Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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One ton equals how many troops?
#107933 - 05/14/05 09:25 PM (65.132.126.177)
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Okay during a converstion today, a couple of the guys I play BT with were talking about how many troopers (infantry guys) actually makes up 1 ton for BT weight reasons etc...
One was going with a squad sized element would meet the one ton setting and the other was thinking more along the lines of a platoon.
Now I think the squad idwea could work, since it would fit with how APCs and IFVs do actually work, but given that this further in the future and better tech and all that I can see the other side of the conversation as well.
So what do you folks think about this? What is the size of a unit of soliders that would equal one ton for weight purposes for the infantry bays on vehicles?
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Karagin]
#107940 - 05/15/05 04:05 AM (203.206.16.70)
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The self-evident answer is: Weigh the dudes and see how heavy they are.
But this kind of doesn't take into consideration the practicalities of the situation. The vehicle must set aside the tonnage to carry the infantry without degradiing its own performance, but must also provide space for the infantry. It's entirely possible that the remainder of the "stupid" or "missing" weight is used for support pylons, seats, storage bins, supplies, ammo, medical gear, and a bazillion other incidentals that the game doesn't mandate we track.
So, my opinion is: Infantry doesn't specifically need to weigh as much as they do.
Any way, the question is sort of answered by the existence of the Pinto, which devotes 1 ton to Infantry. This is a quarter of a Platoon's weight, which means that a squad occupies 1 ton of space.
But unless you're using Level 3 rules, you have to get 4 Pintos debarked into the same Hex, in the same turn, or they're wasted.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Nightward]
#107943 - 05/15/05 12:07 PM (65.129.164.6)
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You hit the nail on the head. Your point is where the whole conversation stemmed from and seemed to be going towards the overall weight isn't or shouldn't be the issue. But since it is an issue and since the BMR claims a foot platoon is 3 tons, and yet some vehilces more so then just the Pinto, have odd weights set aside for infantry, it leads folks to wondering which is correct and how and why the odd weigths...and if teh weight of the infantry is three tons, does that mean they have more then their rifles? Would it mean they have actual support weapons already included?
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Karagin]
#107946 - 05/15/05 04:26 PM (12.219.244.44)
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The inf do have some support weapons included. the support weapons are what make the inf able to damage mechs. You can read more on this in "Combat Operations".
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: davion76]
#107964 - 05/16/05 09:35 AM (65.129.164.206)
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You missed the point...if their weights are higher then some of the infantry bays as given in a lot of the vehicles, which list the infantry bays as 1 ton are not vaild or need to be adjusted or the infantry weights are off.
I am aware of the infantry having things like recoilless rifles and other anti-mech and armor weapons, what I was getting at is IF the platoons have the support weapons as part of their make up to start with, which isn't stated in the BMR, then the vehicles are in fact unable to carry the troopers. That issue is what lead to the discussion and debate and no clear answer.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Karagin]
#107985 - 05/16/05 04:09 PM (132.234.251.211)
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Nooo.
See, what the Infantry have is anti-Mech weaponry. If you look at the BT/MW rules set, it's pretty much impossible to hurt a 'Mech with personnel weapons.
SRM packs? Anti-Mech.
Rifles? Presumably, these are Gyrojet and/or Recoiless, not bolt-action.
Machine Guns? Anti-Mech class.
Lasers? Support or Blazer Carbine.
Otherwise, Infantry would just be 28 dudes who inflicted a grand total of 1 point of damage per turn. Which would kind of suck.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Nightward]
#107992 - 05/16/05 08:12 PM (65.129.223.176)
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No...listen to what I am asking...does the FASA/FP weight as given via the BMR give the standard infantry support weapons WITHOUT say what kinds already as a given defacto idea or is the weight incorrect since the anti-mech weapons aren't shown on the sheets...if they are taking those weapons into account as a given then some of the canon vehicles CAN'T carry the troops since Combat Ops manual says infantry is always treated as platoon element, so as the topic stats what is the correct weight of the infantry...
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Karagin]
#107993 - 05/16/05 10:40 PM (216.14.198.61)
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how do you fit 28 troopers into 1 ton anyway? That is like just over 35 kilos each bloke..... now I'm underweight for my height and I ain't tall, yet I was heavier than that when I was 13 year old. You would have to assume that this would be a squad of infantry per ton. If the unit cannot in level 2 carry infantry classify it as cargo space. If you allow some rules from MaxTech then you can use squads and thus the infantry carrying ability returns.
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davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Greyslayer]
#107994 - 05/16/05 10:48 PM (12.219.244.44)
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28 troopers fit into 3 tons.
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davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Karagin]
#107995 - 05/16/05 11:10 PM (12.219.244.44)
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From all the sources I have read, the standard platoons carry man-pack and semi-portable support weapons as part of their makeup, therefore the 3 tons allotted by a vehicle to its inf-carrying capability DOES include the weight/space needed by its infantry.
As for how much the infantry weigh, my guess is approximately 107 kg each., including equipment. An average trooper probably weighs about 80 kg, and a pack of ~27 kg makes sense too (~50 lbs).
As for many vehicles not being able to carry a platoon (or inf). If you specifically try to follow the new Combat ops rule, then many V's can't carry inf. Historically, infantry could be used in squad size (7 troopers). Esp usefull when using inf trained in anti-mechs tactics. Most players will now simply require enough V's to be within a hex or adjacent to the hex that the inf will disembark to.
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: davion76]
#107997 - 05/17/05 01:17 AM (216.14.198.61)
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yes though platoons are divided into four yet you can only allocate infantry in 1-ton lots. You don't field 9 1/3 troopers to 1 ton you only field a squad.
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davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Greyslayer]
#108003 - 05/17/05 08:50 AM (12.219.244.44)
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What about jump platoon? they fit quite nicely!
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: davion76]
#108009 - 05/17/05 11:49 AM (65.132.126.227)
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Note the rules in the book you mentioned of infantry having to be in platoons for weight issues.
And could you cite WHICH page in the BMR-R that is states the infantry have antii-mech weapons please.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Greyslayer]
#108010 - 05/17/05 11:50 AM (65.132.126.227)
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Don't know...but thats the ruling.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: davion76]
#108011 - 05/17/05 11:53 AM (65.132.126.227)
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And with the new rule in Combat ops, it's clear that some vehicles can't hold a platoon of infantry and seeing how the weight is now the issue, the points raised as to what is a one tons of troops numbering for their total is very vaild concern.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Greyslayer]
#108012 - 05/17/05 11:54 AM (65.132.126.227)
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Which is what is the bases of this topic...what actually makes up the one ton of infantry as far as HOW many troops etc...
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: davion76]
#108013 - 05/17/05 11:56 AM (65.132.126.227)
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How so? Their weight is completly different then the foot infantry and the odd ball mech/motor infantry. Which again leds to the same question how many troops make up a single ton for carrying purposes etc...
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Karagin]
#108034 - 05/17/05 06:34 PM (203.173.19.113)
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Arg.
Just divide the Infantry weight allocated into the amount required for a full Platoon. 1.5 tons lets you fit in two Foot Squads, or one Jump Squad, or whatever.
Only thing is (unless you're using Level 3 Rules) Infantry have to deploy as Platoons. So when it comes time to get out of the vehicles, enough of them to form a Platon have to debark in that turn.
As for Anti-Mech weaponry; like I say, just have a look at the MW/BT conversion rules. They have to be carrying Anti-Mech weapons in order to deal the damage they do.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6324
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Nightward]
#108035 - 05/17/05 06:37 PM (65.132.126.91)
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Never mind.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wraith
Major
Reged: 03/17/03
Posts: 1238
Loc: Wichita, KS, USA
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Nightward]
#108062 - 05/18/05 01:28 PM (68.67.32.114)
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They don't have to have anti-mech weaponry... all of their damage rolls just need to be grouped together. A Rifle does 3D6 damage. 28 Rifles do 84D6 damage. On average, 14 6s will be rolled. For every 2 6s, 1 point of BT damage is done. So, 28 Rifles will do 7 BT damage, if all damage rolls are lumped together.
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-Wraith
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Wraith]
#108068 - 05/18/05 04:50 PM (203.173.23.21)
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Damage rolls are not grouped together.
Same as in BT, same as when MW characters attack. Otherwise, six monkeys flinging rocks could kill an Elemental in battle armour.
Or in BT, all damage would be applied to one location.
Sometimes, the rules do make sense.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Wraith
Major
Reged: 03/17/03
Posts: 1238
Loc: Wichita, KS, USA
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Nightward]
#108070 - 05/18/05 06:41 PM (68.67.32.114)
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Right, they aren't. However, I was pointing out why it might not be necessary for Rifle platoons to be equipped with anti-mech weapons.
So when a 28 man Rifle platoon hits a mech, they have the equivalent of a ML that hits one location, and a mech-caliber MG that hits another. Lose some guys and they shoot 1 LRM. Some more, and it's just the ML. Then they have 2 SRMs? See, that there doesn't make sense.
If each damage roll were rolled individually per soldier, a platoon of Rifles would do a bit over 2 mech damage on average. Grouping all of the damage rolls, as they essentially did to the damage locations, makes rifle infantry a bit nastier. Now, if they had Zeus Heavy Rifles, on average they would do a bit more damage... If you're lucky, one troop could do 3 points of damage by himself.
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-Wraith
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Wraith]
#108077 - 05/19/05 02:22 AM (203.206.229.234)
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I'd put that down to the rules set; in BT, just about everything that can be grouped into damage lots of 5 is done so.
They even do it with ATMs, which is downright bizarre.
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Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Wraith
Major
Reged: 03/17/03
Posts: 1238
Loc: Wichita, KS, USA
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Nightward]
#108090 - 05/19/05 08:22 AM (68.67.32.114)
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It really stinks when a homebrew mech with dual LB-20X fires clusters, and each land 20 pings! Really fun if the opposing mech is in PC, but full locations... that's a lot of rolling 
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-Wraith
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Silenced_Sonix
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 275
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Wraith]
#108115 - 05/20/05 03:40 AM (146.232.65.7)
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Well, the alternative would be where you have each 'barrel' of the weapon - for example, a LRM10 would have ten 'barrels', a SRM6 six 'barrels', etc - fire individually, roll toHit individually, and roll a location individually. I wrote a little Java program to do this for me, and it works quite nice - instead of grouping the damage into clusters, each missile is now given an individual hit, hit location, etc. You can try it without the program, but it tends to take time. However, since most cell-phones can execute Java applications nowadays, it should be relatively easy to simply upload the code unto your cell and then use it in play.
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Evolve or Die
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
Sergeant
Reged: 06/21/04
Posts: 174
Loc: Deep South, USA
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Re: One ton equals how many troops?
[Re: Silenced_Sonix]
#108121 - 05/20/05 06:26 AM (129.33.119.12)
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I think missles are grouped the way they are due to the fact that the entire salvo is fired simultaneously and therefore should hit around the same location... and also for ease of math  If one were to assume the "missle barrels" concept, it would be logical to assume also that each missle were in fact fired one at a time in series, and thus it would then be possible for a single AMS to shoot down an entire LRM 20 rack by only having to focus on one target at a time instead of 20 at once. But this is mere speculation, and true I sometimes am annoyed by the damage grouping thing, but not that much. I don't know, sometimes the grouping works in my favor, sometimes it does not. That's the way the dice fall...
-Wolf
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War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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