Askhati
05/10/07 05:04 AM
155.232.128.10
|
I have been studying the background for MWDA, and especially Devlin Stone's (may his name never appear on a porno) reforms that left the IS short of BattleMechs. I have been trying to decide what the criterion for decommisioning would be ie why would certain designs be scrapped, and others retained. The only logical solution seems to be that any design which could be replaced by an equivalent vehicle design was free game for a decommision, while 'Mech designs that did not have a direct vehicular equivalent - designs with jumpjets came to mind - would be retained.
My question is this: if you were in possession of three lances of BattleMechs (this would depend on your House affiliation at the time), circa 3090, and Stone's reforms told you to down-size from twelve to two/three, which two would you retain and why? I cannot post every possible combination of designs, so if you could perhaps list the twelve 'Mechs you start with (and state your affiliation just for the record), and then the two/three you end with, I think it would be interesting to see the results.
Evolve or DIE!
|
Cray
05/10/07 09:34 PM
65.32.237.84
|
Devlin Stone only "downsized" personally owned Battlemechs, and then ONLY in the Republic of the Sphere. If you wanted to retain a personal mech, you made it the property of the local militia or military. But go figure: the idea of your neighborhood baron owning a personal armored fighting vehicle makes as much sense as letting your neighbor own a fully operational Abrams.
What really downsized the militaries of the Inner Sphere and Clans was the Jihad. The fratricidal conflicts of the era, plus the conflict against WoB, ate up warmachines while hammering their factories.
After the Jihad, Stone did DISCOURAGE the IS and Clans from rebuilding their militaries, instead encouraging them to spend the funds on reconstruction of war damage to cities and such. His argument for the Clans was simple and brilliant: the Clans had always advocated defending the many with a few, and Nicholas Kerensky and Alexander Kerensky had both idled excess warriors to let a few defend the many. The Clans ate into that shit hand and foot, and thus didn't rebuild their toumans to their pre-Jihad sizes. Instead, the Clans only let the most elite warriors remain and "dispossessed" the lessers.
The Houses...well, they started to rebuild their militaries, but bought into that "spend military reconstruction funds on civilian reconstruction" argument.
The end result of all this is that if you had 3 lances of mechs at the end of the Jihad, you'd keep 3 lances of mechs after Stone's reforms UNLESS you were in the Republic of the Sphere and not part of the military.
If you were in that unlucky niche category of being in the RotS and a civie with 3 lances of mechs, you'd get to keep none of your vehicles.
Quote:
(may his name never appear on a porno)
Not only does he have the perfect pr0n name, he's reportedly built for it: tall, handsome, and solid, way too good to be true. Keep watching Jihad Hotspots for more information about his flaws of perfection.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Askhati
05/12/07 05:33 PM
168.209.97.34
|
I very much doubt an upstart rebel leader (which is basically what Stone was) being able to dictate terms to the Clans and the Great Houses, but if WizKids says so...
Evolve or DIE!
|
Cray
05/12/07 10:41 PM
65.32.237.84
|
Quote:
I very much doubt an upstart rebel leader (which is basically what Stone was) being able to dictate terms to the Clans and the Great Houses,
And you're completely correct to that extent. Stone wasn't able to dictate anything, and in fact he did not.
The only major faction that had terms dictated to it was Liao, and Liao was pressured by the rest of the Inner Sphere to go along with Stone's idea of taking the most war-ravaged planets off their hands. Stone wasn't dictating anything outside of the Republic of the Sphere.
Quote:
but if WizKids says so...
Wizkids did not say so.
The changes in the Inner Sphere were a result of negotiation and diplomacy. The formation of the Republic of the Sphere did not involve dictated terms. The Houses did not accept dictated terms to concentrate reconstruction funds on civilian needs rather than military; that was common sense. The Clans did not accept dictated terms to minimize the size of their toumans; that was pure Clan culture and ego getting a good stroking.
Now, within the Republic of the Sphere, Stone did some dictating. But that has nothing to do with how he worked with the Houses and Clans.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (05/12/07 10:49 PM)
|
Karagin
05/12/07 11:29 PM
24.26.220.4
|
Cray it's clear he doesn't buy into the story as give to us by the writers. You know as well as I do that a lot of us aren't and won't accept the crappy story line that takes BT universe into and through the Jihad and ends with the universe of MWDA or what ever new name it has this month.
You know my objections to things and so far nothing has been done to address them or provide answers or even give us anything to reasonable base how the WoB does it does and how out of no where Stone comes to power and poof we have a new nation, with mercs giving up mechs and this some how causes a economic boost for Stone's new nation...and I am going to end this with how very similar this is to the rise of Trajan in the Renegade Legion universe and the rise of the TOG...but hey why not copy from something you own instead of being new and original...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
05/13/07 01:35 AM
65.32.237.84
|
Quote:
Cray it's clear he doesn't buy into the story as give to us by the writers.
It's one thing to not buy into the storyline; there are certainly points that are hard to explain. But Askhati got some of his facts wrong and blamed someone else for his errors. In this thread, Askhati was incorrect that mech units were forcibly downsized in MWDA and that Devlin Stone "dictated" terms to the Houses and Clans, and went on to blame Wizkids for these things even though Wizkids and FanPro never wrote anything of the sort.
Quote:
You know my objections to things and so far nothing has been done to address them or provide answers or even give us anything to reasonable base how the WoB does it
The canon answers are quite available and, within the scope of the BT universe, provide a detailed explanation of WoB's rise to power. You're just ignoring the equivalent events that occured in canon, like the Clan invasion.
In 1990, 300 million people sitting 1000 light-years from the Inner Sphere sent over 140 regiments and 65 warships into the Inner Sphere to conquer scores of worlds, and you didn't say shit about that or how the Clans rebuilt from defeat after defeat at incredible rates.
In 2005, WoB used TWENTY times the population of the 4 Invading Clans (6000 million people) in the heart of the Inner Sphere (on a planet with the most military factories in the game) to send 120 regiments and 40 warships on a holy crusade that conquered barely a dozen worlds, and you cry foul.
If you were new to the Jihad, Karagin, I'd have to say that's hypocrisy or willful ignorance of the setting. But the Jihad isn't new to you, so I take this to mean you're so entrenched in your views that you wouldn't recognize a reasonable explanation if Einstein laid it out for you with a roadmap. You'll discard every canon counter-example like the Clans and Comguards, you'll ignore any comparison to realistic military build-ups that dwarf WoB's efforts, and you'll continue to twist every detail in the most negative possible way to make your case. Worse, based on previous accusations of this sort, you'll think you're actually providing a balanced viewpoint even though you can't get your facts about the Jihad correct.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
05/13/07 02:13 AM
24.26.220.4
|
Cray, the numbers don't match and until something makes sense for the BT universe and follows the same cost issues that the players have to follow is shown to have been used, then you aren't going to convince me.
I have gotten the facts correct. The Jihad is poorly written and it doesn't follow the same concrete rules of the game that the players have to follow. Money issues are there but all you and the others who are support of this current storyline do is preach the line about they have the FWL money or for the tech side of the issues, they have Terra and the FWL etc...so if I use this logic that you keep repeating for years now, then there should be larger merc units, larger house armies and by far even large armies under the Clan banners, yet there aren't but we are suppose to just believe that the WoB can do all that it has done in 20 plus years with hardly anything to start with.
You are right the Jihad isn't new. It's a borrowing of story from RenLeg and lack of original thinking on the part of those who came up with it. It is also clear that it was setup to clean up things and try for a fresh start with new power blocs and main characters, and yet all it has done is polarize the BT community more so then anything else before it. And when you add in the end results ala MWDA you have even more issues.
As for a balancing point, how about some serious revamping and control and admitting that things in the story line are hokey and need to be redone...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Askhati
05/13/07 12:34 PM
41.208.48.64
|
Well, in that case I honestly think someone should sit down and write the whole history of the Jihad and the RotS out properly, in ONE piece (instead of scattering confusing little snippets through various books), and then publish it to the community. I think it would go a long towards clearing up some of the misunderstandings (several of my own) and general stigma surrounding the MWDA scenario.
I apologise for my ignorance in the matter, but the MWDA books I have read sofar (first 6 or 7 in series) have been somewhat vague.
Evolve or DIE!
|
Karagin
05/13/07 12:46 PM
24.26.220.4
|
I have read three total of the MWDA books...and only one of them was decent.
I agree with you completely. They need to give us the facts and not the "propaganda" and misleading reports that have been given out so far. Honestly The Dawn of the Jihad book wasn't well put together nor was it very helpful, in fact I think it muddied the already muddy waters even more.
And the 3070 book wasn't any better in clearing up things, while I can understand the need to keep folks guessing etc...sometimes it's better to give the facts and then offer other ideas and events etc...but they do need to give us all the facts and explain things so that they make sense and aren't left to speculation and second or third guessing. And by explaining things I am asking that all areas be explained in away that isn't a simple rehashing of the company line(s) about things. Details would be helpful and would tie off a lot of the misunderstandings and maybe convince some of us to change our minds on this storyline.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Toontje
05/13/07 01:39 PM
213.51.200.131
|
No, no stupid bland useless timeline; We (well, I anyway) want romance, betrayal, heroism, dynastic shifts, atrocities, hope and not least of all, big mayor explosions, metiors raining down, thermal nukes on fault lines obliterating continents.
A timeline is fine in a summary or something, to be published after the timeline has been slowly disclosed; it is BT history from the inception to bring it like that.
Rather to blow up, then.
|
Karagin
05/13/07 01:51 PM
24.26.220.4
|
Having all of that is fine...having it be interesting and believe is better. The idea of timeline would give us the important bullet points to know when something has happen, fleshing it out is even better, but it needs to be believable. Even for a game where robots are bashing each other to bits there still needs to be believability in the background storyline and plot.
All that you suggested could and can happen but the whys and what for's are the important part. Wanting to restart the game so that they can merge it with another game that happens use similar items and background points isn't in my opinion a logical reset point.
So to sum it up, I want adventure and action and believable plot lines and a story that is both dramatic and interesting. Not something that is over done and rehashed and borrowed from everything that has come before it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
05/13/07 02:53 PM
65.32.237.84
|
Quote:
Well, in that case I honestly think someone should sit down and write the whole history of the Jihad and the RotS out properly, in ONE piece (instead of scattering confusing little snippets through various books), and then publish it to the community. I think it would go a long towards clearing up some of the misunderstandings (several of my own) and general stigma surrounding the MWDA scenario.
Each new Hotspots book provides a summary of past events that sorts out the nuttiness of the previous book.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
05/13/07 03:05 PM
24.26.220.4
|
You mean the confusing and nonsense of the news reporting that seems to be the main focus by adding it's own nuttiness, how about the books go back to the older style that lays out what happens, why and gives some character view points and thus all of the misconceptions and misunderstandings and such would be gone...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Askhati
05/13/07 05:35 PM
41.208.48.64
|
Who controls this stuff, by the way? The story-line and all that - is it WizKids, or do the writers have a relative free reign?
Evolve or DIE!
|
Karagin
05/13/07 05:49 PM
24.26.220.4
|
According to Randal and others the writers are filling in the blanks between the end of the FC Civil War, ala the end of FASA, and the back history as we know it from the MWDA. SO seeing how they have to fit things to the events already set down by the MWDA timeline for it's back history you could say WK has control over the storyline.
Nukes and all...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cray
05/13/07 07:50 PM
65.32.237.84
|
Quote:
Who controls this stuff, by the way? The story-line and all that - is it WizKids, or do the writers have a relative free reign?
The original outline was set by Wizkids, i.e., the original writers of Battletech from the mid-80s. FanPro was licensed to fill in the details according to the outline set by those original writers. There's flexibility in the exact details, but the writers are constrained to produce a timeline continuous with MWDA's version of events. (Which is why MWDA tends to be vague about the past - it gives FanPro the most leeway.)
The big battles aren't going to change; the pacing of the Jihad isn't going to change; and if MWDA says someone died on Date X, then they die. In between sorts those "landmarks," the writers have leeway to fill in the blanks.
A great deal of the Jihad has not been filled in, though some key details are now available: the size of the WoB militia; how they could manage to build such a force (basically: they're much better grounded than the Clans ever were and are comparable to Comstar); and why the Houses and Clans haven't joined together to quickly destroy WoB (because they were fighting each other and didn't have players' OOC perspective.) Those details were filled in by FanPro writers.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
05/13/07 08:02 PM
24.26.220.4
|
They haven't fill in anything expalin HOW the WoB built up their army. All that has been filled in is a lot of hear say and "news" reports. So far nothing else has given us anything to go on and having you and other's who support the current story arc defend it by trying to do the writers job isn't something I or many of us, consider a good thing. Maybe it's time to put the cards on the table, explain things so all the points are answered and then give the color and fluff...and no Cray the WoB isn't grounded in reality of the game and it's dynamics at all. The Clans had 300 years to get to the point they are at. WoB had 20 plus years...yeah that makes sense...nope sorry not even for BT.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Toontje
05/13/07 08:45 PM
88.159.70.132
|
The beginnin only becomes clear in the end, narative rule..
If we all know Dr. Raisley is the Evil Genius, we'd see lots of signs confirming our suspicions even if they are not signs.
So the who, how, when, why, will come probably by what, 3080 about.. thus in say 3-5 years. Compare to how long it took for the clan homeworlds to be found.. something like, ehh.. 10 years if not mistaken (real time, not bt time).
Rather to blow up, then.
Edited by Toontje (05/13/07 08:46 PM)
|
Karagin
05/13/07 09:59 PM
24.26.220.4
|
More like 3087 just in time for them to come up with a new even way out there enemy to reset the game universe...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Askhati
02/06/08 05:25 AM
146.232.65.7
|
I know this is an act of necromancy, but bear with me.
Cray mentioned something about private individuals in the RoTS only being able to keep their personal BattleMechs IF these 'Mechs were licensed/integrated into the local RoTS militia forces. Does this mean that the private individual becomes part of the militia as sole owner and pilot of the 'Mech, or is the 'Mech piloted on a rotational schedule by trained militia pilots?
The same question goes for individuals owning aerospace units and BA suits.
Evolve or DIE!
|
Christopher_Perkins
02/06/08 07:11 PM
67.166.179.76
|
I would say that BattleMechs in Private Hands still belong to the Individual even if he has the duties and responsibilities of an enlisted person or an officer.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
|
Haruspex
02/12/08 12:15 AM
203.188.239.84
|
I still find it odd that the Clans and Inner Sphere, after five hundred years of constant warfare, four succession wars and one massive invasion could still find it in themselves to beat the snot out of each other. But after the Jihad, everyone (except Liao, who seem to be the only ones with common sense)suddenly agrees to engage in a suicidal arms reduction (or perhaps arms-not-rebuilding).
It's like a dozen people with big guns pointed at each other saying "hey, lets all drop our big guns at the same time. I totally trust you not to secretly build up forces and attack me when I'm at my lowest military strength evar." If it was that easy, there would be no military forces, period.
Also, "let's give away star systems, which our ancestors died to claim, to this ex-con freedom fighter who even ComStar knows nothing about. Yes, that sounds like a good idea. No, I don't think it's ironic that we after great loss and sacrifice won the Jihad only to throw those worlds away. Nor do I think that the creation of a new state, based on Terra where WOB had most of it's military factories is a bad idea."
A war torn world is still a world. As Jackson Davion said in Storms of Fate, each world has something to offer even if its just manpower or even a staging ground for more important worlds.
Although, I always considered the RoTS as a kind of buffer state like Rasalhague was. But that act was not followed up by a supersized military budget cut.
That said, I regard MW:DA as an alternate universe where the battles are much smaller in scale. That kind of setting appeals to some people I guess, though it seems designed to accomodate the click base game system (which also has a much smaller scale than CBT, how coincidental) with little regard to the history and spirit of the established storyline.
As for the Jihad itself, I'm counting on Catalyst or whoever to clear up the details. The clean up is what makes me go "huh?".
Conclusion: If you want a one on one 'Mech duel to literally determine the fate of a planet, go to the Dark Age.
If however you want a MechWarrior Colonel to, you know, command an actual BattleMech regiment, stick to CBT.
"If we were to plot the distance between where you are RIGHT NOW and the nearest good idea it would describe a line too big to fit inside the universe."
-Black Mage
|
Christopher_Perkins
02/12/08 01:49 AM
67.166.179.76
|
At the time the center of the InnerSphere was a lot like the Chaos March so it was either let them join what appeared to be a new Terran Hegemony or conquer them again.
After the chaos of the 3067 - 3087 period, it is entirely too possible that the old Terran Hegemony Region had had it with the upstart Houses...
With the Liscence on the Novels out of the ... at ROC we might see some novels for the Jihad era... and all other eras of BattleTech
Besides... the Governments didn't really disarm THEMSELVES, they disarmed the majority of the populace. and with the Military Forces on Pirate Hunting Footing rather than gearing up for war, a lot of BattleMechs were Mothballed while others were scrapped (IMO, most were mothballed in hidden caches while surpluss vehicles were broken up and sold as "peace medals"
Look Up the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act for your own research on what they probably borrowed from (art immatates life) but it is Real World Politics, so lets not discuss Pro/Con of Gun Control here...
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
|
|
|
Extra information
|
2 registered and 62 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 13383
|
|
|
|
|
|
|