GreenBeret
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 345
Loc: Nuevo Mexico
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Novel idea...
#133882 - 07/12/06 04:58 PM (24.88.102.132)
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instead of adding more restrictions and rules... just make OMT horrendously more expensive. Tweak existing systems rather than add new ones. Standard game design practice...
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Tzu_Theory
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/28/04
Posts: 563
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: GreenBeret]
#133883 - 07/12/06 04:59 PM (69.175.146.87)
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Exactly... This SHOULD be the correction... else you are F-ing over MANY empires and players who will leave.
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Tzu-Theory
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Tzu_Theory
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/28/04
Posts: 563
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Tzu_Theory]
#133885 - 07/12/06 05:05 PM (69.175.146.87)
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I don't forsee any other end to these changes besides mindless, skilless combat...
I.E. you mash your army against mind... the end...
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Tzu-Theory
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Arkidda
Lieutenant
Reged: 01/02/05
Posts: 443
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Tzu_Theory]
#133886 - 07/12/06 05:10 PM (208.188.25.8)
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Yeah, I am with Greenberet, the game is getting far to complex... I have completely stopped in trying to recruit people I know here. I know for a fact they would get discouraged quickly with all the rules, complexity and now EXTREMEMELY slow progression rate. I am on the bandwagon with GB's OMT idea.
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Killing means you never have to say your sorry.
"We have a long road ahead of us." - "Let's litter it with bodies."
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Dzurath
Sergeant
Reged: 04/12/04
Posts: 150
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Arkidda]
#133887 - 07/12/06 05:36 PM (68.219.250.47)
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Have to say that this idea has a lot of merit, it would really discourage the OMT heavy empires, which si the target of the admins ill thought out idea.
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Dzurath]
#133888 - 07/12/06 05:45 PM (202.156.6.52)
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Second what Dzurath said.
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Urbies are good.
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CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: MatthewAce]
#133895 - 07/12/06 06:54 PM (24.32.87.123)
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Increasing Mobilization costs would have the advantage of discouraging the one city empires.
Make the corrections needed using already existing systems rather than making an already complex rule set even *more* complex. Each new round of rules brings ever increasing complexity and opportunities for exploit. The learning curve also increases on an exponential curve rather than a linear one.
In other words, the changes cater to the small, new guys on the one side. On the other side you drive them away because there is too much to learn before they get to the fun stuff.
CaB
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Isotope
Private
Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 38
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: CaBhaal]
#133903 - 07/12/06 09:06 PM (67.167.222.31)
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I think the change is great and necessary (regarding the updates for 7/12). The real goal of this update *is* to get new players interested in the game. It doesn't get horribly interesting until you get to level 4, and if *potential* sources of donation are killed off for no reason other than boredom by empires that fund their personal level 4 with their level 11 (Via DP and Salvage), then so be it, but blame the owner of the 11 for killing off possible permanent players.
What happens in most games when you are killed right away? You quit. This game is a business, it happens to be electronic online fun game business, that has taken years to code to this point. WW and Randy know what is going on. The people who donate operate predominantly lower level empires. Larger empires (level 9+) buy DP from these new donators, and fund the smaller empires for a *while* regardless of faction. Some of them invest the DP into a "fun" empire which kills the empires that they have purchased the DP from. These players then quit, and cease to donate.
This results in a loss of business. This is unacceptable for an online game to continue to function, since it cannot be pay to play. HoC mouthpieces consistantly beat the consensus drum, but I ask you this question, which I'm sure NO ONE of you will answer, since ya'll just complain about a statement being anti-hoc: "Would you rather have more rules that benefit potential donators, or have the game and servers delete making all your precious mechs non-existant except in your memory?"
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Gilgoreth
Sergeant
Reged: 06/11/06
Posts: 174
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Isotope]
#133906 - 07/12/06 10:08 PM (70.190.106.114)
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that is one of the most retarded things i have ever heard
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Gilgoreth
Sergeant
Reged: 06/11/06
Posts: 174
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Gilgoreth]
#133907 - 07/12/06 10:10 PM (70.190.106.114)
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darwin "keep it simple"
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TheSpork
Corporal
Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 67
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Isotope]
#133908 - 07/12/06 10:13 PM (65.6.173.7)
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Quote:
Increasing Mobilization costs would have the advantage of discouraging the one city empires.
Make the corrections needed using already existing systems rather than making an already complex rule set even *more* complex. Each new round of rules brings ever increasing complexity and opportunities for exploit. The learning curve also increases on an exponential curve rather than a linear one.
In other words, the changes cater to the small, new guys on the one side. On the other side you drive them away because there is too much to learn before they get to the fun stuff.
and
Quote:
instead of adding more restrictions and rules... just make OMT horrendously more expensive. Tweak existing systems rather than add new ones. Standard game design practice...
No one actually saying they are "against" the change, just easier, less complex and ass backwards ways to go about it. Sounds like HoC is definatley taking this one as "Anti HoC"....oh definately.
And, if the *real* goal is to get new players interested, I am guessing you think that adding another layer on the already pre-existing Dagwood Sandwich of Learning Curve is a good thing?
Your question is not anti HoC, though your attitude is a completely different story, obviously....
No one is (in THIS post, yet) knocking the changes, they are trying to point out that using the current system may work better, and keep it simple....to help keep the learning curve down.....to bring in noobs.....so people can STILL kill them....and drive them away anyways.
This is not a gripe, its a suggestion. Go over to general discussion and laud the changes there if you like, here we are just trying to get them to see the light.....maybe....if they ever leave the Cave of Unholy and Needless Complexity...
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Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all pretty much stink -------
Anonymous
"We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-H.L. Mencken
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Isotope
Private
Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 38
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: TheSpork]
#133912 - 07/12/06 11:06 PM (67.167.222.31)
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Note, so far, neither of you have said, should the game be allowed to delete because a small number of players decide who wins and loses?
To Gilgoreth: Exquisite and well thought out posts. I'm going to think about them for hours.
To TheSpork: Note, you made a long post, that confirms my original. Please do tell me whether the game should be deleted due to lack of donations.
My attitude is naturally anti-hoc. hoc looks for rules to break, rather than honorable warfare. There are few exceptions. I learned some time ago, which i was reminded of recently, that deals made with hoc will never be honored.
Your Gripe/Suggestion has been noted. I'm going to scream outloud to tell the admins they are doing a GREAT job, and that the people COMPLAINING the most have nothing to lose. They already dominate the game and most don't donate a dime.
The only update that would make HoC happy is that the person you dowed would instantly teleport his mechs to a zone of your choice and you could hit them as many times as possible with as many empires as possible and salvage them all at a 100% chance rate.
If you think that is not the case, find the most recent pro-admin post in the forums. I have a life to live and don't want to search back two or three years.
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Tzu_Theory
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/28/04
Posts: 563
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Isotope]
#133933 - 07/13/06 07:20 AM (69.175.146.87)
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Quote:
Your Gripe/Suggestion has been noted. I'm going to scream outloud to tell the admins they are doing a GREAT job, and that the people COMPLAINING the most have nothing to lose. They already dominate the game and most don't donate a dime.
I don't donate a dime? I donate more than any other single player in this game AND probably more than entire factions. I wax and wane as new game mechanics are introduced as I much more support the GAME than my empire. Who else leaves 500+ DP sitting on their loggin?
Quote:
If you think that is not the case, find the most recent pro-admin post in the forums. I have a life to live and don't want to search back two or three years.
12-June-2006
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php...true#Post132395
And that was from a basic search; I know I/we have more...
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Everyone is so ANTI-HOC- yet we play the game exactly as it's been designed to play. This type of gripping happens in every game where someone or some guild/faction/team dominates. I had my ass handed to me recently by a empire in FWLM; bro really did well and won. I gave him 25 DP for straight-up outclassing and outplaying me. He lost some major infra and units so I felt I'd help him out- it wasn't his fault I have the real life resources to beat him.
So stay on the anti-hoc train if you want. When it comes down to it; either you or our friends/factions are not as skilled at neveron than our alliance.
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Tzu-Theory
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Dzurath
Sergeant
Reged: 04/12/04
Posts: 150
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Tzu_Theory]
#133935 - 07/13/06 07:41 AM (68.219.250.47)
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I'll add to the clarification.
I think Tzu's suggested alternative is a good one.
I am a card carrying member of the anti-hoc club (inside game RP, outside of it, we're all players having a good time)
I donate (on average about $250/year)
I find all the people that think these latest rules are anti-hoc or pro-hoc are blinded by alliance hate and not really spending the time to think about just how these rules will affect game play in the future. I mean really think about it.
The admin have clearly thought about it, and we as players are objecting to not only to the changes, but the vision of homogeneity that they support as well.
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Tzu_Theory
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/28/04
Posts: 563
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Dzurath]
#133946 - 07/13/06 01:18 PM (69.175.146.87)
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Quote:
I think Tzu's suggested alternative is a good one...
Thanks; I think overcompensation for fundamental game issues/flaws is what is pissing players off the most.
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Tzu-Theory
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Greven
Sergeant
Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 161
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Tzu_Theory]
#133948 - 07/13/06 01:47 PM (80.138.79.232)
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Oh please.. don't argument with donations. They are just that. Donations.
They don't give the rights to complain, doesn't matter how much Person X donates.
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Dzurath
Sergeant
Reged: 04/12/04
Posts: 150
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Greven]
#133949 - 07/13/06 02:21 PM (68.219.250.47)
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Quote:
Oh please.. don't argument with donations. They are just that. Donations.
They don't give the rights to complain, doesn't matter how much Person X donates.
So... Isotope says that those complaining don't donate a dime, so they shouldn't be listened to... and Greven complains that it doesn't matter if we donate or not, so if we donate we shouldn't have a right to complain. Can't have it both ways guys.
Greven, this game is run by donations, those of us that donate are supporting a game when we see it going in a particular direction. It's actually in the admins best interest if those of us that are heavy and regular donators let them know when they're going in directions that will dry up a source of revenue.
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Tzu_Theory
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/28/04
Posts: 563
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Dzurath]
#133955 - 07/13/06 05:19 PM (69.175.146.87)
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Quote:
Quote:
Oh please.. don't argument with donations. They are just that. Donations.
They don't give the rights to complain, doesn't matter how much Person X donates.
So... Isotope says that those complaining don't donate a dime, so they shouldn't be listened to... and Greven complains that it doesn't matter if we donate or not, so if we donate we shouldn't have a right to complain. Can't have it both ways guys.
Greven, this game is run by donations, those of us that donate are supporting a game when we see it going in a particular direction. It's actually in the admins best interest if those of us that are heavy and regular donators let them know when they're going in directions that will dry up a source of revenue.
Yep.
Quote:
They already dominate the game and most don't donate a dime.
That's what I was referring to Greven...
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Tzu-Theory
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Greven
Sergeant
Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 161
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Dzurath]
#133968 - 07/14/06 02:12 AM (80.138.96.93)
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Quote:
So... Isotope says that those complaining don't donate a dime, so they shouldn't be listened to... and Greven complains that it doesn't matter if we donate or not, so if we donate we shouldn't have a right to complain. Can't have it both ways guys.
I don't have to agree with everyone in details just because I agree on the generell topic (recent DoW Changes).
Quote:
Greven, this game is run by donations, those of us that donate are supporting a game when we see it going in a particular direction. It's actually in the admins best interest if those of us that are heavy and regular donators let them know when they're going in directions that will dry up a source of revenue.
Sure, nothing wrong with that. But still noone, whoever it might be, has the right to tell the admins what to do just because they *donate*.
I donated too, when I was more actively playing, like 4 years or more ago, because I liked the game back then. What did I do when I did not like the game changes? I simply stopped and sold my stuff. I never saw those kind of donations as somekind of future investion in bragging right. If you don't like changes, write tickets, write in forums or even public mail, maybe they will listen.
Stuff like "you don't donate, so shut up" or "i do donate and more than you" does not help any site.
PS: Maybe this will stop some current donating people but on the other hand maybe it will encourage more people to donate because of the changes. If not, *then* admins might listen.
And seriously, as long as the people who complain about this are still sending in huge DP pools a month, why should Randy care?
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Tzu_Theory
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/28/04
Posts: 563
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Greven]
#133985 - 07/14/06 07:12 AM (69.175.146.87)
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I no longer send in Pools... last one was in June.
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Tzu-Theory
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Greven
Sergeant
Reged: 02/19/04
Posts: 161
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Tzu_Theory]
#133986 - 07/14/06 07:40 AM (80.138.96.93)
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I did not mean you in this specific case.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Gilgoreth]
#134008 - 07/15/06 03:39 AM (80.122.169.234)
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Wow Isotope, you just earned a medal for using the most words to say absolutely nothing of worth whatsoever.
HoC beating the drum of consensus?? LOL Since when has HoC been the concensus. Are you playing the same game as the rest of us?
What many HoC players have been saying, over and over and over again is fix the game. And they have been putting forward numerous possible fixes, that would have negative effects on many of their empires by the way.
You, Isotope, are an apologist. Many forum participants here are just the opposite, however: they are pragmatists that have ideas and want to see Neveron recover, improve and flourish. If we all did like you and just went along with everything because the "Nev gods sayeth so", well that would be a fun game wouldn't it. But if perchance a few of the great ideas put forth in these forums are listened to, and examined, and some kernels of inspiration taken from them... well then we have a glimpse at a brighter future.
And Gilgoreth said it right: Keep it simple
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Pimpslap
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/13/03
Posts: 365
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Re: Novel idea...
[Re: Isotope]
#134033 - 07/15/06 02:44 PM (68.229.251.70)
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The problem is this great change your so blindly following wont fix anything, just like most changes dont. All it will do is make the game more complex for the newer people and make it even more so that they cant compete with older players. The end result of this change and many more is still going to be newer players driven away, and older players donating less. Now please explain how that is good for a online game to continue. This change doesnt fix anything its just another great example of how the admins dont have a clue how to fix this broken game.
As far as your other stupid question about more rules for potential donators. I run probly the biggest DP empire in game, so im all for more rules that help empires like mine, but all the rules i get are making it so having dp empires at any level is a waste of dp. Were are all your rules that make me want to donate more to my empires? In fact if you look at the updates most new rules are very much anti-donating. cant build cored up empires now which has always been a HUGE dp spender.
The true loss of business in neveron is from the admins alienating older players, making our empires useless, and driving us away from the game, in order to cater to players who have been here for a month or two and will be gone in that same time. Yes these newer players do donate, its the only way now thanks to updates for people to get anywhere in this game within 6 months. And thats what is ruining this game.
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Harbingers of Chaos
COME WAR WITH US!!
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