Shai
Private
Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 47
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LW Incentives. SWar
#125679 - 02/19/06 03:22 AM (69.243.17.154)
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My apologies to anyone who has suggested similar shiz in the past.
Aside from the IDF controversy- a common thread I read is “LW is not worth it.” Most refer to a cost analysis reward vs. risk argument. When war is not profitable- you do not go to war etc.
Thinking outside of the box- brainstorming on providing LW’ers with new incentives to war may be worth the time. My example would be in Dawn of War, you fight over Strategic Points and often do not have time to fortify them or cannot build suitable fortifications due to terrain. This lends for more mobile, attacker oriented, fun war.
So what if Strategic Regions popped up on Neveron. Regions could be large or small, but would all be a grouping of zones and never a single zone. These zones for in game reasons cannot be fortified. You cannot build towers here, nor can you deploy garrison forces. A new type of LW would arise, Strategic War or Swar, which would ensure BP pilot vs. pilot, mech vs. mech, little to no AI, fun warfare.
When your Faction (not empire) controls the majority of zones in the Region the entire faction gains some small bonus. The bonus could be +research, mineral extraction, reduced military maintenance, +skill multis, good gunners, +5% commercial etc. Or perhaps you gain a unique technology that can not be researched for the duration of your majority control of the S Region. Even tiny to miniscule bonus may be worth killing for.
If done properly this will also give a new incentive for tight nit factions to stick together and coordinate attacks. And ~possibly~ even add a more "friendly" warfare for allied factions to engage in against one another, that will not involve a friend’s empire getting wiped. "WoB: Sure we love you FWLM guys, but hey we want this damn island!"
The region could be an island or a land locked region. Furthermore you could restrict certain regions in regards to attack force. Lance vs. Lance piloted warfare could be exciting. For example a small 8 zone island has free mech transportation to and from, maximum of 1 lance attack option, and gives a tiny bonus for majority control. This would mean that high level empires have a reduced advantage over low level empires. Even the little factions could fight over them. Or perhaps you could implement a restriction so that only faction less than #100 could fight over the weakest Strategic Regions. This would mean that even the little guys could have fun and get in some LW.
On the flipside a massive region with an abundance of zones and Battalion option for attack could lend to giant conflicts between multiple top factions. Without the option of placing fixed defenses, again this would all be player vs. player war. No AI. No chance of loosing stuff while you are away. This could have possible added benefits of reducing total mech population on Neveron, dwindling the giant bank accounts of certain empires, etc provided the reward is worth the risk.
I dont know jack about coding so forgive my ignorance. What restrictions are possible? The more differing restrictions from S Region to S Region the better. What if only Light Class Mechs could fight in one S Region? What if only Jump Capable mechs could fight in another? Simply restricting vehicles of any kind would force Mech vs. Mech warfare in a S Region.
We could still engage in regular LW and hit empires to dish out the pain. You can still opt for Fwar instead. But we would have other war targets to change things up. Swar (Strategic War) (or Shaitan War :P) would be fun mech vs. mech and pilot vs. pilot warfare.
To Limit Time involved you could add an amnesty Cease Fire period after a S Region is completey conquered. Thus for a short period your Faction's gain is secured. The goal would be fore short wars that you could play night to night in contrast to some LW which takes days. You login each night and spend 1 or 2 hours fighting to see how much land your faction gain/lost. In the end even if you loose your empire is not wiped out and you enjoyed the fun of mech warfare.
A top 100 style page that listed the S Regions, coords, bonus, majority ruler, etc- could help promote Factions to fight over them. As well as provide bragging rights to show who the best of the best "Top Guns" of Neveron are currently.
This is Food for Thought - and not intended to be yet another suggestion of how you should spend your time. I know the Admins have a full plate. You all kick ass no matter what the squeaky wheel says. I am amazed at all the new shiz since I have been gone.
Glad to be back,
-Shaitan
Edited by Shai (02/19/06 04:13 AM)
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Xia
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Forgotton Palace, Xu Chang, Im...
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: Shai]
#125683 - 02/19/06 07:12 AM (67.9.123.225)
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Good idea. Though i'm not big on game modifiers but you have to fight over some thing right? It be nice if we could all just fight and not have to worry about p!sting off half the planet... Cause once someone drops on an empire its on like Donkey Kong. Support it. 
Welcome back... you were gone, what, two weeks? 
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I find that violence is a perfectly viable solution to most problems....
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nes
Newbie
Reged: 09/05/05
Posts: 11
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: Xia]
#125697 - 02/19/06 11:36 AM (213.158.197.32)
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agreed, that might be a really cool feature
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Demoneyes
Newbie
Reged: 01/13/06
Posts: 5
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: nes]
#125702 - 02/19/06 01:21 PM (24.118.140.13)
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I like the idea, you could remove Fwar and replace it with this just add a penelty for factions who hold no zones or who have not killed/lost BV attempting to take/hold zones.
I think this is exactly what nev should be something you can login into with friends each and every night get some fighting in and goto bed.
Even if they dont replace regular war/fwar id still like for them to try something like this. I doubt it could hurt and possibility of bringing new life back into the game.
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sk7
Corporal
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 86
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: Demoneyes]
#125705 - 02/19/06 02:03 PM (68.205.218.34)
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Don't even bother with the penalty business demon. Whether or not randy wants more war, it's stupid to penalize people for not warring.
Just imagine if the noob faction hoarded all the research bonus ones.
Anyway, I have an addition\modification to that idea. The problem i see is that the most powerful factions may hoard all the zones. No one challenges them, and thus no more war. So what I propose is that after a zone is held for a certain amount of time, the zone changes to an unclaimed zone, units are returned to their empire, and a new unclaimed and unbuildable zone becomes the new hot zone. That way, even powerful factions would have to fight to keep it. This would also lead to more fighting when the zones reset and everyone rushes to claim the new ones. To really get ppl going, how about a zone that generates a small amount of DP? To give smaller factions a chance, give them a longer imunity period when they take a zone, and in between attacks.
Also, instead of only allowing certain units to participate, I would say to just give it a special property, sort of like a wild card. The zone would provide a bonus for certain units or weapons, with bonuses favoring mechs more common. While I know mech vs. mech is more fun, it limits strategy if vehicles aren't allowed.
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Thunderlyon
Sergeant
Reged: 06/27/04
Posts: 196
Loc: Weiser, ID
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: sk7]
#125706 - 02/19/06 02:59 PM (208.187.168.57)
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And with mechs so much more expensive than they used to be, when I first started a commando was only 20 million now what 36-40 million, it would almost not be worth it to use only mechs without the zone(s) really worth something. but the idea of limiting some zones to specific type of units would add flavor to it all.
And maybe set it up that there is no retreating from a zone once combat is joined since the idea is to capture the zone. Really good idea actually. Since we lost pitares for now and do not have auto quests yet it would just add more emjoyment to the game.
Actually set all three of these up. Even if you keep FDOW it would give us something to do between the wars.
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Demoneyes
Newbie
Reged: 01/13/06
Posts: 5
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: Thunderlyon]
#125711 - 02/19/06 04:26 PM (24.118.140.13)
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Thats a stupid statement. Do you not think noob faction would be excluded from participating just like it dosnt need to fwar?
I only suggested that if the current war/fwar system was removed in favor of something like this or at least something based on this.
Any system i think really needs to be more than mechs and more than just lances otherwise you get the equivilent of a lance duel.
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Shai
Private
Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 47
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: Shai]
#125721 - 02/19/06 07:47 PM (69.243.21.182)
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More thoughts.....
Question: "How do you fight someone who can produce faster than you can kill?"
Amswer: In Swar you could use restrictions to accomplish the goal. You can only select X ammount of units to represent your nation per X ammount of nevdays.
Example= Mech Jocks. Crappy movie but for some reason I loved it. They had set in place political restraints on warfare to avoid nuclear/ large scale devastation.
S Regions could restrict your Faction after X units are sent in to fight.
As to the above replies- good thoughts on how to keep big dogs from just sitting on the S Regions. Having the S Region default back to Neutral after X nevdays should keep people actively fighting over them. What if your Faction was granted Fwar amnesty in regards to apposing factions you fight in Swar. The goal being that Factions could not threaten immediate Fwar for what occurs in Swar. Hopeful Swar would be political, strategic, breif, pilot vs. pilot warfare.
No need to get rid of Fwar etc- this is just food for thought for new LW incentives.
Other suggestions for S Region bonus to get people fighting over them: Bonus would be for duration of majority control until reset. Excellent Gunners, +X to sensors, +2 to Max weapon Range. What would it take to get people to risk mechs in a Swar? Suggestions?
As per above though- as long as no towers or fixed defense were permitted- and you were forced to be aggressive with Mech or Tank formations Swar should be different. And that is the true goal. I am not saying LW is not fun, Fwar is not fun etc. I think they are fun. I am trying to offer new alternatives to change things up.
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BigBoss
Recruit
Reged: 07/06/04
Posts: 135
Loc: Vancouver, BC
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: Shai]
#125723 - 02/19/06 08:15 PM (24.84.55.77)
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I must say, this is a brilliant idea. The control zone stuff is similar to that of AoW (Another Game similar to Neveron). Oh and on a sidenote, welcome back to Neveron, Shai.
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Bringing Terror to the Comforts of Your Homes
~BB~
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: BigBoss]
#125808 - 02/21/06 01:48 PM (71.100.240.191)
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i like it makes sense and anything that does never makes it into nev?
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Wayward_Son
Major
Reged: 07/05/02
Posts: 1287
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: cbtgod]
#125809 - 02/21/06 02:09 PM (216.19.47.80)
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We have implemented things like this in the past, like mines for instance, and it has alway failed not because the incentive wasn't there, but because people were simply scared to go challenge those who had control. The culture might have changed enough now where that won't be an issue, but in the past if we put say 5 important things out there, then the big alliances would simply divy them up between them and sit on them. Then, instead of rallying and trying to get them, players would simply complain to us that we 'just gave the big guys huge bonuses.'
There is a huge incentive to war. Look at the factions that war and the ones that don't. More and more then ones who war are successful. People complain about HOC and that 'we' (meaning the admins) need to 'do something about them,' but they are successful because they learned how to fight, teach their new players how to fight and go seek fights wherever they can find them.
Things like this have been both considered AND implemented over the past 5 years, and while it sounds cool it has never actually led to more war, just more bonuses for the players that are already warring.
WS
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Thunderlyon
Sergeant
Reged: 06/27/04
Posts: 196
Loc: Weiser, ID
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#125856 - 02/22/06 12:48 PM (208.187.169.146)
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Still something needs to be inplimented to help keep the game active. Lets be honest LW is now too expensive for most people. Unless you want to burn all the infra to break even. Then why LW if you have to do that? Admin wants to lower the unit count.... well it is not happening but infra is being burned to the ground like crazy due to war now costing more than the U.S.A. national debt. Who cares about real this is a game remember?
Making things more expensive only slows down the smaller empires not the larger ones. Say a person has a lvl 0-3 empire. Not big. But now with how much things costs and no pirates or incentives to be overly active they can log in every few days and keep things going. Or log in less. Who cares if a small empire like that gets ripped can start another one in short order. I personally feel this is what is starting to happen. New players are saying oh well and leaving when they see they do not need to do anything more than once per week at lower levels.
Is why I liked pirates and the other ideas put forth on this thread. At least it gives something more to do than to login check things and then log out. The RP arenas should also be fixed to allow for more use fo them. Some of the settings were way off and it was hard to get more than 3-5 people at a time to do them. There is alot of things that can be added to get people more active IMO and this is one of them.
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AndrewCrisp
Sergeant
Reged: 11/22/02
Posts: 176
Loc: MilCom Centre, Outpost One, No...
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: Wayward_Son]
#125865 - 02/22/06 07:32 PM (156.34.236.72)
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Wayward, nobody is doubting that "fortune favours the bold". What is missing from here is the fact that if someone risks and loses they will lose everything, especially with the retaliatory policies instituted by the larger factions and alliances.
In essence, all wars on Neveron are total wars, wars where the entire resources of a nation-state are bent to the purpose of obliterating another nation-state into nonexistance. History has shown that no nation can sustain a policy of total warfare indefinitely. Those that do are ruined economically and militarily. In player terms, this means the player cannot war anymore until he rebuilds, a process that takes months to years realtime.
The majority of wars in the past 500 years of real history are not total wars. More often, they are limited in scope and objective. The wars between the English, Spanish, and French over their colonial empires, for example, which were fought in their colonies but with little or no actual fighting in the home nations. Such a war - especially at the faction level - is cumbersome at best to orchestrate and impossible at worst. Faction Wars especially, hew more towards the total war aspect rather than the colonial - total subjugation of one side or the other is the end result, with the losers weakened that they are preyed upon still further by other factions seeking to avoid the "penalties" of peacetime.
Such wars are not bad from a Neveron perspective - but they are limited. Shmi and I are both looking for alternatives: wars that can be waged by even the largest of empires, but which don't result in the wholesale devastation of one side or another. Wars that are easier to rebuild from, and can be held more rapidly.
You're right that the larger empires will grab any unique zones or regions and divide them among themselves. I respectfully point you to my own alternative of dividing larger empires into provinces and instituting a kind of limited warfare where a province or two - rather than the whole empire - is the prize, as one possibility. I am sure other people can think of other possibilities if they have not already.
If limited warfare was built into the game, warfare that emphasises tactics and politics more than the brute force and "genocidal methods" (city-burning) that occur now, I guaruntee you there will be more wars and more complex wars than we have now.
Andrew
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"Why is that we always break up our history by the .. the wars, not the years of peace?... Because it's exciting, and because on some level people like to see something big fall apart and explode from the inside out. And right now, John, we're that something."
- Micheal Garibaldi
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Shai
Private
Reged: 03/12/04
Posts: 47
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Re: LW Incentives. SWar
[Re: Shai]
#126675 - 03/03/06 06:33 AM (69.243.10.132)
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Heya WW,
I hear ya on the big dogs sit on bonus etc. My question to you still stands. What kind of strange restrictions are possible from a coding aspect? The goal would be to avoid the "sitting" factor or the "Dominance and Retribution" factors.
Suggestions above were: Regions reset to uncontroled zones and need be fought over from the beginning each X nev time. Factions who have members that Warred over a Region are restricted from hitting one another for X time. So if you want to kick someones butt you would have to avoid Swar altogether. Or hire out a 3rd party to do your dirty work.
Lastly is it possible to set some line between Small and big factions? I.E. little factions who may not be warring because they can in no way even dream of affording LW, or are afraid to mess with a big dog- could war over an S region. But the big factions can not hit those certain regions.
Swar could be a sort of Aries Convention Warfare, chivalry, political war. Not a war for territory so to speak. Not a total war. And more like the colonial war that was mentioned in a post above.
On a diff note I have been pushing to get people from the game I run to play nev. The noobs do very much enjoy the FFA. It is cheaper than war and more importantly they see positive results. So I gotta give you props on that. FFA is a very cool addition to nev warfare.
I am trying to think outside the box and offer ideas to chew on. But I dont know the first thing about coding. So I will shut my yap now.
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