Dead Fire Missiles

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Tripod
04/16/08 04:53 AM
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Found in the Tatical Handbook(i believe). i thought these were a great lowtech addition.

for those who dont know what they are...

DFM's are modified LRM and SRM launchers/ammo that replace the guidance system in the warheads with additional explosive charges. this reduces the effective range and severly reduces the accuracy of the weapon but the additional dammage often offsets these dissadvantages.

LRDFM's have standard launcher weight/crit with range thresholds of 6-12-18, no minimum range.

SRDFM's are the same, with ranges of 2-4-6.

the damage each missile does in increased by 1 point and the LRDFM missiles spread like srm's, not in 5 point clusters.

all to hit rolls are at +1 and the number of missiles hit is rolled by rolling 3d6 and dropping the highest die(ouch).

My question is, how does this sound as a specialty ammunition instead of a whole launcher? the lauchers are standard weight/crit? seems to me if you removed all the guidance bits and goodies it would free up some weight/crit space on the launcher....

opinions? too munchie?
TBA
Karagin
04/16/08 09:06 AM
24.26.220.4

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Not bad...offically DFMs were replaced by the MRMs, while that never made any sense to me, so say it was a better move...

I still use the DFMs as well as a lot of the stuff in the Tactical Handbook...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Fang
04/16/08 02:05 PM
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Does anyone ever use any of the tech in the MW adventure Unbound? like the Silver Bullet Gauss and such? I know that Thunderbolt launchers are in the tactical handbook as well, and some of the other items are now more mainstream with slight changes or tweaks.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
Karagin
04/16/08 03:45 PM
24.26.220.4

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I do. The OS Thunderbolts are a main stay in many of my games.

A lot of the warheads and other items have been used and while we dropped some of the stuff, like the VRRP idea, we have given it all a decent run at one point or another.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Christopher_Perkins
05/17/08 02:57 AM
24.125.201.167

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Quote:

Not bad...offically DFMs were replaced by the MRMs, while that never made any sense to me, so say it was a better move...

I still use the DFMs as well as a lot of the stuff in the Tactical Handbook...




It is my understanding that MRM didn't replace the DFM per se, its more like the MRM is a Production model of the tech prototyped in the DFM.

We will see if the DFM rules are reprised in TOM or if they outright state that the DFM rules were retconned out of existance in favor of the MRM rules.
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Newtype
10/14/08 02:13 PM
75.52.182.110

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Guidance systems and such are not removed from the launchers. The guidance in missiles (SRMs & LRMs) are removed to make DFMs. How about smoke, fragmentation, Thunder, and flare DFMs? How about SR-DFMs that remove 2/3 of the explosives for an AC/2 armor piercing ability and impose a +1 armor piercing to-hit modifier in addition to the +1 no guidance DFM modifier?
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Tripod
10/22/08 02:43 AM
192.94.94.106

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Yea, then guidence goodies are removed from the munitions but what about the other half of the guidence equipment located in the launcher itself? thats why i made the comment about the launcher being the exact same critical space and tonnage as a standard launcher. I'm not saying they should weigh less only that DFM shoudl be a special munition for standard launchers. just a thought. all in all DFM's are muchie for the crit-seeking abilities that the LRDFM's gain. I could see a house rule for them allowing 1,2,3 and 4 crits per launcher, same as a standard lrm. sorta...kinda....lol

Been awhile since i posted here, hello all!
TBA
Newtype
10/22/08 01:50 PM
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LOL, I can see the Capellan Confederation developing these SR-AP DFMs. The Capellan Confederation has been developing missiles for quite some time. SR-AP DFMs would be good against nearby conventional vehicles.
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Karagin
09/12/09 11:36 PM
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Actually they could use these quite well, in fact it would give them an edge over the normally higher tech Davion forces.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Akalabeth
03/03/15 02:13 PM
64.251.81.66

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Weren't these replaced by rocket launchers?

They probably retconned them because they did too much damage.

I dunno we have LRMs/SRMs which have minimal guidance, then we have MRMs which have even less guidance, and Rocket Launchers which are as bad or worse. How much more dumbfire can they get?

Pretty much all the missiles are dumbfire. :P
TigerShark
03/03/15 08:23 PM
12.130.166.32

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Supposedly replaced by MRMs but I don't see a precise correlation.

No guidance system + warhead + tube + propellant = rocket, no?
Retry
03/03/15 10:41 PM
76.7.225.145

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LRMs and SRMs are guided munitions. Only MRMs and rocket launchers have no guidance technology, although MRM launchers can use Apollo fire control systems, so MRMs might have at least a missile lock system of sorts.
Akalabeth
03/04/15 05:19 PM
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If LRMs are guided munitions why is there a specialty ammo called semi-guided that increases their accuracy?
wolf_lord_30
03/04/15 05:25 PM
166.216.165.93

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Artemis IV and narc missile beacons for LRMs and SRMs. Not sure about the other missiles as my books stop at 3058. So they would have to be guided to a point. The semi guided are in reference to TAG.
Retry
03/04/15 08:03 PM
76.7.225.145

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Semi-guided missiles have to paint a target with TAG before they become more accurate, and benefit from that. Normal guided missiles do not benefit from TAG and cannot.
Akalabeth
03/05/15 02:22 PM
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The point is, the nomenclature of "semi-guided" and the nature of its being more accurate than LRMs suggests that they are unguided. Semi means partial, or half, and if a missile is not partially guided then it is unguided. It is really a failing of the terminology more than anything else.

Looking at the stats, MRMs are actually worse than Rocket Launchers. They're both deadfire launchers with an accuracy penalty but MRMs for some reason have worse range brackets with less short and medium range compared to their overall range

Rocket Launchers are in fact a bizarre anomaly in the game in all respects. They are essentially one shot missile launchers except with a 90% savings in weight for no discernable reason.

MRM-10 One Shot is 3.5 tons, with 3/8/15 range band

RL-10 is 0.5 tons with 5/11/18 range band]

If I can turn a 3 ton weapon into a 0.5 ton one shot, why can't I make a Heavy Rocket Launcher 6 for the same tonnage doing 2 damage per missile with no accuracy penalty (ie a light weight SRM6 OS).

As for Dead Fire missiles. The one time we used them I found them very overpowered. GM equipped some helicopters with the technology and tore our forces apart.
wolf_lord_30
03/05/15 02:38 PM
166.137.244.52

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I agree that the semi guided makes it sound as if LRMs aren't usually guided.
But when you have Artemis IV and narc that increase your chances to hit with more missiles, they are obviously semi-guided too.
I think the publishers messed up on the name and should have said guided, not semi-guided.
Maurer
03/07/15 05:33 AM
45.48.53.140

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Quote:
Looking at the stats, MRMs are actually worse than Rocket Launchers. They're both deadfire launchers with an accuracy penalty but MRMs for some reason have worse range brackets with less short and medium range compared to their overall range



Well, first consider there are Dead Fire SRMs and LRMs, each with their own stats. Dead SRMS were 2/4/6 and 3 damage per missile that hit. DF LRMs are 6/12/18 with a minimum of 4 and 2 damage per missile. If I remember correctly, you roll on the appropriate missile column and -2, making it harder to hit a full spread.

MRMs seems to be a blend between both DF SRMS and LRMS, removing the minimum. and giving you a range of 5/10/15 and 1 damage per missile. It sounds like MRMs are simplified LRMs, reduced in size and lacking guidance systems. The small missile size allows more missiles to be fired per salvo per MRM launcher compared to to a similar SRM or LRM launcher.

Personally, I don't really care for many of the new missile systems. I perfer LRMs or SRMs with Artemis for IS or standard launchers for clan most of the time. Clan Streaks are ok, if I feel like I want the additional range, but I don't really like the full-lock or no shot of the Streak systems.
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Retry
03/07/15 03:06 PM
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Why not like clan Streaks? No lock means no waste and no heat on a miss. Biggest advantage is the inability to use special munitions, really.

Clan Artemis V, especially on the LRM20, is often overlooked. I don't know why, as it's an extremely effective, compact, lightweight addition to heavy launchers.

Min damage of LRM20s
Stock:6
w/Art IV:9
w/Art V:12

Avg Dmg of LRM20s on a hit
Stock: 457/36 (12.694)
w/Art IV: 553/36 (15.361)
w/Art V: 596/36 (16.556)

Chance to deal full damage (20) on a hit
Stock: 1/12 (8.33%)
w/Art IV: 5/18 (27.8%)
w/ Art V: 15/36 (41.7%)

Plus there's a -1 to hit, so you'll hit more often and the average damage of LRM20s per turn will be quite a bit greater with the Artemis V system than a standard launcher or even an Artemis IV equipped launcher. Artemis V is even compatable with AES! Try out a mech with an Art V, LRM20, and AES on one arm the next game you play.

As for deadfire missiles, they're most useful on the LRMs because it reduces minimum range to 4, meaning if you have DF missiles as at least part of your ammo load you don't need as long ranged weaponry to cover your minimum.
Akalabeth
03/07/15 04:23 PM
96.49.50.102

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Quote:
Maurer writes:

Quote:
Looking at the stats, MRMs are actually worse than Rocket Launchers. They're both deadfire launchers with an accuracy penalty but MRMs for some reason have worse range brackets with less short and medium range compared to their overall range



Well, first consider there are Dead Fire SRMs and LRMs, each with their own stats. Dead SRMS were 2/4/6 and 3 damage per missile that hit. DF LRMs are 6/12/18 with a minimum of 4 and 2 damage per missile. If I remember correctly, you roll on the appropriate missile column and -2, making it harder to hit a full spread.

MRMs seems to be a blend between both DF SRMS and LRMS, removing the minimum. and giving you a range of 5/10/15 and 1 damage per missile. It sounds like MRMs are simplified LRMs, reduced in size and lacking guidance systems. The small missile size allows more missiles to be fired per salvo per MRM launcher compared to to a similar SRM or LRM launcher.

Personally, I don't really care for many of the new missile systems. I perfer LRMs or SRMs with Artemis for IS or standard launchers for clan most of the time. Clan Streaks are ok, if I feel like I want the additional range, but I don't really like the full-lock or no shot of the Streak systems.



That's the thing though, MRM range isn't 5/10/15 but rather 3/8/15. It's actually kinda crap. They get both an accuracy penalty in shooting and also one in range.
Deadfire cluster table is 3d6 worst 2. So if you roll 6,2,1 your result is 3 (2+1).

Normal launchers (non-Streak) do have the benefit of special munitions which I believe the Streaks do not.
CrayModerator
03/08/15 08:43 PM
97.101.96.171

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Quote:
Retry writes:

Why not like clan Streaks? No lock means no waste and no heat on a miss. Biggest advantage is the inability to use special munitions, really.



I would've said the lack of indirect fire because I love IDF, but lack of specialty munitions is a big drawback, too.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Akalabeth
03/09/15 02:39 PM
64.251.81.66

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Would you rather have a Streak LRM-10 for 5 tons or an ATM-9? Neither can do IDF but the ATM can carry much more versatile ammo load and has longer range, etcetera.

LRM-10 will do 10 damage all the time. ATM 9 can do 9-27 damage at different ranges depending on what ammunition is available.
CrayModerator
03/09/15 04:38 PM
67.8.171.23

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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:

Would you rather have a Streak LRM-10 for 5 tons or an ATM-9? Neither can do IDF but the ATM can carry much more versatile ammo load and has longer range, etcetera.



Well, no, the ATM doesn't have more versatile ammo. It needs 3 very specialized ammo loads to accomplish what the same task as the one versatile ammo load of the Clan LRM (or Streak LRM). Notably...

Quote:
LRM-10 will do 10 damage all the time. ATM 9 can do 9-27 damage at different ranges depending on what ammunition is available.



...an equal tonnage of Clan LRMs will deliver the same damage (give or take a bit) as an equal tonnage of ATMs because of superior target numbers or larger numbers of tubes. The only time the ATM really has an advantage in damage is at 1-3 hexes. Of course, the Streak LRM 10 then takes a punch to its weight efficiency compared to regular Clan LRM 10s, so it is disadvantaged compared to the ATM.

So, to answer your question: I'd take neither a Streak LRM 10 nor an ATM-9, but rather an equal tonnage of normal Clan LRMs.

If I really am stuck with only a Clan ATM-9 or Streak 10, I'd take the ATM-9 and only carry short ranged and long ranged ammo. (The mid-range option is useless because the other two can do the same damage at its ranges.) I'd also call the commander responsible for being stuck with either of those lemons to a Circle of Equals.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Akalabeth
03/09/15 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Cray writes:

So, to answer your question: I'd take neither a Streak LRM 10 nor an ATM-9, but rather an equal tonnage of normal Clan LRMs.




Yup.
That's why when I want to be nasty to the players in my campaign I bring out a Kraken-3. Quite possibly one of the most evil designs in the game.
Retry
03/09/15 11:28 PM
76.7.225.145

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ATM 12:
Avg missile hits per successful weapon contact:
347/36 (~9.639 w/ Art IV already integrated)
287/36 w/ ECM Interference (~7.972)

Avg damage per hit (ArtIV Included):
347/36 ER (9.639)
347/18 Standard (19.278)
347/12 HE (28.917)

For use in comparing with the LRM20 data above if you're interested in attaching values to it

Also, LRM5 vs ATM3 (Missile hit rates)

ATM 3:
Avg missiles per hit
72/36 w/ ECM interference (2)
86/36 standard (2.389)

LRM5
114/36 standard (3.167)
138/36 ArtIV (3.833)
149/36 ArtV (4.139)
TigerShark
03/11/15 03:23 PM
12.130.166.32

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Yeah, the standard ATMs really aren't very good. Even though they outrange the enemy briefly (27 hexes isn't an ocean of distance: running forward 5 hexes puts you in ER PPC range), the ER ammo does so little damage that it's barely worth arming. Standard puts you in the same range bracket as ER Mediums, so you're not earning any points there. And the HE requires you to be up close and personal.

If you need to be 3 hexes away from your opponent to make a PRIMARY weapon system effective, you probably already lost in Clan warfare. The iATM is a different story, since its ammo actually IS versatile (IMP and IIW) and performs multiple functions with Streak and IDF capabilities.

But standard ATM is just a waste of space, IMO.
RockJock
05/21/15 01:37 AM
68.32.96.220

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I've used DFM as a specialty warhead load for years. We rarely used MRMs on the table unless it was a tourny type situation. My line of thinking is one of the big missle advantages over energy weapons is flexibilty. One launcher being able to use Standard LRMs, Swarm, Thunder, DFM, Smoke and so on is a reason to use them.

Just my two cents.
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