Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: mumbles]
#124953 - 02/03/06 11:08 AM (129.130.43.40)
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sdog and mumbles
Yes you are both absolutely correct.
Because of this we should now remove everything from the game that we cannot quantify in modern day terms and technology. Forget any fun factors invovled.
Quote:
Quit making everything a physics problem compared to modern day technology or expecting it to be 100% like battletech. This (Neveron) isn't 2006 and it isn't battletech.
Welcome to a GAME set over a millenium from where we are today, so what were we doing 1248 years ago?
I can handle people saying, "it's not needed", "it'll upset balance", or even pimp's "wrong way to fix this shit" attitude. But cmon, just because you can't wrap your mind around this idea for a game 'based' on battletech doesn't mean its not possible. Also welcome to 3254, not 3050...
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Octurion
Private
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 37
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124956 - 02/03/06 02:06 PM (192.149.109.218)
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lol, i think some ppl are just enjoying a good debate, not trying to state this shouldnt be added because it cant be done in real life. It hunman nature to go off on tangents sometimes :-P .
This would really help to balances things I htink and make the game more fun which is what really is important.
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CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: mumbles]
#124957 - 02/03/06 03:33 PM (24.32.87.123)
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I based my estimates on a MG *cluster* of at least 4, 20mm guns. These have a cyclic rate of 9600 rpm today. I'm fairly certain we can improve on that given 1000 years to work on it.
CaB
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#124965 - 02/04/06 12:43 AM (71.100.240.191)
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have you guys heard of the x-15 asslt rifle fires a round that you can set to explode in side a room for a frag effect this is today this is supposed to replace the m16 in around 2009-2010 face it cbt and nev are in fantasy land nothing makes any sense in either system
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: cbtgod]
#124966 - 02/04/06 12:47 AM (80.218.224.18)
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CBT MGs are 12.7mm MGs
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SubZero]
#124970 - 02/04/06 02:43 AM (202.156.6.52)
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And there's a reason why I suggested making this a upgrade to MG-armed mechs.
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Urbies are good.
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tranzoandris
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 406
Loc: Wherever. Whoever. Whatever.
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#124975 - 02/04/06 08:42 AM (65.0.125.85)
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This would, however, pump up the cost of units such as the machine gun weilding spider and other fast small dammage mechs. I think this will just end up leading to an overall increase of prices on the mech market. Lower levels will have to end up using purely vehicles. I say leave it as it is. At least until I get to lv10. 
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"The lightning is a lone warrior. It strikes down all without care of what it hits. Just think what a controled army of lightning could do!"
-Undiscovered Journal of Konda in Kamigawa
Try the promo code "Swift is the wind"!
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#124980 - 02/04/06 01:51 PM (84.24.165.226)
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I think it's a decent solution. Make it a GS roll to hit an incoming round, with the margin of succes the max number of rounds that can be swatted that round.
Would protect mechs a bit, without invulnerability.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Aunduril
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/21/05
Posts: 386
Loc: In my Whammy
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Toontje]
#124986 - 02/04/06 07:10 PM (209.86.37.10)
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Has anyone considered what would happen if ppl just guarded their snipers with Anti-idf mechs? I think it would end up favoring IDF and not nerfing it much. especially if the mech can only shoot at idf rounds within the mg range.
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"What we do in life echos into eternity. " - Maximus - The Gladiator.
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Aunduril]
#124987 - 02/04/06 07:15 PM (202.156.6.52)
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hmmm aunduril raised up a very good point.
So if mechs armed with MG can protect only itself...
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Urbies are good.
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CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Aunduril]
#124990 - 02/04/06 08:33 PM (24.32.87.123)
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That would be the point Aunduril. So we can crack cities that have 30+ IDF towers. Otherwise you are forced to run them out of ammo and/or fatigue the city to hell and back.
This is not something I am suggesting to help the infra farmers more secure behing their towers.
CaB
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Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Aunduril]
#124996 - 02/04/06 11:31 PM (68.102.220.141)
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That is a very good point.
The most MGs on a mech are 2 I believe. That means each mech at most can have a chance to shoot down 1 snipers worth of firing.
So yeah people would guard snipers with IDF mechs. Means as a generalization you'd need 1 mech with 2 MGs per sniper you are trying to stop from hitting you but the more mechs you have the less IDF you have.
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#125001 - 02/05/06 02:43 AM (84.24.165.226)
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I would advise against using it as area defence, but only the defendant mech benefiting.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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tranzoandris
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 406
Loc: Wherever. Whoever. Whatever.
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125033 - 02/05/06 12:45 PM (65.0.125.85)
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Protecting only itself would probably make it better. There is still the whole fact that mechs with MGs will pop up in price. Would this also gaurd against City Artillery IDF fire? That would make the abillity a little overpowered also...
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"The lightning is a lone warrior. It strikes down all without care of what it hits. Just think what a controled army of lightning could do!"
-Undiscovered Journal of Konda in Kamigawa
Try the promo code "Swift is the wind"!
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#125034 - 02/05/06 02:13 PM (84.24.165.226)
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City arty is idf-5 after all..
Ammo, while good for mg's, is not eternal..
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Rather to blow up, then.
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CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#125040 - 02/05/06 04:05 PM (24.32.87.123)
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How is the ability to shoot down something fired at you when you cannot shoot at the firing unit overpowered? City artillery is pretty dumb as it is. Sounds like more: "I wanna sit in my cities with IDF towers so you can't attack me" BS.... An active defense not only makes sense, but it is fair.
Also, right now mechs with MG are avoided like the plague, due to wasted tonnage and possibilty of ammo explosion. If a game change makes them useful, they *should* rise in price and that is a good thing. It would mean that the all energy weapon mechs that are favored on the battlefield will lose an edge. It forces players to round out their mech forces more. There are several Warhammer and Battlemaster variants that would become much more useful than they are now. CPLT-K2 as well. I'm sure there are many more.
In a wargame those that understand the concept of combined arms should do well. That means assembling a superior force from differnt units. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This leaves room for experimentation and tweaking.
Neveron currently does not have much in the way of combined arms. It has a single winning formula: IDF. Adding an active defense against artillery levels the playing field for everyone. Anyone who says different does *not* want that field leveled. They want to maintain the status quo of hiding in cities, afraid to fight a foe on an honorable field of battle. (In other words: pussies)
CaB
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wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#125042 - 02/05/06 04:19 PM (128.210.50.123)
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Oh My God,
firing at a projectile with a MG??? Show me something like this in real life. And dont come me with the rotating canons which spit out 6000 rounds a minute and are radar guided. Even they can not hit another projectile. They might be able to hit a missile if you are lucky but thats it.
1st its for sure not an MG
2nd it would never ever work against IDF or other Arti shells, no matter what ueber system you come up this.
So from a real life perspective the idea is friggin Noob.
But game wise I am the Noob so you experts decide 
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wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125045 - 02/05/06 04:49 PM (128.210.50.123)
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Anti IDF 101
There is an anti inf mortar shell which explodes above the ground. To measure its distance to the ground and to determine when to explode it uses waves of a certain frequency. The waves get reflected from the ground differently at different heights... You get the idea.
After the wall was coming down the NATO discovered that the East German Nationale Volks Armee (NVA) had devices which emited frequencies which made the mortar round "believe" it reached the proper height. This way these shells would explode in the middle of their trajectory and do no harm.
Thats the only countermeasure against Arti or Mortars rounds I know of so far. And its only against a certain type of ammo which is not extensively used anyways.
ps:
If you come up with an MG against IDF/Arti rounds I will come up with an MG which shoots down bulets of another MG.
Edited by wixer (02/05/06 04:50 PM)
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SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125046 - 02/05/06 05:00 PM (69.153.2.47)
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Yes, wixer, but this is over 1000 years into the future. MGs can do stuff like that, as long as we say they can because it's purely fiction.
Also, in Battletech, there is no standard machine gun calibur or rate of fire. It depends on the manufacturer of that machine gun.
As a way to fight King IDF, I like this a lot.
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Are you a newbie that needs help and wants some extra cash? Sign on using the promo code "me want candy" I will help you learn the game, and you'll start with lots of extra nevcash.
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TheSpork
Corporal
Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 67
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125049 - 02/05/06 07:00 PM (70.237.232.88)
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Quote:
If you come up with an MG against IDF/Arti rounds I will come up with an MG which shoots down bulets of another MG.
And if you come up with a game that involves Battle Mechs and reality, I'll consider giving you......a swift kick in the ass, maybe.
Welcome to the world of FICTIONAL online gaming, genius.
But wait.....it must all relate to real life and BattleTech somehow, otherwise its JUST NOT POSSIBLE!!!!
Considering NONE of this is posible atm (and if we get real technical and show it is, I will truly pretend to care) in real life, does it REALY matter if shooting IDF from the air with a MG is possible? No. It doesnt. Now we will all pretend we care whether this would truly equate to a Real Life application and move on, because its a GAME, where strange shit like this is possible, because its make believe, n00b.
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Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all pretty much stink -------
Anonymous
"We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-H.L. Mencken
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Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125050 - 02/05/06 07:05 PM (62.254.128.6)
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Ok leave real world physics at the door on this 1 from now on. Seriously, this is a game, we want it to be fun if this = more fun i'm all for it. People will use mechs again and not just IDF. MG mechs are cheap, and if the system doesnt rely on gunnery skill people can buy cheap assed mechs and counter attackers artillery too you know, most lights carry MGs. Also being able to use the range of the MG means that tight formations may occur to get best coverage, of course if you have direct fire units backin ur IDF, ie a rounded defence then the enemy mechs risk ammo booms in their ranks. Catch 22 if you know how to defend for the attacker. As you do more damage and they dump MGs, so more shots get through to damage the assault force.
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Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Malachi]
#125060 - 02/06/06 05:10 AM (172.170.44.196)
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Ya this discussion is ridiculous about whether or not it's possible in real life. As was pointed out earlier, almost nothing about BT or Nev is possible in rl. For instance, soldiers transferring from 1 M1-A1 to another don't suddenly become worse gunners or drivers. And nowhere is it in the Constitution that when New York, California, Florida, and Texas all reach a certain population, that the US has to either merge them into 1 state because it's not fair to have 4 states so big, or we have to turn them in to God for some DP and watch all those people just vanish. And when everyone makes rules, and countries like Iran and North Korea break them by trying to obtain nuclear warheads, we don't magically go into their bank account and remove 10 billion dollars for cheating, or nuke their biggest cities. We also don't nuke Los Angeles because the mayor had a 5 story building made. So all of you who are whining that it shouldn't be allowed because gosh darn it, it's just not possible in rl, wake the fuck up, pull your heads out of your asses, and realize that there is a seperation between rl and nev. IDF needs to be gone, or at the very least, neutered somehow. A tower having 1 MG on it to have a chance to knock down an incoming round is great. We could also get a couple tanks designed for killing IDF rounds, but to keep everyone and their mother from making them, have them require an uber target comp like the mkiii which so far serves no purpose, but can be researched.
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Gunner]
#125067 - 02/06/06 07:39 AM (139.174.165.124)
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battletech and neveron being fictional doesn't mean we must not discuss it in terms of realitly. we can also discuss it in terms of Battletechs physics. (don't forget computer and kybernetics are very very simple and low tech in battletech. (just one word: magnetic core memory! no guided missiles))
the discussion if it is necessary for the game of not was already finished, by pimp:
Quote:
the problem i see is that this just continues the trend of putting in more stuff to fix more stuff thats already known to be borked. The end results will end up being even more borked then current. [...] Sounds like alot of work to fix a broken game mechanic.
the only real solution to fix all problems caused by IDF borking neveron is to remove IDF guns and reduce tower ranges. maybe introduce a short ranged idf weapon against demos in holes. (very popular defense in the pre sniper aera.
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SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125068 - 02/06/06 07:59 AM (130.82.111.145)
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Quote:
Anti IDF 101
There is an anti inf mortar shell which explodes above the ground. To measure its distance to the ground and to determine when to explode it uses waves of a certain frequency. The waves get reflected from the ground differently at different heights... You get the idea.
After the wall was coming down the NATO discovered that the East German Nationale Volks Armee (NVA) had devices which emited frequencies which made the mortar round "believe" it reached the proper height. This way these shells would explode in the middle of their trajectory and do no harm.
Thats the only countermeasure against Arti or Mortars rounds I know of so far. And its only against a certain type of ammo which is not extensively used anyways.
ps:
If you come up with an MG against IDF/Arti rounds I will come up with an MG which shoots down bulets of another MG.
I am artillery gunner in the army
we actually still shoot timed shells for training but we do have proximity fuses. However most ammunition would be cluster rounds anway which are set to release their submunition a lot above the target.
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wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SubZero]
#125072 - 02/06/06 09:35 AM (128.210.50.123)
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Everything in NEV is theoretical possible. Lasers, Fusion reactors and so on could actually exist or already do exist in on form or another.
But shooting down a projectile using other projectiles? The chances are close to 0. It would be even more likely to shoot down a plane with IDF which happened only once You can shoot down missiles if you are lucky and this is already included in the BTU!! If you wanna add some magical powers to weapons which are not even included in the books go to warcraft my friends.
The use of wide fanned out non! pulse lasers would be more realistic. But Heck why does it have to be an MG? Did the thread starter buy to many of these wimpy mechs and wants to increase their value now?
And that the caliber of an MG and other stuff is determined by the producer? cough cough
There are certain specifications which make an MG per defintion an MG and a canon a canon. If one producer decides to make a 20mm MG its not an MG. Its a canon then.
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Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125082 - 02/06/06 01:10 PM (129.130.43.93)
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Quote:
But Heck why does it have to be an MG?
Simply for the fact MGs are one of the most worthless/underused weapons in neveron. We could also expand it to small lasers if you liked, another highly under used weapon. This is about balance, not realisim.
Quote:
Did the thread starter buy to many of these wimpy mechs and wants to increase their value now?
Actually knowing the thread starter, he normally uses an extremely well built LW force that probably has very few mechs with MGs. (Wasted tonnage and risky chances of ammo explosions.) His mechs are pimped for LW using the best variants of the best mechs. You can probably count the machine guns in his empire on one hand. The majority of my empires are the same. I think I have a very old sentimental TDR that has 2 MGs and thats all in my main LW emp, and it runs with dumped MG ammo anyway. I also have a Warhammer-K with MGs thats going to be swapped out with a Warhammer-D soon as I get the extra cash. (Gonna have to stay under level 7 now, thanks Randy) So using that as his reason why anyone would be for this is more about slinging mud then improving a game. Personally if you want to go that route, I think some of you people who are opposed to this are simply IDF whores and like the fact you can build a war empire with practically no mechs and can LW without needing any skill what so ever.
Quote:
But shooting down a projectile using other projectiles? The chances are close to 0.
So you are telling me that this is not Theoretically possible? Using a sensor system (radar or laser) to detect and calculate the incoming trajectory. (Like our modern day fire finder radar?) A windage sensor to help correct for air currents. (Like our modern M1 battletanks) A TYPE of machine gun that fire at a very high rate of fire in a defined pattern and velocity. (Oh like maybe an advanced weapon that uses caseless ammunition in a rotating bolt? Who says a MG SYSTEM in neveron cannot be defined as multiple smaller weapons stacked into a single one?) A servo control motor that rapidly directs the weapon to fire in the indicated direction. A computer to take the incoming projectile trajectory and the MG information match them up and calculate where the weapon would need to be aimed for the bullets to meet the shell at the same instant. We have all this today, its just a matter of taking all thier pieces and improving them in accuracy.
BTW Show me an actual operational Fusion reactor that produces more energy then it takes to run.
(Kinda like BillyBob in the back yard shooting Clay Pigeons with his shotgun. Just the pigeons travel a little faster, his eyes are the sensor system, shotgun is instead a high RoF weapon and billybobs brain is a computer. Just we don't have the annoying tobacco spitting.)
If we require an upgrade, so be it. I'd pay some extra cash to upgrade my MGs. But thats okay too if people would rather have a lop sided game and IDF is NOT going away, maint will go up on them soon and ammo will require more resources but they'll still be here.
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sk7
Corporal
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 86
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125083 - 02/06/06 01:11 PM (68.205.218.34)
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I'm with gunner on this one. For all the ppl whining about mechs being useless due to IDF, this would finally be a small step in the right direction. And Malchi brings up a good point about how it would be balanced. I would add to that that odds of success should be influenced by where it's going to hit. It would be much easier to hit a projectile heading straight at you than one 3 hexes to the right. I also believe that there should be a limited amount of vehicles capable of doing this. Maybe even towers, but the computers required to give it a decent chance would severely limit what else it could do.
And stop whining about realism. It's possible, if difficult. And why bother trying to make sense of the tech level?
Wixer, the reason he suggested using MG's is because they are currently all but useless.
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Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sk7]
#125084 - 02/06/06 01:16 PM (129.130.43.93)
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Yeah thats why I proposed that only mechs could do this (or be upgraded to do this) and that vehicles as well as towers could not. But possibly a new vehicle design or variant could be dedicated to this, as long as balance is considered.
I also mentioned the to hit idea where it would be easier to shoot down fire directed at the mech as opposed to covering a nearby unit.
I'm just glad a few people are thinking straight here.
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#125089 - 02/06/06 02:07 PM (84.24.165.226)
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Well, if you need area defences as well: Up to d6 defensive shots. In same hex gunnery+0, adjecant hexes +5, 2 far away +10.
I would suggest going with the upgrade option, call it Mk IX, and requireing it's own special ammo. (1/10 ammo capacity, due to increased rof)
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Rather to blow up, then.
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SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Toontje]
#125107 - 02/06/06 03:50 PM (69.153.2.47)
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Actually, I believe there is a class of U.S. naval ships that does shoot down incoming rockets. Though missiles are not technically projectiles, they are close enough. 1000 years into the future, it may well be possible to shoot down a supersonic artillery round (though I doubt IDF are supersonic because of the relatively small distances they are required to travel).
Why are we even arguing about realism in a game that features 80-ton walking tanks? A battlemech is more unrealistic than an anti-artillery system, so there is no reason not to have anti-IDF projectile systems.
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Are you a newbie that needs help and wants some extra cash? Sign on using the promo code "me want candy" I will help you learn the game, and you'll start with lots of extra nevcash.
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