Hannibal
Recruit
Reged: 04/30/03
Posts: 140
Loc: Australia
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DP cash in value
#125713 - 02/19/06 05:23 PM (61.69.145.106)
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At the moment the value of cashing in DP is in my opinion too low.
10 million dollars can buy you a couple of medium tanks that are likely to die in short order.
I would suggest that the value be bumped up to around 50 million.
This would allow people to build their armies alot quicker and reduce the amount of units within the game. People will buy mechs more readily if they have the funds on hand, hence reducing the reliance on vehicles overall.
It would also slow down the market in DP sales between players. ATM large income empires with 10's and 100's of millions of dollars income can happily buy as many DP as they want. With no gain for the running of the game. Hence we see alot of DP only toys in the richest factions and not as many anywhere else. I am pretty sure that noone in their right mind is going to invest 85 DP for a DEST Griffin in a lvl 3 if they actually had to pay for it. But it is easy to do if a large empire buys all the DP they want and transfers it on a weekly basis.
If the "market" value rises to say 100 million it is unlikely to attract as many people to sell their DP anyway. The reason being that with the market caps in place, 250 million for 5 DP right now is better than 500 million spread out over a couple of months.
Cheers Hannibal
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sk7
Corporal
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 86
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: Hannibal]
#125722 - 02/19/06 07:52 PM (68.205.218.34)
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I've wondered why its only 10 mil myself, it should be at least $25 mil per dollar. However, given how randy wants less money in circulation, i doubt its going to happen.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: sk7]
#125807 - 02/21/06 01:46 PM (71.100.240.191)
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whats even more funny is you have to use more dp than to buy a mech exp if a mech you want is only say 51mil and it takes 7dp for the instant mech hello nev admin learn how to add?
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: cbtgod]
#125812 - 02/21/06 03:25 PM (84.24.165.226)
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51 mill, must be rather useless.
Try looking for vindicators, they are (a bit) more representative. Or catapults. Or anything else really usefull.
Also, the desired'mech may not be present on the arket at the time.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Xia
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Forgotton Palace, Xu Chang, Im...
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: Hannibal]
#125833 - 02/21/06 08:18 PM (67.9.123.225)
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Alright… let me explain…
If you increase the amount of Nev-dollars per DP there would a corresponding reaction on the markets… another words… everything would go up in value. Including and most especially mechs.
The reason there is even a market for DP is because the Admins give a bonus for large donations. NO BONUS… NO DP (BLACK)MARKET. The game would come to an abrupt, sudden, and audible stop. Those much maligned Large Empires are what keeps the Nev economy running, without their constant cash infusions, this game would truly crawl, and in terms of DP would not be worth playing… at all.
The Admins are quite capable of adding… the fact that there is a noticeable gap between Mech Admin DP Value and (Black)market Nev-dollars should make plainly clear to all that the market can stand further inflationary pressures as demand has not yet reached market threshold… another words… Mech prices will continue to go up till Nev-dollar prices equal Admin DP Value. In fact it would be better if Admin DP value went down… as that would have a reactionary force in the opposite direction of inflation… DEFLATION.
Currently there is nothing to stop this cycle short of adding an Empire Savings Fund (see my suggestion). Stop complaining or the Admins may give you what you want… and that 40M Locust… will cost 200M…
Now get back in line and stay quite. 
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I find that violence is a perfectly viable solution to most problems....
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shizzle
Private
Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 48
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: Xia]
#125851 - 02/22/06 09:22 AM (68.62.20.25)
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"another words…"
in other words, imo.
"Now get back in line and stay quite. "
quiet,imo.
"In fact it would be better if Admin DP value went down… as that would have a reactionary force in the opposite direction of inflation… DEFLATION. "
deflation occurs due to a combination of four factors...
The supply of money goes down.
The supply of other goods goes up.
Demand for money goes up.
Demand for other goods goes down.
so even if admins brought the instant dp cash value down to say 5 million, and the average empire with DP went straight to chat to sell the DP which would eventually drive down the black market cash value of DP, the admins would still have to add significantly more mechs to the market to complete a deflationary cycle.
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shizzle
Private
Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 48
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: Xia]
#125852 - 02/22/06 09:34 AM (68.62.20.25)
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Quote:
Alright… let me explain…
If you increase the amount of Nev-dollars per DP there would a corresponding reaction on the markets… another words… everything would go up in value. Including and most especially mechs.
if all you do is increase the amount of nev dollars per DP, it would drive the price of mechs down, not up, as many more empires would be able to afford them they lose some of their value so prices fall. certain specific prized mech prices may rise due to scarcity, but the general mech market price would drop.
if your intention is to make mech prices rise, withhold supply thereby increasing demand.
if your intention is to make mech prices fall, increase supply and reduce demand.
alternatively, you could make mech prices fall by significantly decreasing the cost of vehicles tanks and towers. this in turn increases the number of expendable units in the game, probably increasing the general nev war machine as people are encouraged to LW with neighbors due to decreased costs of putting an army into motion.
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GreenBeret
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 345
Loc: Nuevo Mexico
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: shizzle]
#125858 - 02/22/06 03:26 PM (129.138.37.67)
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Someone failed economics 101... (referring to shizzle)
Increasing the cash supply would not decrease the cost of goods (mechs). If more people have the money to buy mechs, the mech supply must increase to meet demand, moving the price point upwards.
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Xia
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Forgotton Palace, Xu Chang, Im...
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: shizzle]
#125861 - 02/22/06 04:47 PM (67.9.123.225)
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No matter how clear you connect the dots... nevermind.... 
*shakes head*
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I find that violence is a perfectly viable solution to most problems....
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jaggeh
Lieutenant
Reged: 07/03/02
Posts: 549
Loc: ireland dublin
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: shizzle]
#125880 - 02/23/06 07:38 AM (213.190.149.122)
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Quote:
Quote:
Alright… let me explain…
If you increase the amount of Nev-dollars per DP there would a corresponding reaction on the markets… another words… everything would go up in value. Including and most especially mechs.
if all you do is increase the amount of nev dollars per DP, it would drive the price of mechs down, not up, as many more empires would be able to afford them they lose some of their value so prices fall. certain specific prized mech prices may rise due to scarcity, but the general mech market price would drop.
if your intention is to make mech prices rise, withhold supply thereby increasing demand.
if your intention is to make mech prices fall, increase supply and reduce demand.
alternatively, you could make mech prices fall by significantly decreasing the cost of vehicles tanks and towers. this in turn increases the number of expendable units in the game, probably increasing the general nev war machine as people are encouraged to LW with neighbors due to decreased costs of putting an army into motion.
increasing the supply would not decrease the demand at all and that is where your theory falls on its face.
whats on the market now are mechs people DONT WANT. and so their prices will drop drop drop. when they get bought up the prices will climb climb climb.
Rarer mechs drop in few numbers at higher prices and are snapped up fairly quickly which keeps them rare and high priced.
for instance if a few battallions worth of assault mechs were to suddenly appear on the market and they were decent units they would be there for several hours. some of us larger players have cash funds larger than some factions just for these occasions (mine is back to about 5bn after buying a lance of imps)
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Goodbye neveron, i refuse to stand by and watch a game i love enough to play for 6
years be ruined by idiotic ideas. id rather leave and have good memories.
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shizzle
Private
Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 48
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: GreenBeret]
#125884 - 02/23/06 11:09 AM (68.62.20.25)
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Quote:
Someone failed economics 101... (referring to shizzle)
Increasing the cash supply would not decrease the cost of goods (mechs). If more people have the money to buy mechs, the mech supply must increase to meet demand, moving the price point upwards.
well you failed both in your attempt to put me down, in your attempt to analyze my statement and in your conclusion.
3 strikes bud, you're out.
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: shizzle]
#125885 - 02/23/06 11:16 AM (84.24.165.226)
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3 strikes out of 3 throws, he's at 60.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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shizzle
Private
Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 48
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: jaggeh]
#125886 - 02/23/06 11:38 AM (68.62.20.25)
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Quote:
increasing the supply would not decrease the demand at all and that is where your theory falls on its face.
whats on the market now are mechs people DONT WANT. and so their prices will drop drop drop. when they get bought up the prices will climb climb climb.
Rarer mechs drop in few numbers at higher prices and are snapped up fairly quickly which keeps them rare and high priced.
for instance if a few battallions worth of assault mechs were to suddenly appear on the market and they were decent units they would be there for several hours. some of us larger players have cash funds larger than some factions just for these occasions (mine is back to about 5bn after buying a lance of imps)
that is only partially true, plenty of level 1 and 2 and maybe even some 3's would love to have commandos or thorns or whatever, they just want a mech. if you flood the economy with cash those empires won't be very selective with the beginner level mech they purchase. if they exist entirely off of the small empire subsidy, trying to horde their cash till they can afford one then they are going to be selective, when they've saved up 40 or even 50 million bucks they will buy a mech if there is one available at that price. the tradeoff between being selective about the mech you buy and the potential to be surrendered by someone with a locust is significant at that level.
if every low level empire knew that they would be getting 15million bonus cash every rl day for the next 4 days they are going to start mentally shopping in the mech market today to see what they may be able to buy. make it 50mil a day and the difference will be one of style, where 1 person goes with a lance of the cheapest available and another person uses all 200 million to get the one biggest mech he can afford. either way it is just inflation because those bonus dollars were just extra production with no value. who knows , maybe some empires would skip the mech market entirely and load up on potatos.
the mech market as it is now, with only 1 real supplier, is a completely artificial, manipulated market.
if every level 10 or higher signed on tomorrow and got a pop up saying Congrats! you have discovered the secret of light mech technology, then it would only be a matter of days or weeks before every level 1 could afford a mech.
what is on the market now is not there just because nobody wants them, just because you have a lance of imps doesn't make a thorn useless.
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: shizzle]
#125887 - 02/23/06 12:55 PM (202.156.6.52)
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Increasing the DP cash in value won't work (except for people unaware of the DP Blackmarket). People will still sell it for 50m each.
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Urbies are good.
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shizzle
Private
Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 48
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125890 - 02/23/06 02:22 PM (68.62.20.25)
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if they increased the DP cash amount through the donate page, there would be a corresponding increase in DP value on the blackmarket. DP has a value to everyone in-game. larger empires that are capable of buying DP on the blackmarket currently are not going to give up that opportunity simply because they change the auto cash value of DP to say 50 million on the donate page.
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Celt
Sergeant
Reged: 12/14/03
Posts: 199
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: shizzle]
#125892 - 02/23/06 03:25 PM (62.254.32.17)
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True shizzle, but for low level empires( who seem to be the main supply of DP), it's hard to get money in.
Exchanging dp for an unlimited amounts of 50mil, or selling dp for 75 and being able to get 25 every nevmonth?
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shizzle
Private
Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 48
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: Celt]
#125893 - 02/23/06 04:46 PM (68.62.20.25)
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agreed, but blackmarket DP is 5 times current Donate cash value, so extrapolating from that it seems that blackmarket DP would become highly prized in that environment and the resulting price would be much higher than 75mil. if the larger empires don't want to pay it they have to donate themselves, which is something many are loathe to do.
probably the result is that many would combine cashing in their DP for the 50 mil with blackmarket DP, for cash now plus income for a few nevmonths.
no matter the outcome of this discussion, i think we all agree that caps suck.
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davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: shizzle]
#125894 - 02/23/06 04:58 PM (138.163.0.41)
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Caps most definitely DON'T suck. They are definitely annoying, but are a neccessary part of the game. Otherwise it would be way too easy for people with both large empires and small empire to create smaller empires that are nearly invincible. Have hundreds to thousands of dispersed zones each with 1 10CF building hiding their one zone with units. All of these empire having no pop (other than distraction buildings) and all BV. Having tremendous amounts of cash, so all of the units are upgraded to the max. No caps is a recipe or disaster. The small guys would never ever have a chance. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a naysayer. I would do this in a heartbeat if caps were removed, and I know plently of other who would too.
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Celt
Sergeant
Reged: 12/14/03
Posts: 199
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: davion76]
#125895 - 02/23/06 05:42 PM (62.254.32.17)
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Shizzle, if dp's value went up to 250mil, there's just no way for smaller empires to get it.
25mil general transfer + 25mil FL transfer is 50mil per 3 rl days for a lvl, selling 2 dp means he has to wait a month to get the cash?
Dont think so, especially as at 50mil per it would be a lot cheaper to buy mechs off market after donating for cash.
Honestly, I'd be happy to settle for $35-$40mil value for exchanging dp for nevcash.
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The_Doctor
Newbie
Reged: 02/06/06
Posts: 10
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: Celt]
#125897 - 02/23/06 05:51 PM (68.181.220.84)
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so...what's the problem...right now he sells 1 DP for 50 million.... and he can sell 1 DP every 3 days.... if the 'black market' value of DP was 250 million... he's still get 50 million every 3 days...but he'd only have to sell 2 DP a month, instead of 10...sounds like a good deal for the noob. imho... if randy bumped DP for nevcash up to 50 million, the black market would bump up too; dunno what that would lead too; probably 'ubernoobs' getting less of a screwed deal, since those guys are actually exchanging DP at a 1:10m rate using randy's system.
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Celt
Sergeant
Reged: 12/14/03
Posts: 199
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: The_Doctor]
#125918 - 02/23/06 09:12 PM (62.254.32.17)
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Exactly doc, so noobs actually get to use the DP, instead of selling it to lvl11-13's, who in an lvl 11's case can easily afford 13 dp a real day.
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The_Doctor
Newbie
Reged: 02/06/06
Posts: 10
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: Celt]
#125921 - 02/23/06 11:58 PM (68.181.220.84)
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Oh, you'd still have folks using the black market; I don't think 50m is as high as people would go for DP...its getting there, but I think you'd still see people buying it if it hit 75 or 100m per...be alot less of em buying it though...
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shizzle
Private
Reged: 09/16/05
Posts: 48
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: davion76]
#125944 - 02/24/06 05:36 AM (68.62.20.25)
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Quote:
Caps most definitely DON'T suck. They are definitely annoying, but are a neccessary part of the game.
ok,you disagreed with my position and then went on to explain why they do suck. lol.
i think annoying pretty much sums it up. i think the only real problem i have is that changes are made in an ad hoc fashion sort of like legislation in a third world country. oh well, it's only a game.
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Xia
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Forgotton Palace, Xu Chang, Im...
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: shizzle]
#125997 - 02/24/06 06:50 PM (67.9.123.225)
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Transfer Caps... good... discourages abuse
Increasing Admin DP value... bad... enforces rampant inflation
Market Caps... good... prevents dumping
Being a pr!ck on the forums... bad... leads to you being ignored
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I find that violence is a perfectly viable solution to most problems....
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davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: Xia]
#126001 - 02/25/06 12:47 AM (12.219.244.44)
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I don't think that increasing the Admin DP value to 15-20 mil per DP would affect the makeup of nev very much. People who DP with small empires would always still sell DP first, then use admin DP in a pinch. for larger empires it wouldn't make a hoot of difference.
As for increasing the current market value for DP, I really don't think it would. I don't see many people at all changing from selling DP to admin DP. Thus supply remanins NEARLY the same, while demand is unchanged; therefore the market price should remain the same.
Speaking about the market value of DP, i wouldn't be surprised if it increased right after the empire consolidations occurs. The consolidations means more large empires and therefor more disposable cash. With disposable cash comes the interest in spending more lavishly to get the stuff you want (eg DP stuff). With demand for DP increasing, and the supply of DP remaining nearly constant, the price for DP SHOULD increase.
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Xia
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Forgotton Palace, Xu Chang, Im...
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: davion76]
#126042 - 02/25/06 12:03 PM (67.9.123.225)
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Not too long ago the average light mech went for just about 20m on the market. While Admin DP to Nev-cash conversion was set at 5m and Blackmarket DP value was about 35-40m depending on who was buying. Then the Admins increased the DP conversion value to 10m and now… the average light mech runs 40m apiece and Blackmarket DP value runs 50-60m depending on the buyer. A coincidence? Maybe.
What should be plainly evident is that mech prices continue to rise… They have NEVER in the entire time that I have played Neveron dropped. More mechs appear to meet demand but the price NEVER drops. Adding more money to the game will not alleviate the problem just acerbate it… again why would the Admins interfere or care if prices rise when its still cheaper to buy mechs off the market using converted Blackmarket nev-cash than to actually DP for the mech? Don’t you think they’d much rather you DP for the mech directly then convert it to Nev-cash? In fact they lose money by allowing the DP market to survive. To their credit they allow the DP market to survive and have even instituted tools for its management. Good on them.
Increasing the money supply… is bad… inflates all prices… furthers the gap between DPers and non-DPers… and ultimately slows the game… because the Admins have to check growth… because DP is an unlimited resource with NO scarcity.
Yes davion… you are right, DP value will go up, along with everything else of value.
Please… please, drop this before the Admins take up the suggestion.
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I find that violence is a perfectly viable solution to most problems....
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: Xia]
#126044 - 02/25/06 01:04 PM (202.156.6.52)
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I coulda sworn DP value has always been 50m for more than a year already. 35m-40m with discounts between factionmates/friends.
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Urbies are good.
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davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
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Re: DP cash in value
[Re: MatthewAce]
#126115 - 02/27/06 11:58 PM (12.219.244.44)
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I seriously think the major reasons the mech market average price has gone up is twofold.
1) more Nmoney being generated in nev from the myriad of growing empires. The more total income, the more spent on mechs. The more money spent on mechs, the more bought. The more bought, the higher the price as per the NASI code.
2) More small mechs have been researched by large empires. Whenever a new mech is first researched, NASI no longer drops that type. Since most player emps aren't keeping the marlet filled with decent priced mechs, everyone buys the NASI dropped ones, and thereby inducing the NASI code to drop more and increase the price.
As for the admins loosing cash to DP xfer and converting DP to Nevcash for market sales, there is a simple solution. Make mechs DPed for either NOT defect, or have a significantly lower chance of defection - say 10% the normal. This will make people think sbout using DP directly for an added benefit.
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