CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
|
Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
#124852 - 02/01/06 08:44 PM (24.32.87.123)
|
|
|
I was reading a SciFi book that had tanks in it and got an idea. The tanks in the book were able to use onboard MG's to shoot down incoming projectiles to include Artillery (IDF) and missiles (SRM/LRM).
I was thinking this could be applied to Neveron. Currently IDF rules the battlefield. There is no defense other than speed, and in the (im)proper terrain, speed is not always an option. It would be nice to have an active defense against incoming artillery.
Artillery comes in on a ballistic path. That means it arcs in towards the target along an easily predicted path and vector. It is childs play to fire rounds into this path to destroy the incoming projectile. The US Navy has the technology to do it today:
CIWS
It is no stretch at all for a unit possessing MG (which in BT is really a battery of multiple weapons) to shoot down incoming artillery/missiles as long as your sensors can detect the firing unit. Artillery (ballistic) would be easier to shoot down than a missile (direct fire) so the rules would reflect this:
This would be an automatic system. Pilot gunnery plays no part in the RNG rolls. IDF fired directly at a unit possessing MG(s) has a chance to be engaged and destroyed by the MG system. MG must be in the arc incoming fire comes from. The RNG roll for this should be 6+ or 7+. Incoming missiles should need an 7+ or 8+. Each MG gets to engage a single incoming IDF/LRM salvo. This means that you can saturate the MG point defense system.
MG's can also target IDF/missile not targeted directly at them. They can only provide point defense for units in range of the MG. The roll is also more difficult, +2 if at med range and +4 if at long range. (So MG mk II's would be better for this due to their longer range)
MG's are one of the least used weapons in neveron. Mechs with MG ammo have that ammo dropped first thing in battle to reduce likelyhood of ammo explosion. Vehicles with MG's rarely get to use them. Using this system should weaken the power IDF has on the game while making mechs/vehs with MG's more useful.
(edit: and yes I know BT has a AMS system already. Problem is Neveron does not have AMS but does have heaps of unused MG's)
Edited by CaBhaal (02/01/06 08:56 PM)
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#124854 - 02/01/06 08:55 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
I like it but I'd propose that mechs are the only units with sophisticated enough targeting systems to do this.
Give each MG a chance to shoot down 1 artillery round per turn, the exact chances left to the admins. If later deemed to be too low of a chance it'd be a simple matter of changing a number to increase the odds to hit. My MGs rarely get fired on my mechs, I normally don't even reload them but leave them empty so as to reduce ammo pops.
Probably a flat chance to hit an idf round as its computer controlled.
I think this would be perfect for reducing the superiority of IDF.
That failing... You remember those new vehicles we were promised last fall? How about a dedicated anti-IDF vehicle. Fairly heavy and fairly expensive it could put up a hail of rounds to destroy incoming fire in the same manner.
|
CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124855 - 02/01/06 09:12 PM (24.32.87.123)
|
|
|
I think I agree with that. Otherwise people will just slap MG's on their towers, preventing SNP from engaging them.
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#124856 - 02/01/06 10:06 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
Yeah and they'd just put a batt of cheap aivs in zones for anti-idf defense, adding to the number of units in game. Mechs on the other hand... 
|
davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124857 - 02/01/06 10:15 PM (12.219.244.44)
|
|
|
I REALLY like this idea.
|
JuanValdez
Newbie
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 24
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#124858 - 02/01/06 10:51 PM (12.219.244.56)
|
|
|
An excellent Idea.
As for towers with MG's being too useful, they could still be overwhelmed and if the MG was used to engage income fire, it wouldn't be available to engage other troups. IDF could be used to distract the tower crews while other forces move in for the kill.
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: JuanValdez]
#124861 - 02/01/06 11:28 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
I still say only mechs, people would go overboard and build towers with 8 MGs or fill any remaining space in zones with cheap 25 cf mg towers.
One thing that has to be looked at closely is balance.
We want IDF to still be useful while balancing it enough so they are not uber like now. If you added too much anti-idf (forever to now be known as AIDF) to the game the inbalance would still be there just shifted to the other spectrum. The people who invested in IDF and the tactics that revolve around using and defeating it would be screwed.
|
cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124869 - 02/02/06 12:25 AM (71.100.240.191)
|
|
|
your idea is good but why not use lrms? the air force right now has a system made to shot down nukes the missle homes in and blows up a few yards away taking out the engine part of the missle leaving the nuke part ok just a thought. i dont think it should be tower based vech or mech only just an opinion.
--------------------
yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
|
davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: cbtgod]
#124870 - 02/02/06 12:31 AM (12.219.244.44)
|
|
|
primarily b/c MGs suck right now. They have virtually no use. LRMs on the other hand a re quite useful as they are. Giving LRMs this benefit doesn't improve the game considerably, and could cause problems with game balance. Not to mention, would you want to waste your LRM ammo on an IDF 5 round?
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: davion76]
#124873 - 02/02/06 12:40 AM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
One drawback of using MGs as opposed to LRMs may actually work to help play balance.
MGs have a range of 3. They'd only work to shoot down IDF rounds attacking any units within 3 hexes, maybe including a range panalty. Harder to shoot down IDF targeting nearby units as opposed to a round heading right at you. That way a couple units cannot cover the entire map.
|
Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124876 - 02/02/06 02:20 AM (62.254.128.6)
|
|
|
This is finally a good idea to counter IDF hordes, jumping mechs armed with MGs wud be relatively invulnerable to IDF fire, the way it should be. I also suggest that a roll for shooting down the incoming fire is only made when the unit would be hit by the IDF fire. Definitely keep to mechs only, vehicles like AIVs are just that, AIVs, they are designed to use MGs not as point defence tanks. Possibly a special point defence tank could be designed with individual rules but make sure its 1 of a kind
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Malachi]
#124877 - 02/02/06 02:55 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
Yeah, I find it an interesting idea.
But it would be nicer if you need an upgrade to the MG in order to enable that. For a small fee of say tonnage*0.1m per MG.
A non-randomised upgrade that is.
We can call this the Machine gun-MkIII.
Let it use the standard MG rounds.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#124881 - 02/02/06 06:52 AM (139.174.165.124)
|
|
|
how do you want to shoot down an incoming idf shell? even if you hit, the impulse of the MG bullet is small compared to that of the very heavy shell. the trajectory would be changed only a slightly. still hiting near the original target. for normal artillery this wouldn't change anything. neveron artilllery seems to hit directly, so the shells must be guided in the last part of the approach. (i think nimon told something about a copperhead project of us armed forces)
the chance to hit such a small thing as a shell isn't rather high either, especially with the low rof of a neveron 12.7 mm machinegun.
it's not as large as a missile.
otoh if you can shoot down artillery shells, you need to shoot down lrms and srms too. but SRM are already almost useless in nev, and lrm mechs aren't the kings of the battlefield either, as to hit numbers are to high, and ammunition is not enough.
|
SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#124889 - 02/02/06 07:53 AM (130.82.111.149)
|
|
|
another stupid fix for the IDF problem
suck it up, removing them is the best fix
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SubZero]
#124897 - 02/02/06 08:52 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
Removing them totally is even stupider, SZ.
The problem with IDF is just that everyone is overly dependent on them. And that magnified the effect to such a degree that you would think, "IDF is way too uber! Get rid of IDF!"
It's not as if 1 IDF Cannon is oh-so-uber-powerful that a mech will die instantly upon getting hit by 1.
I've again and again suggested a significant nerfing of IDF, and towers, but I wonder if admins ever paid attention. =|
Again I paraphrase: IDF is an ideal support weapon, it is a good tool to implement, but people are using them like their main forces.
You need to learn how to look at things from another direction. Taking the easy way out seems to be what you want everytime. :P
Not that I'm putting you down.
Of course, some of your suggestions are actually very good. The terrain suggestion for example.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
Zoltan
Corporal
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 74
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#124898 - 02/02/06 09:00 AM (130.127.99.148)
|
|
|
Uhhhh, have any of you ever heard of AMS??
In L2 Battletech, there are point defense machine gun systems available to both clan and IS called anti missle systems. In L3 clanners also had LAMS, a laser based system that shot down missles.
The idea of shooting down artillery shells is retarded. The reason you can shoot down missles is because they travel slower than artillery shells and are much more fragile.
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Zoltan]
#124900 - 02/02/06 09:10 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
Zoltan, do you even bother reading the starting post? lol.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
Octurion
Private
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 37
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Zoltan]
#124901 - 02/02/06 09:19 AM (192.149.109.218)
|
|
|
when you are fireing a MG at a shell or missile is it not the impact of the bullet that destories the round or the impact that pushes it off course. The point is to hit the warhead and set the shell/missile off in mid-air before it reaches its target. Also why MGs are used for AMS is bcause you can fire so many so fast you dont need to aim or have a fancy targeting computer to hit the shell/missile. You put up a wall of metal in its path which gives you a good chance of hitting the warhead.
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#124902 - 02/02/06 09:24 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
Quote:
otoh if you can shoot down artillery shells, you need to shoot down lrms and srms too. but SRM are already almost useless in nev, and lrm mechs aren't the kings of the battlefield either, as to hit numbers are to high, and ammunition is not enough.
I did suggest change to how missiles are rolled for numbers of missile hitting.
But admins just keep saying theirs are better.
Neveron Missile Dice:
LRM: *D5
Where * is LRM Rack size divided by 5.
SRM: 1D*
Where * is SRM Rack size.
This sort of underpowers SRM6 I feel. More chance of 6 Missiles hitting, but less stable.
LRM is more problematic.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#124904 - 02/02/06 09:32 AM (12.219.244.44)
|
|
|
Most artillery shells are not a Kinetic kill type of ammunition. This means they have a fuze and explosives. hitting a HE shell with another bullet will either detonate the round, or likely create a hole large enough to make the round go low order rather than high order.
|
SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: davion76]
#124906 - 02/02/06 10:15 AM (130.82.107.135)
|
|
|
artillery shells are most of the time too small to be hit
|
mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: davion76]
#124908 - 02/02/06 10:21 AM (128.243.220.22)
|
|
|
This does actually sound good, except I think it should be anti-idf only, not anti-missile as well.
As for whoever was talking about realism, nev isn'#t realistic, it's about what works better in the game context.
--------------------
Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
|
Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Octurion]
#124914 - 02/02/06 12:13 PM (129.138.30.190)
|
|
|
Actually this doesn't work nearly as well as you would think IRL. You need an advanced computer to track, target, and fire at the incoming projectile and also have a very high rate of fire to even have a decent shot at it.
Take the example of 'R2-D2' (yes, that is the nick name. Full name is Phalanx CIWS) thing we have defending capitol ships in the US navy. R2-D2 is merely part of an integrated system. It has 2 (yes 2) radar systems. The first is a search radar that... well... duh. When the search radar finds a potential target, it passes to a logic controler to determine if the potential target is in fact something that should be shot down.
At this point the mount moves to face the incoming threat and hands things over to the tracking radar. The track radar keeps track of the target until it is at a range that it can be killed. It will then either fire on its own (when the time is right) or recomend firing to the opperator (depending on how the system is set).
When it fires it throws out a truely insane ammount of ammo (75 rounds per second) and still only has a chance to get the incoming projectile. If it misses it has a to recgonize the target is still incoming, recalculate, and fire again. Typically it has a chance for 3-4 bursts from the time a missile gets into range till the time it would hit the ship (again iirc). Even with those chances it is entirely possible the missile will get through, though I am not sure on exact numbers I would give it 40% chance to get through R2-D2.
Not tearing appart the idea or anything, just taking issue with the statement of 'you don't need to aim or have fancy targeting computer' and 'gives you a good chance of hitting the warhead'. Both of which are completely wrong statements.
This is an addition I would like to see, though maybe as an upgrade to mechs.
--------------------
_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
|
Octurion
Private
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 37
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kit_fox]
#124918 - 02/02/06 02:17 PM (192.149.109.218)
|
|
|
ok let me clear up what I ment. when you compare todays tech to BT level tech ours is alot more simple and not as "fancy". I would think it would not take as much effort for a mechs computer to be able to do what Kit explain compare to todays standard. Also 40% is pretty good, even if it only hit 25% or even 10% it is still more effect then having no missile defense which is why they use them on ships today.
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Octurion]
#124921 - 02/02/06 03:22 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
Quit making everything a physics problem compared to modern day technology or expecting it to be 100% like battletech. This (Neveron) isn't 2006 and it isn't battletech.
It is not wildly unbelievable to assume this is possible. (After all we're piloting biped machines running at 120 kph+ powered with fusion reactors that interface with a neurohelmet for controls shooting particle projection and lasers at each other from water zones next to islands that we instantly filled in with giant flying dumptrucks while the 100 ton mechs launch themselves through the air with jumpjets.) A rhinos jump jets doing the equivilent of picking up 1.5 Abrams tanks and launching it 90 meters while landing safely, shooting while in flight of course. It would be in the "best interest" of the game and help restore some play balance. Can you just accept that for what it is?
You guys astound me, IDF is over powered, mechs are under used. A small change that would help correct some of that inbalance and some of you simply discount that we couldn't do it now so couldn't do it then?
Why not AMS? Well anyone can make a half hearted attempt to explain why "on nev" AMS isn't possible.
Maybe the missiles have a funny motion to them since they are powered flight that doesn't allow a program to calculate where they will be in X seconds and with what vector? Like a funky corkscrew pattern a random flight pattern meant to evade fire.
Maybe they have small jammers or other ECM type features built into the missiles that would render them too hard to hit? Maybe they fly NOE so you don't get a clean shot on them? Whatever.
Why can we hit IDF rounds then?
Maybe they have a very slow flight speed, that would make sense as Artillery on nev has a very short range. Like lobbing a baseball underhanded. Ever see HEP round being fired in real life? If you stand behind the weapon you can actually see the round leave the barrel. This trajectory (of an unguided, unpowered, uncontrolled object) is also very easy to calculate and anticipate.
Maybe the anti-idf MGs fire a hail of bullets in a cone at the calculated intersection point. Any bullets hit it would either detonate the round or deflect it enough to miss its target and as nev doesn't calculate where misses go it just goes away.
Maybe the anti-idf MGs could be converted to small lasers to make it more acceptable physics wise? Personally I don't care about the semantics, they can be explained away.
|
Pimpslap
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/13/03
Posts: 365
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124923 - 02/02/06 03:43 PM (68.229.251.70)
|
|
|
the problem i see is that this just continues the trend of putting in more stuff to fix more stuff thats already known to be borked. The end results will end up being even more borked then current. For something like this to work you would need maybe a dozen or so mechs per each city, and i would say that the heavier mechs would have better tracking computers so they woudl do better with this, so you now have 12 assault mechs per 1k in your empire, thats 120 mechs you add at level 11 for nothing more then standing around. If you dont have 1k zones this number would even be higher to have decent AIDF. So now you either have massive OMT on top of the sniper issue, that this might or might not fix, or a complete rework of tht OMT system. Sounds like alot of work to fix a broken game mechanic.
--------------------
Harbingers of Chaos
COME WAR WITH US!!
|
mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Pimpslap]
#124927 - 02/02/06 05:43 PM (128.243.220.22)
|
|
|
So... antiidf system
Or
Make tower range multis 1.25 and 1.5* for the current costs of 2* ands 3*, remove snipers.
--------------------
Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Pimpslap]
#124932 - 02/02/06 08:02 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
Well it'd be interesting to be able to do this. I wouldn't want to see the ability to totally nullify IDF only reduce its effectiveness. I know people wouldn't be stacking 36 assault mechs in cities to stop a sniper batt. IMHO this would be fun to have around and a help for people participating in an active defense. You simply move some mechs to the city under seige or if you counter attack with mechs the attackers snipers won't be such a pain.
Also you can tailor the effectiveness based on the needs of the game, for instance;
Making to overall hit numbers for the MG higher or lower.
Making larger mechs have a better to hit chance.
Giving moving mechs a more severe chance to miss.
Allowing mechs to either only shoot IDF shot at that mech or allowing them to shoot down any IDF that targets a friendly unit in range.
You're right though this is a fix for a broken system. And based on current track records they don't really ever correct much but fix here and there.
|
sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124946 - 02/03/06 07:40 AM (139.174.165.124)
|
|
|
battletech computer technology is far behind our modern standards. don't forget it was designed in the early 80s, and with a los-tech idea.
guided missiles are so rare that they are practical unknown in BT.
for the probabilty of hit the solid angle (Ω = A/R˛) of the object should be important.
3 hexes are 90 m. 0.20 m for the shell.
0.2**2*pi/100**2 = 0.12/10e4 = 1.2e-5 sr
for a 5 MOA spread for the gun:
5 MOA at 100m is 5/60 * pi/180 *100 = 0.15 m
solid angle:
0.15**2*pi/100**2 = 7e-6
so if the targeting is correct the gun would hit.
detection with the radar should be in principle acurate enough (X band wavelength is about 3 cm)
i can't estimat the acuracy of the extrapolation of the trajectory. it depends to much on details of the flight physics and acuracy of measuring the projectiles position before. but it seems like this is the crucial problem.
|
mumbles
Sergeant
Reged: 03/06/05
Posts: 147
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#124948 - 02/03/06 09:39 AM (24.37.41.207)
|
|
|
I would like to add most Anti-missile guns are gattling guns and have a 10 000 RPM so i dont MG can handle that mount of fire power.
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: mumbles]
#124953 - 02/03/06 11:08 AM (129.130.43.40)
|
|
|
sdog and mumbles
Yes you are both absolutely correct.
Because of this we should now remove everything from the game that we cannot quantify in modern day terms and technology. Forget any fun factors invovled.
Quote:
Quit making everything a physics problem compared to modern day technology or expecting it to be 100% like battletech. This (Neveron) isn't 2006 and it isn't battletech.
Welcome to a GAME set over a millenium from where we are today, so what were we doing 1248 years ago?
I can handle people saying, "it's not needed", "it'll upset balance", or even pimp's "wrong way to fix this shit" attitude. But cmon, just because you can't wrap your mind around this idea for a game 'based' on battletech doesn't mean its not possible. Also welcome to 3254, not 3050...
|
Octurion
Private
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 37
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124956 - 02/03/06 02:06 PM (192.149.109.218)
|
|
|
lol, i think some ppl are just enjoying a good debate, not trying to state this shouldnt be added because it cant be done in real life. It hunman nature to go off on tangents sometimes :-P .
This would really help to balances things I htink and make the game more fun which is what really is important.
|
CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: mumbles]
#124957 - 02/03/06 03:33 PM (24.32.87.123)
|
|
|
I based my estimates on a MG *cluster* of at least 4, 20mm guns. These have a cyclic rate of 9600 rpm today. I'm fairly certain we can improve on that given 1000 years to work on it.
CaB
|
cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#124965 - 02/04/06 12:43 AM (71.100.240.191)
|
|
|
have you guys heard of the x-15 asslt rifle fires a round that you can set to explode in side a room for a frag effect this is today this is supposed to replace the m16 in around 2009-2010 face it cbt and nev are in fantasy land nothing makes any sense in either system
--------------------
yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
|
SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: cbtgod]
#124966 - 02/04/06 12:47 AM (80.218.224.18)
|
|
|
CBT MGs are 12.7mm MGs
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SubZero]
#124970 - 02/04/06 02:43 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
And there's a reason why I suggested making this a upgrade to MG-armed mechs.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
tranzoandris
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 406
Loc: Wherever. Whoever. Whatever.
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#124975 - 02/04/06 08:42 AM (65.0.125.85)
|
|
|
This would, however, pump up the cost of units such as the machine gun weilding spider and other fast small dammage mechs. I think this will just end up leading to an overall increase of prices on the mech market. Lower levels will have to end up using purely vehicles. I say leave it as it is. At least until I get to lv10. 
--------------------
"The lightning is a lone warrior. It strikes down all without care of what it hits. Just think what a controled army of lightning could do!"
-Undiscovered Journal of Konda in Kamigawa
Try the promo code "Swift is the wind"!
|
Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#124980 - 02/04/06 01:51 PM (84.24.165.226)
|
|
|
I think it's a decent solution. Make it a GS roll to hit an incoming round, with the margin of succes the max number of rounds that can be swatted that round.
Would protect mechs a bit, without invulnerability.
--------------------
Rather to blow up, then.
|
Aunduril
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/21/05
Posts: 386
Loc: In my Whammy
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Toontje]
#124986 - 02/04/06 07:10 PM (209.86.37.10)
|
|
|
Has anyone considered what would happen if ppl just guarded their snipers with Anti-idf mechs? I think it would end up favoring IDF and not nerfing it much. especially if the mech can only shoot at idf rounds within the mg range.
--------------------
"What we do in life echos into eternity. " - Maximus - The Gladiator.
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Aunduril]
#124987 - 02/04/06 07:15 PM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
hmmm aunduril raised up a very good point.
So if mechs armed with MG can protect only itself...
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Aunduril]
#124990 - 02/04/06 08:33 PM (24.32.87.123)
|
|
|
That would be the point Aunduril. So we can crack cities that have 30+ IDF towers. Otherwise you are forced to run them out of ammo and/or fatigue the city to hell and back.
This is not something I am suggesting to help the infra farmers more secure behing their towers.
CaB
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Aunduril]
#124996 - 02/04/06 11:31 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
That is a very good point.
The most MGs on a mech are 2 I believe. That means each mech at most can have a chance to shoot down 1 snipers worth of firing.
So yeah people would guard snipers with IDF mechs. Means as a generalization you'd need 1 mech with 2 MGs per sniper you are trying to stop from hitting you but the more mechs you have the less IDF you have.
|
Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#125001 - 02/05/06 02:43 AM (84.24.165.226)
|
|
|
I would advise against using it as area defence, but only the defendant mech benefiting.
--------------------
Rather to blow up, then.
|
tranzoandris
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 406
Loc: Wherever. Whoever. Whatever.
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125033 - 02/05/06 12:45 PM (65.0.125.85)
|
|
|
Protecting only itself would probably make it better. There is still the whole fact that mechs with MGs will pop up in price. Would this also gaurd against City Artillery IDF fire? That would make the abillity a little overpowered also...
--------------------
"The lightning is a lone warrior. It strikes down all without care of what it hits. Just think what a controled army of lightning could do!"
-Undiscovered Journal of Konda in Kamigawa
Try the promo code "Swift is the wind"!
|
Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#125034 - 02/05/06 02:13 PM (84.24.165.226)
|
|
|
City arty is idf-5 after all..
Ammo, while good for mg's, is not eternal..
--------------------
Rather to blow up, then.
|
CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#125040 - 02/05/06 04:05 PM (24.32.87.123)
|
|
|
How is the ability to shoot down something fired at you when you cannot shoot at the firing unit overpowered? City artillery is pretty dumb as it is. Sounds like more: "I wanna sit in my cities with IDF towers so you can't attack me" BS.... An active defense not only makes sense, but it is fair.
Also, right now mechs with MG are avoided like the plague, due to wasted tonnage and possibilty of ammo explosion. If a game change makes them useful, they *should* rise in price and that is a good thing. It would mean that the all energy weapon mechs that are favored on the battlefield will lose an edge. It forces players to round out their mech forces more. There are several Warhammer and Battlemaster variants that would become much more useful than they are now. CPLT-K2 as well. I'm sure there are many more.
In a wargame those that understand the concept of combined arms should do well. That means assembling a superior force from differnt units. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This leaves room for experimentation and tweaking.
Neveron currently does not have much in the way of combined arms. It has a single winning formula: IDF. Adding an active defense against artillery levels the playing field for everyone. Anyone who says different does *not* want that field leveled. They want to maintain the status quo of hiding in cities, afraid to fight a foe on an honorable field of battle. (In other words: pussies)
CaB
|
wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#125042 - 02/05/06 04:19 PM (128.210.50.123)
|
|
|
Oh My God,
firing at a projectile with a MG??? Show me something like this in real life. And dont come me with the rotating canons which spit out 6000 rounds a minute and are radar guided. Even they can not hit another projectile. They might be able to hit a missile if you are lucky but thats it.
1st its for sure not an MG
2nd it would never ever work against IDF or other Arti shells, no matter what ueber system you come up this.
So from a real life perspective the idea is friggin Noob.
But game wise I am the Noob so you experts decide 
|
wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125045 - 02/05/06 04:49 PM (128.210.50.123)
|
|
|
Anti IDF 101
There is an anti inf mortar shell which explodes above the ground. To measure its distance to the ground and to determine when to explode it uses waves of a certain frequency. The waves get reflected from the ground differently at different heights... You get the idea.
After the wall was coming down the NATO discovered that the East German Nationale Volks Armee (NVA) had devices which emited frequencies which made the mortar round "believe" it reached the proper height. This way these shells would explode in the middle of their trajectory and do no harm.
Thats the only countermeasure against Arti or Mortars rounds I know of so far. And its only against a certain type of ammo which is not extensively used anyways.
ps:
If you come up with an MG against IDF/Arti rounds I will come up with an MG which shoots down bulets of another MG.
Edited by wixer (02/05/06 04:50 PM)
|
SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125046 - 02/05/06 05:00 PM (69.153.2.47)
|
|
|
Yes, wixer, but this is over 1000 years into the future. MGs can do stuff like that, as long as we say they can because it's purely fiction.
Also, in Battletech, there is no standard machine gun calibur or rate of fire. It depends on the manufacturer of that machine gun.
As a way to fight King IDF, I like this a lot.
--------------------
Are you a newbie that needs help and wants some extra cash? Sign on using the promo code "me want candy" I will help you learn the game, and you'll start with lots of extra nevcash.
|
TheSpork
Corporal
Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 67
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125049 - 02/05/06 07:00 PM (70.237.232.88)
|
|
|
Quote:
If you come up with an MG against IDF/Arti rounds I will come up with an MG which shoots down bulets of another MG.
And if you come up with a game that involves Battle Mechs and reality, I'll consider giving you......a swift kick in the ass, maybe.
Welcome to the world of FICTIONAL online gaming, genius.
But wait.....it must all relate to real life and BattleTech somehow, otherwise its JUST NOT POSSIBLE!!!!
Considering NONE of this is posible atm (and if we get real technical and show it is, I will truly pretend to care) in real life, does it REALY matter if shooting IDF from the air with a MG is possible? No. It doesnt. Now we will all pretend we care whether this would truly equate to a Real Life application and move on, because its a GAME, where strange shit like this is possible, because its make believe, n00b.
--------------------
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all pretty much stink -------
Anonymous
"We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-H.L. Mencken
|
Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125050 - 02/05/06 07:05 PM (62.254.128.6)
|
|
|
Ok leave real world physics at the door on this 1 from now on. Seriously, this is a game, we want it to be fun if this = more fun i'm all for it. People will use mechs again and not just IDF. MG mechs are cheap, and if the system doesnt rely on gunnery skill people can buy cheap assed mechs and counter attackers artillery too you know, most lights carry MGs. Also being able to use the range of the MG means that tight formations may occur to get best coverage, of course if you have direct fire units backin ur IDF, ie a rounded defence then the enemy mechs risk ammo booms in their ranks. Catch 22 if you know how to defend for the attacker. As you do more damage and they dump MGs, so more shots get through to damage the assault force.
|
Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Malachi]
#125060 - 02/06/06 05:10 AM (172.170.44.196)
|
|
|
Ya this discussion is ridiculous about whether or not it's possible in real life. As was pointed out earlier, almost nothing about BT or Nev is possible in rl. For instance, soldiers transferring from 1 M1-A1 to another don't suddenly become worse gunners or drivers. And nowhere is it in the Constitution that when New York, California, Florida, and Texas all reach a certain population, that the US has to either merge them into 1 state because it's not fair to have 4 states so big, or we have to turn them in to God for some DP and watch all those people just vanish. And when everyone makes rules, and countries like Iran and North Korea break them by trying to obtain nuclear warheads, we don't magically go into their bank account and remove 10 billion dollars for cheating, or nuke their biggest cities. We also don't nuke Los Angeles because the mayor had a 5 story building made. So all of you who are whining that it shouldn't be allowed because gosh darn it, it's just not possible in rl, wake the fuck up, pull your heads out of your asses, and realize that there is a seperation between rl and nev. IDF needs to be gone, or at the very least, neutered somehow. A tower having 1 MG on it to have a chance to knock down an incoming round is great. We could also get a couple tanks designed for killing IDF rounds, but to keep everyone and their mother from making them, have them require an uber target comp like the mkiii which so far serves no purpose, but can be researched.
--------------------
It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
|
sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Gunner]
#125067 - 02/06/06 07:39 AM (139.174.165.124)
|
|
|
battletech and neveron being fictional doesn't mean we must not discuss it in terms of realitly. we can also discuss it in terms of Battletechs physics. (don't forget computer and kybernetics are very very simple and low tech in battletech. (just one word: magnetic core memory! no guided missiles))
the discussion if it is necessary for the game of not was already finished, by pimp:
Quote:
the problem i see is that this just continues the trend of putting in more stuff to fix more stuff thats already known to be borked. The end results will end up being even more borked then current. [...] Sounds like alot of work to fix a broken game mechanic.
the only real solution to fix all problems caused by IDF borking neveron is to remove IDF guns and reduce tower ranges. maybe introduce a short ranged idf weapon against demos in holes. (very popular defense in the pre sniper aera.
|
SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125068 - 02/06/06 07:59 AM (130.82.111.145)
|
|
|
Quote:
Anti IDF 101
There is an anti inf mortar shell which explodes above the ground. To measure its distance to the ground and to determine when to explode it uses waves of a certain frequency. The waves get reflected from the ground differently at different heights... You get the idea.
After the wall was coming down the NATO discovered that the East German Nationale Volks Armee (NVA) had devices which emited frequencies which made the mortar round "believe" it reached the proper height. This way these shells would explode in the middle of their trajectory and do no harm.
Thats the only countermeasure against Arti or Mortars rounds I know of so far. And its only against a certain type of ammo which is not extensively used anyways.
ps:
If you come up with an MG against IDF/Arti rounds I will come up with an MG which shoots down bulets of another MG.
I am artillery gunner in the army
we actually still shoot timed shells for training but we do have proximity fuses. However most ammunition would be cluster rounds anway which are set to release their submunition a lot above the target.
|
wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SubZero]
#125072 - 02/06/06 09:35 AM (128.210.50.123)
|
|
|
Everything in NEV is theoretical possible. Lasers, Fusion reactors and so on could actually exist or already do exist in on form or another.
But shooting down a projectile using other projectiles? The chances are close to 0. It would be even more likely to shoot down a plane with IDF which happened only once You can shoot down missiles if you are lucky and this is already included in the BTU!! If you wanna add some magical powers to weapons which are not even included in the books go to warcraft my friends.
The use of wide fanned out non! pulse lasers would be more realistic. But Heck why does it have to be an MG? Did the thread starter buy to many of these wimpy mechs and wants to increase their value now?
And that the caliber of an MG and other stuff is determined by the producer? cough cough
There are certain specifications which make an MG per defintion an MG and a canon a canon. If one producer decides to make a 20mm MG its not an MG. Its a canon then.
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125082 - 02/06/06 01:10 PM (129.130.43.93)
|
|
|
Quote:
But Heck why does it have to be an MG?
Simply for the fact MGs are one of the most worthless/underused weapons in neveron. We could also expand it to small lasers if you liked, another highly under used weapon. This is about balance, not realisim.
Quote:
Did the thread starter buy to many of these wimpy mechs and wants to increase their value now?
Actually knowing the thread starter, he normally uses an extremely well built LW force that probably has very few mechs with MGs. (Wasted tonnage and risky chances of ammo explosions.) His mechs are pimped for LW using the best variants of the best mechs. You can probably count the machine guns in his empire on one hand. The majority of my empires are the same. I think I have a very old sentimental TDR that has 2 MGs and thats all in my main LW emp, and it runs with dumped MG ammo anyway. I also have a Warhammer-K with MGs thats going to be swapped out with a Warhammer-D soon as I get the extra cash. (Gonna have to stay under level 7 now, thanks Randy) So using that as his reason why anyone would be for this is more about slinging mud then improving a game. Personally if you want to go that route, I think some of you people who are opposed to this are simply IDF whores and like the fact you can build a war empire with practically no mechs and can LW without needing any skill what so ever.
Quote:
But shooting down a projectile using other projectiles? The chances are close to 0.
So you are telling me that this is not Theoretically possible? Using a sensor system (radar or laser) to detect and calculate the incoming trajectory. (Like our modern day fire finder radar?) A windage sensor to help correct for air currents. (Like our modern M1 battletanks) A TYPE of machine gun that fire at a very high rate of fire in a defined pattern and velocity. (Oh like maybe an advanced weapon that uses caseless ammunition in a rotating bolt? Who says a MG SYSTEM in neveron cannot be defined as multiple smaller weapons stacked into a single one?) A servo control motor that rapidly directs the weapon to fire in the indicated direction. A computer to take the incoming projectile trajectory and the MG information match them up and calculate where the weapon would need to be aimed for the bullets to meet the shell at the same instant. We have all this today, its just a matter of taking all thier pieces and improving them in accuracy.
BTW Show me an actual operational Fusion reactor that produces more energy then it takes to run.
(Kinda like BillyBob in the back yard shooting Clay Pigeons with his shotgun. Just the pigeons travel a little faster, his eyes are the sensor system, shotgun is instead a high RoF weapon and billybobs brain is a computer. Just we don't have the annoying tobacco spitting.)
If we require an upgrade, so be it. I'd pay some extra cash to upgrade my MGs. But thats okay too if people would rather have a lop sided game and IDF is NOT going away, maint will go up on them soon and ammo will require more resources but they'll still be here.
|
sk7
Corporal
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 86
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125083 - 02/06/06 01:11 PM (68.205.218.34)
|
|
|
I'm with gunner on this one. For all the ppl whining about mechs being useless due to IDF, this would finally be a small step in the right direction. And Malchi brings up a good point about how it would be balanced. I would add to that that odds of success should be influenced by where it's going to hit. It would be much easier to hit a projectile heading straight at you than one 3 hexes to the right. I also believe that there should be a limited amount of vehicles capable of doing this. Maybe even towers, but the computers required to give it a decent chance would severely limit what else it could do.
And stop whining about realism. It's possible, if difficult. And why bother trying to make sense of the tech level?
Wixer, the reason he suggested using MG's is because they are currently all but useless.
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sk7]
#125084 - 02/06/06 01:16 PM (129.130.43.93)
|
|
|
Yeah thats why I proposed that only mechs could do this (or be upgraded to do this) and that vehicles as well as towers could not. But possibly a new vehicle design or variant could be dedicated to this, as long as balance is considered.
I also mentioned the to hit idea where it would be easier to shoot down fire directed at the mech as opposed to covering a nearby unit.
I'm just glad a few people are thinking straight here.
|
Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#125089 - 02/06/06 02:07 PM (84.24.165.226)
|
|
|
Well, if you need area defences as well: Up to d6 defensive shots. In same hex gunnery+0, adjecant hexes +5, 2 far away +10.
I would suggest going with the upgrade option, call it Mk IX, and requireing it's own special ammo. (1/10 ammo capacity, due to increased rof)
--------------------
Rather to blow up, then.
|
SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Toontje]
#125107 - 02/06/06 03:50 PM (69.153.2.47)
|
|
|
Actually, I believe there is a class of U.S. naval ships that does shoot down incoming rockets. Though missiles are not technically projectiles, they are close enough. 1000 years into the future, it may well be possible to shoot down a supersonic artillery round (though I doubt IDF are supersonic because of the relatively small distances they are required to travel).
Why are we even arguing about realism in a game that features 80-ton walking tanks? A battlemech is more unrealistic than an anti-artillery system, so there is no reason not to have anti-IDF projectile systems.
--------------------
Are you a newbie that needs help and wants some extra cash? Sign on using the promo code "me want candy" I will help you learn the game, and you'll start with lots of extra nevcash.
|
wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125109 - 02/06/06 05:21 PM (128.210.50.123)
|
|
|
The US ships use fast firing canons to shoot down missiles. So do German ships and probably everybody else. An MG would do nothing. Specially a smart missile which would just adjust and continue. The canon actually destroys the missile. Setting of the warhead shouldnt happen normaly. An MG wouldnt be able to destroy the missile. If you are extrem lucky 3-4 bullets hit the missile. Obviously a small caliber wouldnt do a thing. Would have to be more like a 20mm beauty. Just check the "vulcan" http://www.bragg.army.mil/18abn/images/vulcan.jpg
Ok Ok lets assume we have a fancy MG which can be directly controled by a fancy fast targeting computer and has uranium bullets which allow it to rip an IDF apart. yeah then its possible Sorry I just wasnt able to imagine this in the morning. Dont know what happend to me. But now Im healed and back in the future.
Just one question. There is a reasonable chance of an MG hitting a small and fast moving steel plated IDF projectile. Why isnt an AC10 able to hit right into a barrel of a Gauscanon or similar stunts? If a shitty MG gets such fancy targeting abilities every superior weapon should be able to hit extrem slow moving mechs wherever one would like.
MG is worthless? So its justified to give it a new use?
AR is even more useless. Why not start there
MGs are dang cheap giving them anti IDF properties isnt realistic. If one really has to do it I like the upgrade idea.
FYI:
Thats what is commonly thought about the future of projectiles as anti Aircraft weapons
"http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/anti-aircraft_warfare
Future developments
If current trends continue, missiles will replace gun systems completely in "first line" service. Guns are being increasingly pushed into specialist roles, such as the US Phalanx CIWS (Phalanx CIWS: the phalanx ciws (close-in weapon system, pronounced see-whizz) is an anti-missile...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) which uses a 20 mm M61 Vulcan (M61 Vulcan: the 20mm m61 vulcan is a hydraulically driven, six-barreled, air-cooled, electrically...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) gun firing at over 4,500 rounds per minute for last ditch anti-missile and anti-aircraft fighting. Even this formerly first-rate weapon is currently being replaced by a new missile system, the Rolling Airframe Missile (Rolling Airframe Missile: more facts about this subject) , which is smaller, faster, and allows for mid-flight course correction (guidance) to ensure a hit.
Upsetting this development to all-missile systems is the current move to stealth (stealth: Avoiding detection by moving carefully) -based aircraft. Long range missiles depend on long-range detection in order to provide significant lead. Stealth designs cut detection ranges so much that the aircraft is often never even seen, and when it is, often too late for an intecept. Systems for detection and tracking of stealthy aircraft are a major problem for anti-aircraft development.
Another potential weapon system for anti-aircraft use is the laser (laser: An acronym for light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation; an optical device that produces an intense monochromatic beam of coherent light) . Although originally intended to be used in this role since the late 1960s, the most modern laser systems are currently reaching what could be considered "experimental usefulness". In particular the HEL (HEL: (religion) the world of the dead) can be used in the anti-aircraft and anti-missile role. If current developments continue, it is reasonable to suggest that lasers will play a major role in air defense starting in the next 10 years.
Edited by wixer (02/06/06 05:23 PM)
|
ReLoad
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/04/03
Posts: 359
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125112 - 02/06/06 06:58 PM (203.34.63.1)
|
|
|
Twacs, Twacs and more Twacs, want the perfect anti IDF veh? here it is already made for you
ReLoad
|
tranzoandris
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 406
Loc: Wherever. Whoever. Whatever.
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125167 - 02/07/06 05:03 PM (68.155.121.20)
|
|
|
Quote:
An MG wouldnt be able to destroy the missile. If you are extrem lucky 3-4 bullets hit the missile. Obviously a small caliber wouldnt do a thing.
Good point. Howsabout we make an autocannon have the abillity? They are large and fast shot bullets. They could probably pierce the missile. And it would also make a few underappreciated vehicles get a little more attention, such as the TWAC and PRT
--------------------
"The lightning is a lone warrior. It strikes down all without care of what it hits. Just think what a controled army of lightning could do!"
-Undiscovered Journal of Konda in Kamigawa
Try the promo code "Swift is the wind"!
|
The_Doctor
Newbie
Reged: 02/06/06
Posts: 10
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#125168 - 02/07/06 05:13 PM (68.181.220.84)
|
|
|
'jesus crap' look, most mechs can bearly hit a MECH consitantly....if I had a system to automatically shoot down 3" targets moving at hundreds of miles an hour, I'd recalibrate the damned thing to shoot at 30 METER targets moving 10s of miles an hour.....
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#125173 - 02/07/06 06:06 PM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
I'll kill you if that really happens. :P
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125176 - 02/07/06 06:30 PM (69.153.2.47)
|
|
|
A projectile's or rocket's trajectory is predictable, but a mech is human-piloted, making it inherently unpredictable. That is why a computer system would be used to shoot down incoming IDF rounds but not an enemy mech. Shooting down the IDF round would almost be like shooting a motionless target for a computer because it can calculate when the projectile will be at a specific location. The actions of a human-controlled mech can be more easily predicted by another human than by a computer. It's a pretty simple concept, in my opinion.
--------------------
Are you a newbie that needs help and wants some extra cash? Sign on using the promo code "me want candy" I will help you learn the game, and you'll start with lots of extra nevcash.
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125177 - 02/07/06 06:40 PM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
that's why i said an upgrade to the MG is better. And that upgraded MG must not be fired in order to use its defensive properties.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125178 - 02/07/06 06:46 PM (24.32.87.123)
|
|
|
Quote:
And that upgraded MG must not be fired in order to use its defensive properties.
Aye, that was in the original concept.
CaB
|
wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#125179 - 02/07/06 09:34 PM (128.211.252.141)
|
|
|
it is easier to hit a 20 meter tall 60mph movin mech than a 300km/h moving projectile which is 50cm long and quite slim.
If a mech moves 60mph its easy to predict where it will be a split second later. Even Human controled battlemonsters are heavy and subject to physics. They cant make sudden move within a fracture of a second. Yeah bullets are this fast and would hit this huge mech before one even can say unpredictable. Even the cockpit is huge compared to an idf projectile.
|
Toscotto
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 530
Loc: Tacoma WA
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125180 - 02/07/06 10:18 PM (209.152.87.175)
|
|
|
So I think everyone aggrees that there should be a form of active defense for IDF. right?
It is just the fluff that is in question. Whether it is a MG, Srm, AMS, or a Sonic Belch from Hades that does the job.
--------------------
The question is not how far, the question is do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as needed?
|
wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Toscotto]
#125183 - 02/07/06 11:01 PM (128.211.252.141)
|
|
|
how about a new unit which does the job? I like new units and there have been some supposed to come last year already. these units should have hell of a sensor, some nice targetting computer and some weapon of a sort. maybe some special mg or an ac or laser. missiles would be neat too they could log on the projectile and follow it. only problem I see, one missile costs more then a cheap idf projectile...
|
TheSpork
Corporal
Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 67
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125189 - 02/08/06 01:38 AM (70.237.232.88)
|
|
|
How about we not add more shit, and just use what we have, or fix it?
--------------------
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all pretty much stink -------
Anonymous
"We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-H.L. Mencken
|
sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: TheSpork]
#125199 - 02/08/06 06:22 AM (139.174.165.124)
|
|
|
i remember a thread named KIS principle
Keep It Simple.
can you imagine how much work it would be to implement a unit that's protection others from fire directed at them? right now at to hit rolls only the firing unit, receiving unit and terrain are considered. with this change you would need to also check all hexes within a distance of 3 for MG mechs, check if those mechs fired and apply their chance to shoot down the IDF round.
and all this work for a crutch to fix some of the worst problems caused by a patch for a patch for a major imbalance of the game.
(a historic overview: rhinos and nemesis got to much range, 2x and 3x range towers got introduced, ranged towers became almost invincible, ripostes with idf5 came to kill em, people used idf5 on ranged towers, next step was snipers.)
|
Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#125201 - 02/08/06 07:12 AM (62.254.128.6)
|
|
|
Possible solution: Limit on a case by case basis what weapons can be mounted on double range towers and remove triple range towers. For example, AC-5 would be ok, PPC would not be. Large laser would be ok as well as it only out ranges Rhino/nem by 5 hexes but can still fight them effectively. AC-2 would be ok too as it is relatively light damage. all IDF would only be single range, you wana engage snipers on edge of range, use IDF-2s. These are just examples of changes and suggestions, this isn't concrete at all. Any ideas on LRMs? The big ones do a lot of damage but in small clusters so possibly limit to LRM-10?
|
sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Malachi]
#125202 - 02/08/06 08:03 AM (139.174.165.124)
|
|
|
most people use multiple lrm5 mk2 instead of larger lrm launchers on towers. they have a better damage/weight ratio.
i think increasing the range of towers only by a small amount, 2 hex or 4 hex would be a solution. then drop idf as it is now, but introduce indirect fire capabilty to a short ranged weapon or introduce a short ranged weapon. there's still a need to prevent the ac20 hole lurkers from being the uber defense.
indirect fire lrm at half range, or srms (they're hardly usefull right now) reduced number of missiles hit, mech has to stand for indirect fire.
or make MG indirect fire, just rename them into automatic grenade throwers and reduce ammo by 75%. alternatively replace them on all or some mechs.
|
sk7
Corporal
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 86
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#125208 - 02/08/06 10:01 AM (68.205.218.34)
|
|
|
I have my own ideas when it comes to towers, but if we're going to be talking about them it should be in a new thread. This thread is getting too long to go completely off topic.
|
SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sk7]
#125223 - 02/08/06 05:13 PM (69.153.2.47)
|
|
|
Wixer, a person still has to put the sights on enemy and pull the trigger. What you describe is a Targetting Computer, which we already have. In the case of this system, a machine is doing the aiming and firing.
I suggest that these anti-IDF systems shoot down both allied and enemy IDF so that they don't just become a part of IDF warfare. If they just shot down enemy IDF, people would just add anti-IDF mechs to their Sniper battalions and continue as usual, except warfare would be even slower.
Also, an anti-IDF vehicle design would also be cool, to make anti-IDF more easily accessable.
--------------------
Are you a newbie that needs help and wants some extra cash? Sign on using the promo code "me want candy" I will help you learn the game, and you'll start with lots of extra nevcash.
|
tranzoandris
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 406
Loc: Wherever. Whoever. Whatever.
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125224 - 02/08/06 05:29 PM (68.155.120.251)
|
|
|
Quote:
that's why i said an upgrade to the MG is better. And that upgraded MG must not be fired in order to use its defensive properties.
Agreed. So we are talking only Machine Gun MK III? Makes sense. I support the idea wholeheartedly.
--------------------
"The lightning is a lone warrior. It strikes down all without care of what it hits. Just think what a controled army of lightning could do!"
-Undiscovered Journal of Konda in Kamigawa
Try the promo code "Swift is the wind"!
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125229 - 02/08/06 07:42 PM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
Quote:
I suggest that these anti-IDF systems shoot down both allied and enemy IDF so that they don't just become a part of IDF warfare. If they just shot down enemy IDF, people would just add anti-IDF mechs to their Sniper battalions and continue as usual, except warfare would be even slower.
Erm what the heck...
Why would anyone want to shoot down their own firing (unless it's potential Friendly fire)? :P
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125232 - 02/08/06 09:01 PM (69.153.2.47)
|
|
|
That's mainly a balance issue, but I can give you a realistic explanation.
The system's computer detects any projectiles and shoots them down. It cannot tell the difference between a friendly artillery shell and an enemy one.
If it only shot down enemy artillery, all it would do is further bog down IDF warfare because it would take longer to get the same amount of killing done with some of the shells being shot down.
--------------------
Are you a newbie that needs help and wants some extra cash? Sign on using the promo code "me want candy" I will help you learn the game, and you'll start with lots of extra nevcash.
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125238 - 02/09/06 02:12 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
werd.... =|
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125244 - 02/09/06 04:03 AM (139.174.165.124)
|
|
|
well, if your artillery is shooting at your own forces, you can consider the shell as not friendly. if the artillery is not firing at your own forces, there's no need or opportunity to shoot down the shell anyways.
|
SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#125287 - 02/09/06 03:25 PM (69.153.2.47)
|
|
|
Quote:
well, if your artillery is shooting at your own forces, you can consider the shell as not friendly. if the artillery is not firing at your own forces, there's no need or opportunity to shoot down the shell anyways.
And we can further bog down warfare from where it already is.
--------------------
Are you a newbie that needs help and wants some extra cash? Sign on using the promo code "me want candy" I will help you learn the game, and you'll start with lots of extra nevcash.
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
