Suggestions for a Tournament Force.

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Nightward
02/06/05 05:12 AM
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Right. So, next month I'll be competing ina BT Tournament. The rules for entry are: 3025-era 'Mechs (including Wolf Dragoon etc). The force may total no more than 260 tons and feature no more than 8 units.

Gunnery may be upgraded as such

Light: +5 Tons
Medium: +10 Tons
Heavy: +15 Tons
Assualt: +20 Tons.

Piloting is always 5 tons per upgrade and you may have no more than 1 point difference between your two skills. All pilots begin as Green (5/6).

Last time I played under this format, I took a BNC-3S Banshee backed by an ARC-2S Archer with a Savannah Master for initiative soaking. It worked moderately well, but tended to be a bit all-or-nothing; when I lost, it was a crushing defeat, and when I won, it was total annihilation as well.

The winner last time was a lance of elite Wolf Hounds.

This time, I'm pondering taking a force of Veterans- two in Catapaults and two in J. Edgar hovercraft.

Anyone else have any suggestions?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Karagin
02/06/05 12:33 PM
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Why the Catapaults? Why not go with two Stalkers?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightward
02/07/05 03:00 AM
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STKs weigh 85 tons and are Assualts. If I go with a CPLT, it's a heavy.

Two Stalkers are an eggs-in-one-basket situation. Assuming you give them pilots who can stay standing and hit things (ie, Veteran pilots), that takes the tonnage to 135 per Stalker.

A CPLT, OTOH, with a Veteran pilot sets me back only 105 tons.

Two STKs aren't an option, since they total up to 270.

What we found the last time was that the key to victory was the ability to inflict 20+ damage in a turn, to force a Piloting check. Most people didn't have really good Piloting scores, so they'd fall over and waste MPs (and potentially damage themselves more) in getting up.

Pending approval from the tournament referee, I might be taking a Shogun. The rules call for a 3039 design ceiling, which is ostensibly Level 1 tech. The Shogun has CASE, though, so it's a line ball on that one.

If I can sneak it in, though, I'll be showing up with a Shogun and a Catapault.

The other force I'm pondering is a pair of elite Archers.

BTW, the rounds are conducted on fields that equate more or less to 2 mapsheets. Unpleasant terrain covers probably 40%-60% of the field. You must play a minimum of 12 turns in the 1.5 hour round period to have the full victory points awarded; for each round below that you fail to complete, you loose 10 (or 20, I forget) tons from your VPs. VPs = Your forces left Alive + Enemy Forces Destroyed. Anything that cannot leave the field under its own power is a kill to you.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Grizzly
02/07/05 09:13 AM
64.9.50.200

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I don't know if this will work or is to your taste, but I always felt that balance was key, so here is my take....

Jenner 35 tons +10 2 pts. gunnery, +10 2pts. piloting= 55pts. .

Phoenix Hawk(which ever variant you like) 45 tons +20 2pts. gunnery, +10 2 pts. piloting= 75pts.

Centurion 50 tons +10 1pt. gunnery, +5 1pt. piloting= 65pts.

Hunchback 50 tons +10 1pt. gunnery, +5 1pt. piloting= 65pts.

55+75+65+65=260pts.

Your two best pilot/gunnery are in the most manuverable mechs, and you have some long range support with the Centurion and an in close killer with the Hunchback. Just my two cents....
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
Karagin
02/07/05 11:32 AM
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The Shogun from the Dragoon source book doesn't show any CASE, what about going with that one?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightward
02/07/05 05:40 PM
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Doesn't it? The one on HMP for Ned's computer features CASE. SHS, IS L1 weapons...and CASE. I'll check my TDB files.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Nightward
02/07/05 06:00 PM
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The only problem is that the instagibbing weapons have a 4 Gunner sitting behind them. Moving at 4/6 also means you're unlikely to close enough to lay into them with the big guns. Needing something around a 10 to smack down with the A/C-20 is also not that great statistically.

In a recent trial match, I took an Atlas with an Elite pilot backed by a Hunchback LRM variant. The results with the A/C-20 there were not exactly what I'd call awe-inspiring...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Greyslayer
02/07/05 07:56 PM
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Hehehe. Gee Nightward, you really need help don't you?

For the Atlas perhaps try an IMP. Better long and medium range damage modifiers, very little chance of blowing up.

I know you like the banshee but I've always managed to take down the 3s with standard Stalkers. Taking a Stalker with an Archer allows you to play the indirect game more effectively with the Savannah Master spotting using the 10 tons for either more spotters or dropping the piloting on both units by 1.

Nightward also forgot to mention that you can field only one of the same 'variant'. You can field 8 3025 Mongoose, but you couldn't field 8 LCT-1Es, only 1 LCT-1E and several other mechs(including other variants of the Locust if you feel the need). As shown with the Mongoose, 8 of the 'standard' variant for the time-period is perfectly acceptable though.

If it wasn't the case armies of elite or veteran Jenner Fs would be the norm I'd reckon. Though I am partial to the Hunchback J myself.

What someone needs to do in a tonnage-restricted game is if there is a mech that fulfills the exact requirements that either does the job better or cheaper (perhaps both) than what you are currently looking at.

The catapult has far too little armour to last most battles of this type. Crusader variants are better armoured (the standard just too easy to kill via back shots) and solid performers up close (don't argue only one arm when in the back arc, a medium laser at point blank is far more effective than flipping arms with 2 lrm15s!) You may as well use Trebuchets if you want under-armoured twin LRM15 units.

Also, SPECIALISE!!! A Banshee with an Archer is neither frontal assault nor indirect but a bit of both. The Archer can be used that way but cannot help the Banshee when it gets overwhelmed, a grasshopper may have been more useful (ppc variant is nasty, good replacement for those calmmering for Battlemaster Ds) to support the Banshee or as I said a Stalker a better combo with an Archer.

You might ask yourself then 'why did I field a non-specialised army?' Perhaps because I couldn't win, I was only available for 5 games of the 7 last time (captain of a cricket team on sunday that weekend). Plus I enjoyed people either underestimating hovercraft or the GRF-1N and failing (my only problem was that I came straight from nightshift to playing in the tourney... not a good way to play) to defeat my army.

My force last time:

2 J Edgars 5/6 (50 tons)
2 Pegasus 4/5 (90 tons)
1 Savannah Master 5/6 (5 tons)
1 GRF-1N 1/2 (115 tons)

First turn, run the Griffin into cover and indirect an LRM10 onto any enemy unit - first damage to me and no return damage. After that pin them down with accurate PPC fire and harrass with Hovercraft (Pin and Hook, you can certainly see my Armoured Corps training ). Everyone else would've picked the GRF-1S, but if you were to field that you may as well field a Wolverine which meant more chances of losing a big component of my force (I never lost my Griffin in any of the 5 battles).

Next time something different
Karagin
02/07/05 10:38 PM
65.129.165.217

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The listing in the WD Sourcebook doesn't show it...TDB has it with out the case but HMP has the two versions with CASE...

I am in favor of the 3025 version NOT having the case since the WD book was out before the advance in tech...and we all know the Dragoons had the Shoguns in 3025.

If you can't use the Shogun, then what about a Longbow?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.


Edited by Karagin (02/07/05 11:06 PM)
Greyslayer
02/07/05 11:28 PM
216.14.192.234

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The general ruling by the usual organisers in this would be what the sheet book has (sheet book as in those released with or after the 3025/26 sheetbook with the Guillotine and catapults on the cover).

There might be an errata released for this particular one that updates the corresponding sheetbook it is found in.

I can only find clashing information myself:

http://users.anet.com/~cplkagan/equipment/spheretech/mechs/3025/bm-shogun.html

shows no case while this one:

http://www.winternet.com/~davion/bvlist.html

shows that it is level 2 technology.
Karagin
02/07/05 11:48 PM
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Okay I will dig the book out of the storage unit, need to go out to it anyways...I don't recall the WD book showing CASE for the Shogun.

This is one of those grey areas.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Grizzly
02/08/05 01:11 AM
165.121.80.83

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Both the Shogun 2E and 2F from Record Sheets 3050 have Case, and there isn't a Shogun in Record Sheets 3025....
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
Grizzly
02/08/05 01:32 AM
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Hmmmm, ok I see your point of view.... Well what about....

Jenner 35, 2 gunnery skill 10pts., 2 piloting skill 10pts.
Jenner 35, 2 gunnery skill 10pts., 2 piloting skill 10pts.
P-Hawk 45, 2 gunnery skill 20pts., 2 piloting skill 10pts.(insert your favorite variant here)
Vindicator 1AA 2 gunnery skill 20pts., 2 piloting skill 10pts.

Or go something lighter such as a Javelin with the above upgrades to piloting and gunnery, Jenner with the same upgrades, P-Hawk with the above upgrades and a Trebuchet 7k with the above upgrades?
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
Greyslayer
02/08/05 03:25 AM
203.61.72.199

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Phoenix Hawks are rather weak IMHO. Not damaging at long or medium and you have to configure your weaponry at short and it still doesn't do that much damage. The Vindie AA is really too light on armour. Don't think people will not hit you because you go 5/8/5, veteran, elite and 'super' elite will not be uncommon on the battlefields he will be facing.

As for a Treb, with a force composition being bandied about the J would be better.

Also note that fielding 2 Jenner Fs is not possible, only 1 mech variant of that type but up to 8 of the standard variant ie JR7-D = limit up to 8, JR7-F only 1 allowed. The D variant would really struggle to match it out there on the battlefield.

I could list units I would take but it would cut into what I would have to field and what I have already suggested to Nightward
Grizzly
02/08/05 09:25 AM
64.9.50.200

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Ahh, I was not aware of only being able to use one variant of each mech.... Since you need more firepower and armour what about some of my personal favorite mechs....

Grasshopper, Thunderbolt (Eridani variant with JJ) or Awesome? The 'Hopper and T-bolt E can jump and nothing says love quite like a triple helping of charged particles ... Just a thought.

Grasshopper 70 tons, 3 gunnery 45pts., 3 piloting 15pts.
T-bolt E 65 tons, 3 gunnery 45pts., 3 piloting 15pts.
Savanah Master 5 tons

This way you get two mechs with decent armour/firepower and a 4/6/4 mobility and a harassing/spotting unit in the Savanah Master.
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
Karagin
02/08/05 12:27 PM
65.129.167.1

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In the WD sourcebook, it does not show CASE and all of the mechs there in that book are 3025 tech.

Okay page 110 of the Wolf's Dragoons Sourebook FASA #1631 print date of 1989 list the SHG-2E SHOGUN as NOT having CASE.

It is all 3025 tech. So I believe someone made a mistake or an error in reguards to the 3025 File for HMPro and if I believe it was correct in the big update file of mechs and vehilces at Rick's site. But as far as it goes the book shows it without CASE and thus it doesn't have it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.


Edited by Karagin (02/08/05 03:14 PM)
Greyslayer
02/08/05 05:20 PM
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Not one variant as such but one of the less common variants ie

HBK-4G Unlimited
HBK-4J only 1
HBK-4P only 1
HBK-4SP only 1 etc

You could field four regular HBKs each of a different variant if you want (ie HBK-4J, HBK-4P, HBK-4SP, HBK-4H) or even if you want 4 HBK-4G since it is the standard version.

You may find the Awesome a bit outgunned by armies since you would need at least a Veteran to make it useful, thus using 50% of your tonnage. Fast forces consisting of green units would cut the Awesome to pieces, don't think it won't happen either as I showed green hovercraft are a pain to fight against and the Awesome is less effective against Hovercraft than mechs because they move so fast and PPCs only give you one location roll (location rolls are the better way of knocking off vehicles), you may as well go a Warhammer D with the tonnage saved and the ability to at least fire on something point blank.
Greyslayer
02/08/05 05:29 PM
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As I have said earlier.

It doesn't matter if the information appears before the 3025/26 sheetbook that has the guillotine and catapults on the front, only information and sheets at the same time or AFTER this book is relevant as far as the referees are concerned here.

If they released an errata for the 3050 sheetbook that shows the Shogun does not in fact have case then it is fine otherwise the Shogun with case will not be allowed in the tourney. Also note that units that were clearly built or only fielded after 3025 may not be used (ie Magistry tank the Heavy LRM Carrier despite being level 1 tech was built after 3025 I think thus not allowed for use).
Karagin
02/08/05 05:35 PM
65.133.242.13

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While that might be true for the tournement you guys are in the fact remains that the mech was omitted from the HMPro files and seeing how THOSE are the offical 100% tourment legal files, the error needs to be fixed, hence the reason I posted the info so other could see it and know about it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightward
02/08/05 06:17 PM
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Yeah. Ned told me that we couldn't have Wolf Dragoon 'Mechs, then dropped an Imp on the table last weekend. My reaction:



"I thought you said we couldn't have the Wolf Dragoon 'Mechs?"
"...no..."
"Last time I was thinkning about a Marauder Mark Two, but you said we couldn't use Dragoon unit."
"...no..."

Eh. Otherwise, I would have probably looked at the Imp. Or the Shogun, which is what I'm looking at now.

As the comments ran on Sunday, you need to be able to force your opponent to fight. More mobile units like Martin's last time worked well, but I hear the plan this time from some is massed Medium Laser fire from Regular gunners. Apparently Malcom's found a way to show up with something like 29 medium lasers. Urg.

Mind you, the Scotsman's unit choice last time around was good- the LL Charger, MedLas Hunchie, Javelin, and whatever else.

The other thing too, though, is that I'm trying to show up with a force that isn't a clone of what worked last time around.

The BNC/Archer combo was OK, but not spectacular. I couldn't hit often enough to make them worthwhile selections.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Nightward
02/08/05 06:28 PM
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Mmm. Well, problem solved, it would appear.

Re the Longbow, though...I did have a look at it, but it really has light armour for its tonnage and moves slowly, further compounding the problem.

Also, the general consensus for the tourney is that if you've got more than 8 shots for something, you're probably over-ammo'ed for the weapon.

This is making choices like the Crusader more poular, and it will be something I'll toy with.

There's still the best part of a month to go before the time comes to lock in.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Greyslayer
02/08/05 06:38 PM
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'There's still the best part of a month to go before the time comes to lock in. '

If you want to head over my place and bounce some armies you are free to try btw.
Nightward
02/08/05 06:49 PM
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Mm. I might take you up on that. Last tournament, I hadn't played for something like eight months against a human opponent. Messing around with MegaMek is interesting, but it doesn't really do much to challenge your ability.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Greyslayer
02/08/05 06:55 PM
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Quote:

As the comments ran on Sunday, you need to be able to force your opponent to fight. More mobile units like Martin's last time worked well, but I hear the plan this time from some is massed Medium Laser fire from Regular gunners. Apparently Malcom's found a way to show up with something like 29 medium lasers. Urg.




Easy enough 7 x Mongoose 1 x Hunchback, though personally probably better with the Hunchback J or H to provide a bit of fire support before engaging. HBK reg and 2 mongoose are reg.

I just mucked about and knocked up a force of 33 medium lasers ... too easy

Quote:

Mind you, the Scotsman's unit choice last time around was good- the LL Charger, MedLas Hunchie, Javelin, and whatever else.




Charger SB has been highly underrated in the past, I've used it a fair bit though. The other units are solid though perhaps a Flashman may have performed fairly well in place of the Charger?

Quote:

The other thing too, though, is that I'm trying to show up with a force that isn't a clone of what worked last time around.

The BNC/Archer combo was OK, but not spectacular. I couldn't hit often enough to make them worthwhile selections.




As long as you understand where you went wrong. An Atlas/Crusader combo (trading 5 tons each way) would be more effective as you will probably now know.
Nightward
02/08/05 07:07 PM
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I played against someone who I think is a new recruit- Rick Anderson. The battle was a loooooooooooong,drawn-out affair in which my Atlas managed to cover the length of the field and burn through its full complement of A/C ammo.

I hit twice with it.

And I had a friggin' Elite MechWarrior in it and was sitting on 7s and below most of the time. It was pathetic. we put in so much effort, and got absolutely no result. Mind you, none of our record sheets looked particularly happy by the end of the game, either. Another ten minutes or so probably would have seen something go down, but my Atlas was pretty dinged up.

Blearg.

Flashman might not be a bad option, since it comes in as a Heavy and has a fairly similar armament. Frees up a bit of tonnage for MW upgrading.

The plan with the Light Show option, according to Malcom, is just to blaze away. With that many dice rolling, you'll hit something.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Greyslayer
02/08/05 07:16 PM
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Quote:

The plan with the Light Show option, according to Malcom, is just to blaze away. With that many dice rolling, you'll hit something.




you would think that. Do note though that before I played Steve (the last of the 5 battles at the previous tourney) I was hitting about 4% of the time needing 10s, and about 6% needing 11s. I fired over 30 weapons needing exactly 10 to hit and missed with every weapon. Thats right not a single weapon needing 10 hit, I hit once needing 11s out of the 20+ rolls for that as well. Meanwhile my Super Elite Griffin always needing far less took another mech out via headshot with the PPC. So while you might think something might hit, if your cold fighting with greens can be painful.
Grizzly
02/08/05 10:52 PM
209.86.73.229

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I see your point about vehicles. Weapons that cause multiple hit location rolls (ie. SRM/LRM 3025 era) stand a better chance of knocking out a vehicle. I never played in a tourney set up this way, different, but sounds very interesting and challenging. Thanks for the insight. Are these types of tourneys the norm down under? Sounds like you Aussies have a flourishing and dynamic battletech community.
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
Grizzly
02/08/05 10:57 PM
209.86.73.229

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I honestly didn't look at my WD sourcebook, just my record sheet books for faster reference. I have the all the sheets in page protectors and large three ring binders. I have copies of every sheet in a portable hanging file. Probably a bit extreme, but I don't want to ruin my originals, and I still don't have HMP.
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
Karagin
02/08/05 11:00 PM
65.129.164.177

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Well it's not in HMPro files for the 3025 set and I am not sure why. They do have it in the 3050 file set with CASE.

The WD book gives the stats and they add up to 85 tons and all fits for 3025 tech, just as the webpage Greyslayer posted does. I did post on the HMP site about this and will more then likely type up the stats this weekend and submit them. Thing is it's a legal mech for 3025 tech fights, just slipped through the cracks.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Greyslayer
02/08/05 11:23 PM
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Quote:

I see your point about vehicles. Weapons that cause multiple hit location rolls (ie. SRM/LRM 3025 era) stand a better chance of knocking out a vehicle. I never played in a tourney set up this way, different, but sounds very interesting and challenging. Thanks for the insight. Are these types of tourneys the norm down under?




A couple of people who want to see the game continue and have the knack of annoying people until they say yes they will turn up is what is keeping it going pretty much. I've run a tourney in the past which used bv but only for 3025. It worked really well and included lots of people fielding anything from vehicles to Stalkers (2000bv up to 8 units, the bv was calculated using the tables given and I had an excel spreadsheet made up that made sure your army was legit and all I would have to do is entered in who played who and who lost which unit and viola all done). We have also tried BV using all tech levels but really a 3025 army under bv should be able to fight a 3050 army but would get chewed out it is so uneven (plus the Dasher H is just plain bad!).

Also the old mechforce style tourneys where 250 tons and everyone is regular (basically mechs only, I suppose this is what you are familiar with?).

Quote:

Sounds like you Aussies have a flourishing and dynamic battletech community.




A small yet sporadically active community, Brisbane and Sydney people often work together in this. When the Brisbane community was more active we would have mercenary contracts/campaigns etc. We even once had run campaigns right from clan trial of positions to the Wolf Refusal just before the invasion of the IS (playing Ghost bear mechwarriors we really got bored of Dragonflies very quickly )
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