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FeaR
Corporal


Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 57
Does Neveron need a new money sink?
      #111794 - 08/06/05 04:20 PM (24.128.59.25)

By looking at the top 200 empires by wealth it is now at the point where all 200 have over 2 bil or more on hand. Currently 38 empires have over 10 billion on hand, 12 of them having over 20 billion. The big wars needed to use up this cash just arn't happening. As a lvl 11 myself that makes alot of cash i really only spend cash on mechs and buying dp. Even when filling all 5 of my empires dp caps up weekly i still have insane amounts of cash left over. I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks new money sinks are needed in neveron. It could be new kinds of items to waste money on or even new expenses. Maybe when classes are done more people can just start nuking the hell out of each other.

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Markon
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Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 578
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: FeaR]
      #111797 - 08/06/05 05:01 PM (144.138.21.86)

I think this would have to be a balancing act. Extra expenses would only hurt the smaller empires trying to claw themselves up the ladder.

However extra features, like VSTOL units, pirate intellegence buildings, automated Factories, ability to change terrain and the like would appeal to larger empires without impacting on the smaller empires.

As my largest empire is only mid level 7, I myself would not like to see extra expenses. After all, mineral storage costs are an example of a change that only benefits larger empires with the population to use the production in their factories without having to stockpile.

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Aunduril
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Reged: 01/21/05
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: Markon]
      #111800 - 08/06/05 06:48 PM (209.86.37.81)

*imagines the face of nev with only lv4 and lower empires because everyone else was nuked*

Ahh.

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"What we do in life echos into eternity. " - Maximus - The Gladiator.


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mattbuckModerator
Eeyore


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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: Aunduril]
      #111811 - 08/07/05 03:21 AM (84.66.115.116)

I think Nev needs a new kitchen sink.

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KingDiamond
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Reged: 04/12/03
Posts: 689
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: mattbuck]
      #111812 - 08/07/05 04:47 AM (128.176.216.116)

And I was wondering where that smell came from... :-). But seriously now. It's gonna be hard to balance any new money sink, so that it doesn't hurt small empires too much. They really have problems enough to keep their cash together, at least at a decent bv-pop ratio.

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sdog
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1787
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: KingDiamond]
      #111813 - 08/07/05 04:57 AM (139.174.246.98)

i always liked the idea of introducing a level depending factor on cost for claiming land, buying non adjacent zones and LC movement. for empires below lvl 4 it is to high, for 5 to 8 the rates at the moment are ok, and for the big empire the costs are neglectable.

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KingDiamond
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: sdog]
      #111815 - 08/07/05 05:10 AM (128.176.216.116)

sounds quite okay. Question is if that'd really affect larger empires very much, as many of them are quite fine with the land they have, and at high level attack costs for bigger cities, you need to raise claiming or LC costs by a really big chunk to reach significant money sinking effects.

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sinsear
Captain


Reged: 07/16/03
Posts: 824
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: KingDiamond]
      #111816 - 08/07/05 06:43 AM (211.26.123.10)

easy, have morale bonuses for handing cash out to your faction for faction leaders (but negative morale for buying stuff and recieving money) This can be justified by having the FL empire's populace feel good for helping out allies, and feel crappy when they get charity or have to buy off of other empires.
Bring this into effect for all FL's over level 9 or something similiar, and you have a money sharing method. Well, it's the best I could come up with.


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NeverSayNever
Major


Reged: 11/18/02
Posts: 1465
Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: FeaR]
      #111817 - 08/07/05 08:49 AM (172.178.91.14)

Quote:

By looking at the top 200 empires by wealth it is now at the point where all 200 have over 2 bil or more on hand. Currently 38 empires have over 10 billion on hand, 12 of them having over 20 billion. The big wars needed to use up this cash just arn't happening. As a lvl 11 myself that makes alot of cash i really only spend cash on mechs and buying dp. Even when filling all 5 of my empires dp caps up weekly i still have insane amounts of cash left over. I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks new money sinks are needed in neveron. It could be new kinds of items to waste money on or even new expenses. Maybe when classes are done more people can just start nuking the hell out of each other.




Wow, really big empires (= like lvl 10+) having too much Nevcash on hand - and no way to spend and or redistribute all the surplus? . 'Poor' suckers! [Hey, just kidding ].

One easy 'fix' one can think off: simply drop even more AI pirates on the really, really rich and really, really big empires - and all the combined additional losses in military hardware, etc. should help to soak up quite a lot of the surplus Nevcash, some minor drawbacks though: even more lag for all of us and of course even less of the affordable, good light and or medium training Mechs at the marketplace, because the really big guys would need even more replacements .


How about a slightly different approach, you know, like new, big and expensive toys for the really big empires?

For example, how about Advanced Technology Complexes (ATCs)? E.g. with say 10 times the research capacity of a TC? - and of course expensive to build and maintain too (= Nevcash sink)?

Or how about extremely efficient Star League era laboratories (DP only special (you know, to help encourage an implementation), and of course extremely expensive to maintain (lots of Nevcash for retooling required)), like specialized labs which could help speed up research within specific subbranches of the reseach tree (e.g. fusion engine tech comes to mind, or how about advanced (= lvl 2 BT weapons) inner sphere weapons labs (IS Gauss Rifle, IS ER-PPC, IS Ultra-AutoCannons, etc.)?


Or ...

... how about extremely advanced Clan Tech era laboratories (of course an expensive DP only special (you know, to help encourage an implementation), and of course extremely expensive to maintain too (lots of Nevcash for retooling required)), like a specialized clantech weapons lab or a specialized clantech fusion engine lab (XL engines)?


Basically the really big empires, like lvl 10+, could spend more DPs on research - you know, either by donating more or by buying up some more DPs with their vast surplus Nevcash reserves -, getting much faster results in return (= bringing back some fun when it comes to the extremely time consuming Mech research projects, like medium or even heavy Mech research).


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archmore
Newbie


Reged: 12/12/01
Posts: 16
Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: NeverSayNever]
      #111820 - 08/07/05 11:24 AM (4.255.41.176)

hummmm how about the ability to design new vehicles/mechs?........ 1 + bil to design...... but then they still have to research it

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SeriyVolk
Sergeant


Reged: 05/25/05
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: archmore]
      #111825 - 08/07/05 01:21 PM (24.214.80.134)

I like those ideas, NSN :thumbs up:

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mattbuckModerator
Eeyore


Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 2853
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: SeriyVolk]
      #111830 - 08/07/05 03:52 PM (84.66.115.116)

Should cost more to design a mech than 1bil. Designs can be coded, but it costs about $500, which is 1000dp, aka 50bil (the cost of a nuke).

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Aunduril
Sergeant Major


Reged: 01/21/05
Posts: 377
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: mattbuck]
      #111834 - 08/07/05 08:22 PM (209.86.36.107)

I really like your ideas about the facilities NSN. That would be something I would look forward to if and when I get up to that point(I'm working on it)

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mumbles
Sergeant


Reged: 03/06/05
Posts: 147
Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: sinsear]
      #111838 - 08/07/05 08:43 PM (65.93.48.216)

Quote:

easy, have morale bonuses for handing cash out to your faction for faction leaders (but negative morale for buying stuff and recieving money) This can be justified by having the FL empire's populace feel good for helping out allies, and feel crappy when they get charity or have to buy off of other empires.
Bring this into effect for all FL's over level 9 or something similiar, and you have a money sharing method. Well, it's the best I could come up with.




This doesnt help out perhaps someone doesnt want to recive charaty because of the moral, i dont want to have a negative moral so i can get some cash only to lose it because of moral.

If you want to do some cash spending why dont you allow people to traspher over the limit. Over the limit to 2x $1 for every $2 sent, 2x and above 1$ for every $4 sent.

Edited by mumbles (08/07/05 08:45 PM)


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Toontje
Colonel


Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: mumbles]
      #111843 - 08/08/05 02:02 AM (84.24.165.226)

the money sending already is like that, 1x, 2x, 10x.

If there needs to be a money sink, send it to me. I'll weight it down with some BM and start filling ocean zones.

A new demi-annual nevwar would sink a load of money as well. (from the losing side.)

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Rather to blow up, then.


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MEX
Sergeant


Reged: 07/18/05
Posts: 124
Loc: g-town, Vienna, Austria, EU.
Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: archmore]
      #111847 - 08/08/05 03:58 AM (213.143.116.63)

Quote:

hummmm how about the ability to design new vehicles/mechs?........ 1 + bil to design...... but then they still have to research it


I like this idea, but it should be restricted to vehicles (with less than 20 tons) as own designs for mechs and heavier vehicles should still require DP.

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Edited by MEX (08/08/05 03:59 AM)


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Kanil
Captain


Reged: 03/13/03
Posts: 1028
Loc: Head Chef, Archon's Kitchen
Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: MEX]
      #111849 - 08/08/05 04:03 AM (69.171.193.112)

What's the point of making another crappy redesign of the Jeep?
I mean, you can't get much out of 15 tons, and what you can usually already exsists.
I suppose this would be used to make some cheap, expendable vehicles, perhaps a new breed of AIV, but otherwise, its a rather pointless suggestion.

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"The better news is that we are outnumbered, four to one."
- Clanners, and their whacked view of the world.


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MEX
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Reged: 07/18/05
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: Kanil]
      #111856 - 08/08/05 04:43 AM (213.143.116.63)

Dont forget the VTOL scouts like the Ferret, or vehicles with a ECM of 4 or higher to blind the enemy, ... there are many types of vehicles which could change the tactics in Neveron drastically, even if they have less than 20 tons.

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Kanil
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: MEX]
      #111857 - 08/08/05 04:47 AM (69.171.193.112)

You did not state VTOLs, and as far as I know, they are one of those "back burner" (arm crits, hovers over water) features, they'll get added... later.
Want your Scout? Go for a Swiftwind X.
Want your ECM? Go for a TWAC.

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"The better news is that we are outnumbered, four to one."
- Clanners, and their whacked view of the world.


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MEX
Sergeant


Reged: 07/18/05
Posts: 124
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: Kanil]
      #111859 - 08/08/05 04:50 AM (213.143.116.63)

Arent thouse DP only ?

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Kanil
Captain


Reged: 03/13/03
Posts: 1028
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: MEX]
      #111862 - 08/08/05 04:53 AM (69.171.193.112)

SFT-XLR are DP only (for now).
SFT-X are currently being produced by two empires, and there are some on the market right now. (6.5 mil)
TWACs are currently being produced by 13 empires, and there are some on the market right now. (17 mil)

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"The better news is that we are outnumbered, four to one."
- Clanners, and their whacked view of the world.


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fernando
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Reged: 12/18/03
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: Kanil]
      #111865 - 08/08/05 05:01 AM (203.26.206.129)

I agree, some new ideas to blow money is most definitely required. This would also add new FUN features to the game. Earlier, i can recall dueling which cost alot of money to play around with due to the large cost of replacing a mech if u lost etc. was 1 form of draining cash especially from the larger empires as they were the ones that could afford it. Wars were also more popular, which is another money drainer. I like the idea of new building types as a way to drain money, however do not agree wit the moral idea raised. I reckon bring back the old arenas, add some fun little features like betting on FDOW's or something stupid like that, lol.

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MEX
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: fernando]
      #111869 - 08/08/05 06:37 AM (213.143.116.63)

The SFT-X has a ECM of ZERO, which is useless against the ECM of 3 of a Stealth Tower ...

The TWAC-00 TWAC Command Vehicle has a ECM of 6, but at a steep price.

The VNG-A2 Vanguard Medium Tank has a ECM of 4, with ~10 mil per tank it seems a better choice for a Newbie which wants to wage war against other Newbies than the TWAC-00. Especially as it is armed with a AC2 with a range of up to 24.

MfG, MEX

PS: Dont forget: you need ONLY ONE unit with a ECM higher than your enemy to blind him

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Nimon
Captain


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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? [Re: Toontje]
      #111872 - 08/08/05 07:49 AM (64.95.219.124)

Well if you want a money sink, have your wonderful politicans spend your money. You will soon find you have none left.


Seriously, if you really think that money sinks are needed (I personally do not think that way because an asset not used is wasted or the other oil field axiom a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow) have corruption be higher for those with a big bank. So the more money you have the more the little politicans are stuffing thier pockets. that way lower bank empires do not have to worry about that stuff and the bigger bank empires still have all thier cash just it does not grow that much faster (unless they get in a war and spend a lot and the accountants watch the pennies more).


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Sesshomeru
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: MEX]
      #111876 - 08/08/05 08:23 AM (67.149.34.124)

Nope, I know for sure that the TWAC is on the merketplace(look at assault section). I'm pretty sure that the swiftwind-X is also there but am not positive, and am too lazy to look.

PS: Yea just looked on the marketplace adn the Swiftwind-X is on there, Highland Gluckseberg has 2 companies of Swiftwinds out for 6.5 mill a piece.

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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1787
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ECM and Sensors [Re: MEX]
      #111881 - 08/08/05 09:17 AM (139.174.165.124)

your sensors need to be more powerfull then the ecm of your opponent. if you want to spot a stealth tower, it is not important how much ECM you got. in low level landwars, ecm is in general not important for the attacker. you have to get into LOS of your enemy anyways, so you will be spoted.

in high lvl LW ECM can be important, if you want to hide a part of your force from IDF towers. but as mechs are more difficult to hide, you'll probably need a raven.

defenders do usualy have more troops in their zones, and they are wider spread, not as close together as attacking forces usually are. for them a high ECM can be quite usefull.

get a SFT-X, (or XLR) if you can not afford a mech with decent sensors. as long the price of a twac seems to expensive for you, you don't need one anyway.

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I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...

- Skaven, ArmA modding community


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MEX
Sergeant


Reged: 07/18/05
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Re: ECM and Sensors [Re: sdog]
      #111883 - 08/08/05 09:25 AM (213.143.116.63)

Quote:

your sensors need to be more powerfull then the ecm of your opponent. if you want to spot a stealth tower, it is not important how much ECM you got. in low level landwars, ecm is in general not important for the attacker. you have to get into LOS of your enemy anyways, so you will be spoted.

in high lvl LW ECM can be important, if you want to hide a part of your force from IDF towers. but as mechs are more difficult to hide, you'll probably need a raven.

defenders do usualy have more troops in their zones, and they are wider spread, not as close together as attacking forces usually are. for them a high ECM can be quite usefull.

get a SFT-X, (or XLR) if you can not afford a mech with decent sensors. as long the price of a twac seems to expensive for you, you don't need one anyway.


How about using a single VNG-A2 Vanguard as Lance commander, supported by 3 cheap Scorpions ?

Then each BP can command a VNG-A2 with ECM 4 to hide his lance and order his Scorpions to attack any foe which he sees ...

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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel


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Re: ECM and Sensors [Re: MEX]
      #111885 - 08/08/05 09:43 AM (139.174.165.124)

you wont be able to spot any opponents.
you need excelent Sensors to spot them without Line Of Sight (LOS).
there's also no need for more then one scout vehicle in your attack force, you will stand at the edge of the map, don't move it, and wait until you've spoted the opforce.

non sniper vehicle combat is next to impossible in about 3/4 of neverons zones, the terrain is just to uneven for them to move towards the enemy. use snipers to shell enemy towers and vehicles, and mechs to kill the rest.

i don't see much use for those vanguards, they got 1 point more ECM then a standard stealth tower. but they are medium vehs, so they will be spoted as easily as the stealth tower. the AC2 is next to useless in mountain zones, and the ECM is useless in flat zones.

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- Skaven, ArmA modding community


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Wraith
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Reged: 03/17/03
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Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: mattbuck]
      #111893 - 08/08/05 11:10 AM (130.76.96.19)

New mech designs cost $300, which is 460 DP, which converts to 4.6 billion (1 DP = 10 million according to Randy).

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Sintares
Captain


Reged: 07/07/02
Posts: 922
Re: Does Neveron need a new money sink? - New research toys? [Re: Wraith]
      #111915 - 08/08/05 05:27 PM (84.68.192.130)

Having a higher ECM than your opponent does not mean you blind your opponent as such.

ECM simply subtracts from your opponents sensor rolls, but each turn a unit stands still its sensor power increases by one (up to double its base power) .

And if both of you are stationary for a long long time ...see quote below..

So having a good ECM makes it more difficult for him to spot you, but his ECM also makes it more difficult for you to spot him.

Quote:


Increased the maximum benefit of remaining stationary when detecting enemy units. If both you and the enemy are stationary, you may now get up to 4x effective sensor power by remaining stationary for very long periods of time. The maximum benefit begins to take effect after both parties have not moved for a number of turns equal to 6x your base sensor power rating. This extra power does not replace the previous benefit of +1 effective power rating per turn up double your base power rating. That fast sensor improvement still occurs, however there is now additional benefit to remaining still for very long periods of time.





Err, meant this to reply to Mex not Wraith obviously..


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