too/ are not competition.
This thread is probably up to 7 or 8 pages in flat mode, but it really served its purpose after the first few replies. An extended flamewar (or near flamewar) over the issue is pointless.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Gnome76
02/01/05 05:31 PM
68.0.125.156
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If I recall correctly, somebody mentioned that the price of an Elemental's training was 200,000 Cb.
If ProtoMech pilots were previously trained as fighter pilots, shouldn't we take into account the cost of the fighter training as well as the ProtoMech training? Also, the cost and healing time for the EI surgery is required for ProtoMech pilots, but optional for Elementals.
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davion76
02/02/05 12:40 AM
12.219.244.44
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the cost of the previous fighter training is irrelevant b/c the guy would have been relegated to a lower caste. So the difference is between making no use of money paid and getting something from it. EG, there is no marginal cost.
As for the cost of protomech training - definitely. As well as the surgery costs of EI.....
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Greyslayer
02/02/05 01:09 AM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
Here is a question for the guy that was in the recon unit: if you could choose between
a) being unseen 90% of the time, but not being able to get out of the way once you are spotted, and
b) being more visible, but having the speed and maneuverability to kick dust in the face of anything that tries to give you trouble,
a) is 100% detectable if mobile, unless of course they somehow end up with ECM (goodbye being able to fire back in anger though in some cases for that swap out). Its only when they stop when and they are not seen at that time that they are 90% undectable.
In the rules BOTH are the same height (level 1, same as vehicles). In a roleplaying setting this will probably change. I've also posted where the advantages lie in one or the other. I recognise neither one nor the other as supreme scout or recon units, I took offence to the believed outright superiority of BAs over Protos in scouting. If that can be proven then I would have no problems. Instead I was asked for my qualifications in making such a statement (I needed none since battletech is not real life). Once I indicated that I have real life experience then that tac was dropped.
Quote:
which would you pick? Because that is basically the question here when it comes to the scouting differences between the BA's and the Protos.
Probably what was truly asked is what provides the best scouting bang for your buck. Protos go up to 1m each but the ones you would be using for scouting are about 700k or less. They are quick and can handle extra equipment like sensors and ecm gear as well as weapons. BAs price up to and over 1m, generally though Gnomes would be wasted in such a position and they are too slow (though at least there is a chance to return fire before dieing if they are found out) so that would leave the others at about 700k. Slow and generally not carrying much in the way of equipment associated with scouting in battletech they do have other advantages:
- infantry movement through buildings.
- unless playing Maxtech rules they pretty much cannot be detected if they are already hidden.
so they are better in urban situations and in OPs (observation posts) than protos.
What would I have out in front of a clan force would depend on the area ahead. Obviously if we were entering a city or urban areas BAs would be out front since the main body wouldn't be moving that fast. But in more open areas having a mobile force out front of the main group would be more important as well as the detection capabilities they would provide, Protos for mind.
Quote:
Comment on earlier remark by Karagin: the phenotype used for the Protos is the same - that is, standard - aerospace phenotype. How would this be more difficult for the Clans to obtain as you stated earlier?
The main restriction in this situation is the availability of Aerospace dropouts. I'd never really thought that there would be that many that would survive their trials and not succeed. I would personally always limit the number of Protos available due to this and the fact you generally don't 'stockpile' them since they go crazy due to the implants. Apart from that they cost you very little since all they were going to become were astechs anyway. They are a recycled resource not a manufactured one.
To continue with this the cost for a single elemental might involve the costs for all those that have failed as well ie the cost to get 1 succesfull elemental would be about 200,000. The price for a failed aerospace pilot would be 0 since the price of a successful aerospace pilot has already taken the price of the failed aerospace pilot into account. You just need the price for the EI and resources to keep the person. At least that is my look at it.
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