Question?

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OldTymePlayer
06/03/05 01:11 PM
216.143.4.8

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Hi All,

I'm just getting back into BattleTech again after many years. I have a quick question to ask ... hopefully there is an answer out there. When rolling hit location on a weapon strike the player rolls a "2" .. what is the result and where does the damage go... is it an automatic critical hit, if so dos the damage go external or internal (lets say the Mech is fresh and has no damage).

Thanks.. the Master rule book I picked up dosen't really specify and I have so many old time house rules in my head I can't remember the proper way to play the game.
chez
06/03/05 01:32 PM
62.173.81.122

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Funny, I'd never queried this before but I know what you mean.
One guy I played with years ago said it was 5 damage to the armour but the crit was a chance. ie. a roll of 12 would give 3(!) crits
We always play damage to the armour and 1 automatic critical
I hope everyone agrees otherwise I've been doing it wrong for years

chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Greyslayer
06/03/05 02:58 PM
216.14.198.61

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It is a chance of critical (ie roll dice). Can't recall coming accross anyone in Oz that I've played that does it any other way.

The 2 in question I gather is 'snake eyes' or two 1s, it gives a chance to critical the torso facing the firing unit (ie left side is left torso and so on).

When rules like this appear to not be clearly explained think laterally and look for something that does something similar and see what it does. The AP Autocannon ammo type gives a chance at critical but I think the damage has to still be applied externally completely before transferring to the internals if any damage is left to be transferred. In this case you roll for critical modified by the size of the autocannon, this indicates that a critical is never automatic but always rolled including the 'snake eyes' roll since the AP ammo sets out to simulate this effect.

In a similar situation I have always treated a Gyro hit as affecting kicks and such as your unit is a unstable unit but for kicks and physical attacks in general a still operational, but damaged, gyro is not mentioned as directly affecting kicks but a destroyed gyro means no physicals what-so-ever can take place so the gyro does affect physicals such as kicks and punches. Alternate rules also base your physical attack off your pilot skill which is directly affected by a gyro hit.

Talking of alternate rules also brings me back to the 'snake eyes' question. When using Glancing Blows from MaxTech it is explained that any critical suffers a -2 to the die roll (ie a 12 ends up being a 10 thus only 2 crits etc) when the weapon is classified as 'glancing'. It would circumvent these rules if a 'glancing' weapon generates an automatic crit.

With 'snake eyes' in MaxTech there is also the 'roving' crits ie you roll snake eyes for location and you roll again to see which location is critically damaged (you roll 2 and then for example left arm, you would then roll to see if you critical components in the left arm). If you roll 2 again then it is just the torso facing the attacking unit.


Edited by Greyslayer (06/03/05 03:00 PM)
OldTymePlayer
06/03/05 03:23 PM
216.143.4.8

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Thanks for the quick replies. I think I will go with the chance of a critical hit with damage going to the external armor (if avail) then internal.

Any other thoughts, please feel free to continue to post.
Greyslayer
06/03/05 03:49 PM
216.14.198.61

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Well I think I should add that if the shot does go internal then a second critical chance is then rolled (or at least that is what we play).
OldTymePlayer
06/03/05 04:03 PM
216.143.4.8

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That makes sense, thanks for the additional information.

Out of curiosity, how does your group play “snake eyes” or “2” on a To-Hit roll? Some weapons such as the Ultra A/C have it spelled out that the weapon jams-up and is not usable until repair…. Do you guys have similar rules for other weapons, do you just call it a miss fire or automatic miss? Do you ever allow a hit on a “2”?

Thanks again.
chez
06/03/05 04:10 PM
62.173.81.122

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WOAH!!!!
You really play a crit chance!!!
So you can fire at an untouched mech, roll snake-eyes , then roll 10,11,0r 12 get 2 gyro or 3 engine crits and the mech dies!!!!!
That is (searches vocabulary for word) unbelievable!!!!
Also your post talks about no physical attacks when the gyro is destroyed - does that mean the mech functions as normal (with minus's admittedly, well I hope admittedly)
How does the mech stay standing?
If it does fall down how does it get back up?
Do you also play hopping rules for mechs that have had one leg blown away?

12000 miles obviously changes peoples perspectives

chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Greyslayer
06/03/05 04:13 PM
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In 'Battletech' if you need 2 or less to hit then it is an automatic hit (Ultras still roll to jam though). In Mechwarrior 2 RPG rules a double 1 always missed.

With the former part in mind it made little sense to on the whole have a jamming roll associated with a 'to-hit' roll, it in fact has no bearing on whether a weapon hit as to what the second round actually did. I personally play the rules as they are but in reality I would prefer to roll the how many hit and if a snake eyes then the weapon jammed (even if you missed).
Greyslayer
06/03/05 04:29 PM
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Quote:

WOAH!!!!
You really play a crit chance!!!
So you can fire at an untouched mech, roll snake-eyes , then roll 10,11,0r 12 get 2 gyro or 3 engine crits and the mech dies!!!!!
That is (searches vocabulary for word) unbelievable!!!!




Or a 52% chance of NO CRITS. Believe me your method does not fair a better examination, on average of 36 critical chances a player should roll about 22 criticals whereas every time the snake eyes came up under your system it always generated a critical or 36 from 36. Sure there is a chance of taking out the mech with one hit but it is exceedingly remote.

Quote:

Also your post talks about no physical attacks when the gyro is destroyed - does that mean the mech functions as normal (with minus's admittedly, well I hope admittedly)
How does the mech stay standing?
If it does fall down how does it get back up?




A destroyed gyro means the mech is never getting back up again until that component is replaced. That being said you may say that a mech can not physical attack then, but there are thrash attacks against infantry and so on which obviously cannot be used if under the stipulation of a destroyed gyro the mech cannot make a physical attack.

Quote:

Do you also play hopping rules for mechs that have had one leg blown away?




A Bipedal (two legged) mech with one leg is reduced to 1 MP and +5 to pilot skill checks for the remaining parts of the battle or until repair/replaced. Quads get a little ripped off when reduced to three legs but I cannot clearly remember those rules off-hand (I don't have rule books with me at the moment).

Quote:

12000 miles obviously changes peoples perspectives




almost 20,000 kilometers? hmmmmm I wonder where that is? As for perspectives it depends as we keep finding that a person's misconception could easily contaminate gameplay for years without being found out until a fresh player comes along and shows otherwise.
chez
06/03/05 04:34 PM
62.173.81.122

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To be continued.......
Will log on later

chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Wraith
06/03/05 05:37 PM
68.67.32.212

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My group uses snake eyes as an automatic miss, and then we roll on the MaxTech "Critical Damage" chart. One guy's Masakari Prime had different degrees of damage to all 4 of its PPCs last time we played. LOL
-Wraith
OldTymePlayer
06/03/05 06:01 PM
216.143.4.8

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That sounds like a pretty cool idea. Do you always roll against the chart on "snake eyes"? I'm not familuar with that chart (although I think I have that book somewhere)..... does the chart always cause issues to the weapon or does it have some "nothing happens / misfire" type entries?
chez
06/03/05 07:19 PM
195.92.67.71

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Back now.
It's obviously a case of how you are taught the game.
An experienced player showed us the game and we just took it as gospel that snake-eyes meant 1 crit.
I've never thought to query it before
Even the guy who showed up and said he did it your way, we laughed.
Still, and I know this is not conclusive, in the fluff there are many occasions of this but I cannot think of any that appear to be more than 1 crit ie a gyro and an engine.
eg Patrick Kell vs Yorinaga Kurita
Ardan Sortek vs anonymous Awesome pilot
It does give you another "Golden BB" option of 1 shot 1 kill
ie Headcap
Auto crit - ammo (who has ammo CT?)
Auto-crit destroy engine / gyro
Does this make your game more deadly than mine. I'm not sure.
Yes I get more crits over 36 rolls, but I will never destroy engine/gyro on an otherwise untouched mech

Do your tournaments do this as well?

chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Nightward
06/03/05 09:47 PM
132.234.251.211

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Yep.

The rule is Armour Damagee for the attack, with an added Critical Hit chance. If you go internal, there are two chances of a critical.

We haven't played with AP ammo, but theoretically you could get three chances of critical on one location with that stuff, which would be hideous.

It can make the game more deadly, because you can take out a gyro or engine in one turn. Plinking like that is fairly uncommon, though I've seen it done a few times and managed the feat once or twice myself.

In the fiction for BT, the best pilots seem to roll an awful lot of 2s and 12s for hit location. Phelan Patrick Kell Wolf Ward Kell does it a lot, as does Kai Allard-Liao.

As far as rolling twos on your To-Hit roll...it will hit or miss depending on what your target number is. It is possible to hit and freeze a rapid-fire weapon, though it's more common with RACs on higher ROFs (where you can jam out on less than 4s).
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Wraith
06/03/05 10:31 PM
68.67.32.212

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Energy Weapons Critical Damage

2D6* Roll Effect
2-3 Minor Damage; no effect
4-5 Moderate damage; attacks with weapon add +1 modifier
6-7 Focus misaligned; weapon inflicts -1 damage, additional +1 to-hit modifier applies to shots at medium and long range
8-9 Crystal damage; weapon generates +1 Heat Point. To-Hit Roll result of 2 for an attack with the weapon causes overload with effects identical to an ammo explosion, infliciting damage equal to the damage inflicted by the weapon.
10-11 Weapon severely damaged; cannot fire
12 Weapon destroyed

Ballistic and Artillery Weapons Critical Damage

2D6* Roll Effect
2-3 Minor Damage; no effect
4-5 Moderate damage; attacks with weapon add +1 modifier
6-7 Barrel damage; To-Hit Roll result of 2 for attack with weapon causes it to jam
8-9 Ammo feed damage; weapons that can fire various types of ammo may no longer switch betwen them, must fire last ammo type used. To-Hit Roll result of 2 for attacks with weapon causes an ammo explosion in the ammo bin that fed that shot.
10-11 Weapon severely damaged; cannot fire
12 Weapon destroyed

Missile Weapons Critical Damage

2D6* Roll Effect
2-3 Minor Damage; no effect
4-5 Moderate damage; attacks with weapon add +1 modifier
6-7 Damage to ranging system; shots at medium and long range suffer an additional +1 to-hit modifier
8-9 Ammo feed damage; weapons that can fire various types of ammo may no longer switch betwen them, must fire last ammo type used. To-Hit Roll result of 2 for attacks with weapon causes an ammo explosion in the ammo bin that fed that shot.
10-11 Weapon severely damaged; cannot fire
12 Weapon destroyed

Equipment Critical Damage

2D6* Roll Effect
2-7 Minor Damage; no effect
8-9 Moderate damage; player must roll 7+ before each use for damaged item to work
10-11 Severe damage; player must roll 10+ before each use for damaged item to work
12 Item destroyed

*Add number of critical slots damaged to this result
____________________________________________

Okay, so this chart has an official use: playing level 3 rules, when you get a critical on a weapon/item, you roll on the chart and add the number of crits damaged/already damaged to your roll, and apply the effect. You only roll once per round per weapon. The effects stack, so if you get an ammo jam twice, now your weapon jams on a 3+. If more than half of a weapon's crits have been damaged, it is considered to be destroyed. These rules are used for multi-crit weapons and equipment, not engines, heat sinks, cockpits, or gyros.

If you use these as written, it means an IS Large Laser has an edge over the Clan equivalent, since the IS LL only has a 1/6 chance of being rendered inoperative on the first crit to it.

But, my group uses it for snake eyes on the to-hit roll. Any weapon that you roll snake eyes with makes a roll on the appropriate chart. Add the number of times you've rolled snake eyes with it since the weapon was last repaired to the roll.

So, an unfortunate HBK-4P has a cursed ML, and rolls snake eyes with it, for the 3rd time this battle. It rolls a 5, adds 2 for a 7, Focus Misaligned.

Only having a modified result that severely damges or destroys the weapon will result in it being inoperative for the rest of the battle. Well, I suppose rolling a snake eyes after a Crystal Damage would destroy a laser as well...

Think I got everything, we also use this chart for tanks and aerofighters. Adds some spice to the game.
-Wraith
Greyslayer
06/04/05 05:53 AM
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Quote:

Yes I get more crits over 36 rolls, but I will never destroy engine/gyro on an otherwise untouched mech

Do your tournaments do this as well?




Just one crit to a gyro makes a mech very much a far lesser machine. In this case the automatic crit makes this a far more likely event.

For a player like me who just seems to plain suck at rolling die I can roll plenty of snake eyes but really struggle to convert crits so automatic crits would completely change results from many games that I play.

In tourneys we have had no players looking at playing it any other way, this being said I have thought that perhaps we could use the floating crits, just to stop the snake eyes- gyro hit from being such a prevalent event.
Wraith
06/04/05 09:40 AM
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Floating crits are fun, I have trouble converting as well but one time in a lvl 1 game, my crit hit the SRM-6 ammo in the left arm of my friend's Banshee (only ammo on the mech!).
-Wraith
chez
06/04/05 10:31 AM
62.173.81.122

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We've often thought about floating crits but never actually used them.
Snake-eyes is always a jam requiring a break in combat and an easy tech roll to unjam.(The weapon does not fire at all)
We experimented with a 12 always hitting even if due to movement cover etc a 13 or more was required but that just lead to energy weapons being fired at impossible targets on the off-chance so we scrapped it.
Once you've got a crit do you roll for the top half/bottom half of the table and then that result stands regardless. I haven't explained that very well , an example will illustrate better
A lvl1 Archer only has 1 location filled in the bottom half of it's left/right torso (LRM ammo). Once the bottom half of the table is obtained is that an automatic BOOM or do you totally re-roll if 2-6 is obtained?
One group I played with did that and Archers became considerably less mean because of it.
I only ask beacause I am starting to doubt my understanding of the basic tenets of the game

chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Greyslayer
06/04/05 10:37 AM
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seen a glancing srm 6 floating crit the cockpit... not myself of course I've probably only ever taken the cockpit out on a mech a couple of times through all the years I've played.
Greyslayer
06/04/05 10:57 AM
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two methods:

1) roll d6 (1-3 uppper 4-6 lower) we call this the controlling dice and then we roll a second dice to determine the actual crit. If that crit does not exist you have to roll from the controlling dice onwards again.

2) Use the closest single dice size and roll it (in the case of the archer quoted a d8, reroll if no crit). This also can speed the game up if you look for the logic of say three crits use 1,2 for slot one 3,4 for slot two and 5,6 for slot three etc.
Wraith
06/04/05 12:16 PM
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We've always rerolled the whole crit location, now looking in my BMR that's the way to do it, in fact. Pg. 37:

"If the player rolls damage for a slot for which there is no component; a slot that cannot take critical damage such as endo steel, CASE, or ferro-fibrous; or a slot that has already taken a critical hit, he rolls both dice again."

The Transferring Criticals is something that we've never even tried, since we mostly play level 1. Some of those fun mechs that have nothing in the side torsos, get a crit in them and it will transfer to the center torso, making those mechs much less survivable. Anyone else ever used that rule?
-Wraith
Wraith
06/04/05 12:19 PM
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My personal best was just taking the head off of a Sunder with my Viking at range 21. First round, a 5 point missile hit to the head, 2nd round, a 5 point and another 5 point to the head. No partial cover, and the LRM-20 that did both of the hits second round rolled a 12 on how many missiles hit. Made the enemy C3 network go away
-Wraith
Greyslayer
06/04/05 02:37 PM
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The way we have played transfer criticals for the last few years at least has been that if there were no criticals to hit at the start of that phase then all critical rolls transfer via the damage flow chart. I don't have the latest rulebook though so it may have changed but I think the rule is level 1 to start with.
Toontje
06/04/05 05:20 PM
84.24.165.226

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I've shot a floating crit cockpit once. Quite unreal. We resolved to making it a pilot hit instead since it was a duel size. Obviously he fainted, resulting in a targeted MPL head hit next turn, smoking.
Rather to blow up, then.
Wraith
06/04/05 05:35 PM
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Yeah, it's a rule in BMR: Revised at least, if in previous rounds all criticals have been damaged, or if their were no eligible critical slots to be damaged, the crit transfers to the next location. We don't like it, so don't use it
-Wraith
Greyslayer
06/04/05 05:52 PM
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That would be a bit of a rort really though as in the case of using normal non-floating criticals a mech with no crits in the torsos would just face empty torsos to the enemy and be immune to snake eyes rolls.

At least be good enough to make the rule for torsos only (cannot transfer from limbs).
Wraith
06/04/05 06:05 PM
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True, if we didn't use floating crits... Until about 4 months ago I didn't even knew crits could transfer, I was reading BMR during a gaming session and stumbled across it (some of the other guys are quite new to BT, so were wanting some clarifications). I justify that they don't transfer by using some imagination: a round slams into the side of the mech, shredding the internal structure, but there are no vital components there, thus no crit can happen.
-Wraith
Nightward
06/06/05 01:40 AM
203.217.85.202

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It keeps the game a bit shorter, is all. And you only get a crit chance; it's not garuanteed.

Having things pass through locations that have nothing hittable does irritate me a little, but it's a rule that applies to everyone. Upswing is that evey time you loose something because of it, your opponent probably will, too.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Wraith
06/06/05 02:26 AM
68.67.32.212

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Right, crits aren't automatic, I know you have to roll for them This rule transfers the crit in.

Say your opponent gets lucky, and strips the armor from an arm, then puts 2 LB cluster rounds into the arm. 2 crit chances, rolls 2 crits each. The arm has no equipment in it, so all 4 actuators are now dead. Next turn, a hit to the arm will essentially give him a crit in your torso, even though the weapon hit the arm. Your arm is hanging useless, and when I hit it, I cause damage to your engine shielding! I just don't like it.
-Wraith
religon
09/03/05 06:59 PM
24.225.70.5

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Quote:

We've often thought about floating crits but never actually used them.
Snake-eyes is always a jam requiring a break in combat and an easy tech roll to unjam.(The weapon does not fire at all)
We experimented with a 12 always hitting even if due to movement cover etc a 13 or more was required but that just lead to energy weapons being fired at impossible targets on the off-chance so we scrapped it.
Once you've got a crit do you roll for the top half/bottom half of the table and then that result stands regardless. I haven't explained that very well , an example will illustrate better
A lvl1 Archer only has 1 location filled in the bottom half of it's left/right torso (LRM ammo). Once the bottom half of the table is obtained is that an automatic BOOM or do you totally re-roll if 2-6 is obtained?
One group I played with did that and Archers became considerably less mean because of it.
I only ask beacause I am starting to doubt my understanding of the basic tenets of the game
chez




Perhaps you could reinstitute the rule as...ammo weapons always hit on a "12" even if they need a 13/14/15 to hit. Would bypass the desperate-laser-every-round tactic.
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