Prince_of_Darkness
Corporal
Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 98
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Dual Cockpit?
#151692 - 08/12/08 12:17 AM (71.215.57.179)
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I have heard of this "Dual Cockpit" from TRO: 3075 but cannot find any rules for it. Does anyone know what it is?
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Fang
Captain
Reged: 10/22/04
Posts: 981
Loc: North Carolina, USA
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Only dual cockpit I know is the command cockpit. There were rules for it in the now ancient Tactical Handbook as well as a couple of other places. If that is not what it is, then must be something a bit more recent.
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One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
<Dawg_of_war> can you research the Stone rhino design??
<jaggeh> sure but mankind will be extinct and the cockroaches will be playing nev and making fun of chet
PROMO CODE: I am the hammer
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Lafeel
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/02/08
Posts: 256
Loc: 104, Reykjavík, Iceland
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Fang]
#151695 - 08/12/08 06:28 AM (157.157.108.124)
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Should be in the, upcoming, Tactical Operations book. Either that or Strategic Ops *doubts it's in the latter though*
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3361
Loc: North America
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Quote:
I have heard of this "Dual Cockpit" from TRO: 3075 but cannot find any rules for it. Does anyone know what it is?
Which entry in TR:3075 has a "dual cockpit?" I ask because there's been a number of two-seater cockpits in BT but didn't remember editing a design with a command console or actual dual cockpit in the book.
To address all the possibilities...
Most 'Mechs have a spare seat in their cockpit so, technically, most mechs without small cockpits in TR:3075 will have a second seat. This may just be a fold-out seat with some safety straps in light and medium mech cockpits, but generally gets more elaborate in the cockpits of larger mechs, up to and including an ejection seat and some controls. The BattleMaster is the classic example of an over-developed "second seater" position. It has no game impact, but notionally the second cockpit provides some communication and sensor controls for a commander or observer to watch the battlefield while the MechWarrior runs the machine. The Warlord, a BattleMaster derivative in TR:3075, deletes this second position to streamline construction.
Vehicles often have multiple crew positions (technically, 1 crew per 15 tons, round up). The SM-1 in TR:3075, based on MWDA art, splits its two crew between two distinct bubble canopies. This has no game effect, it's just a normal multi-man vehicle crew compartment getting more description than is normal.
Then there's the Command Console that's been previously mentioned in this thread. It's a 3-ton, 1-crit item that goes in the head of a 'Mech. It is effectively a complete second cockpit for a second mechwarrior. It's primary function is to give elaborate controls to a battlefield commander who manages the battle while another mechwarrior runs the battlemech, giving the friendly side a +2 initiative bonus (similar to communications equipment on Mobile HQs). As a secondary function, it allows the commander to take over the battlemech if the first mechwarrior is knocked out or killed. I don't recall any Command Consoles in TR:3075, but I might be forgetting one.
Finally, there's the "dual cockpit." This item from the 2nd edition Mechwarrior RPG supplement, "Mechwarrior Companion" was, IIRC, a 1-ton, 1-crit Inner Sphere item in the mech's head. It turned mech operation into a 2-man job: one mechwarrior handled piloting while the other mechwarrior handled gunnery. At first, a 2-man team had piloting and gunnery penalties but as they got used to the division of labor, this Munchkin Machine gained substantial bonuses to piloting and gunnery. (As I recall, about -2 to each skill.) There were definitely no "dual cockpits" of this sort in TR:3075, since the munchtech is not going to be re-published.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly
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Prince_of_Darkness
Corporal
Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 98
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Cray]
#151699 - 08/12/08 11:29 AM (71.215.57.179)
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IT was talked about in the section that separated the older, Hedgemony machines that were making a comeback, and the newer 3075 machines (page 169)- it talked about Star League revisions on standard battlemechs and (you guessed it) that a variant of one redesign had the installation of a double-cockpit. Anohter design simply removed the Machine guns for one.
So it was that badass, eh? -2 to piloting and gunnery? Damn...
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3361
Loc: North America
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Quote:
IT was talked about in the section that separated the older, Hedgemony machines that were making a comeback, and the newer 3075 machines (page 169)- it talked about Star League revisions on standard battlemechs and (you guessed it) that a variant of one redesign had the installation of a double-cockpit. Anohter design simply removed the Machine guns for one.
That's on the BattleMaster, which is a well-known "command mech," so it's probably a Command Console not a "dual cockpit."
The folks I'd need to talk to to confirm that are at GenCon, though, so it might be a week before I can find out.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly
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Prince_of_Darkness
Corporal
Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 98
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Cray]
#151706 - 08/13/08 02:39 PM (71.215.53.64)
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Well, thanks for checking for me, Cray.
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ManDrake
Newbie
Reged: 08/17/08
Posts: 2
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Despite how it's been portrayed here, the Dual Cockpit design is fairly balanced if you are using MechWarrior rules, but it states that there isn't any way to balance it if you are playing Battletech. The bonuses are only a -1 to piloting and Gunnery. But it requires an additional skill and if you change partners, you have to relearn the skill again with your new partner, costing you skill points and time to get back up to speed to get the bonuses. At the start you get an +1 until you've trained long enough. Additionally if one of the crewmen is taken out somehow, you can't do anything at an above average level. Additionally the technology required to sync up two neuro-helmets and the computer systems in a battlemech aren't easy to do either. Requires high level techs to make it work, it's not something a couple techs could do in their free time on a dropship. It requires some serious hardware and experience to make it work. There were a handful of additional bonuses, Dual Cockpit mechs have a different movement modifier chart, and aren't as effected by movement modifiers themselves. In the age before targeting computers, DNI, VRPP, EI, C3, C3i, and so on, it was definitely a way to gain a lot of advantages without as much expense. But in the world that existed after those technologies were introduced, it's doesn't provide many more bonuses than those technologies provide a player.
As for the BattleMaster, there was some debate on if they used a real "Command Console". There are two variants of the command console, the version from the tactical handbook which only weight 2 extra tons, and then later on it was reinvented in Maximum Tech and suddenly it weights 3 tons. Ironically they also have a variant of the BattleMaster listed in the description of dual cockpits section as well, so there are a range of possible versions depending on what point of Battletech history that you look at them. But according to game mythos Kurita got working models from Comstar in the 3050 Technical Readout. And those were suppose to be real versions of the Command Consoles from the Tactical Handbook.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3361
Loc: North America
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Quote:
Well, thanks for checking for me, Cray.
TPTB have emerged from GenCon and the word is those Royal BattleMasters are supposed to have "Command Consoles." Those are 3-ton, 1-crit second cockpits that give a +2 initiative bonus to the friendly side.
The full stats for the mechs will probably be in Record Sheets: 3075.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly
Edited by Cray (08/20/08 11:22 AM)
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Newtype
Sergeant
Reged: 10/14/08
Posts: 100
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Cray]
#152071 - 10/14/08 09:11 AM (75.52.182.110)
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I'd like for the MW RPG Companion rules for dual cockpit to be changed so that it only masses an additional 0.5 tons in addition to standard cockpit tonnage.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3361
Loc: North America
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Newtype]
#152099 - 10/17/08 10:25 PM (97.97.243.184)
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Quote:
I'd like for the MW RPG Companion rules for dual cockpit to be changed so that it only masses an additional 0.5 tons in addition to standard cockpit tonnage.
Why? The MW Companion rules are unbalanced and munchy enough. Making them lighter won't help them.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly
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Christopher_Perkins
Sergeant
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 162
Loc: Stafford Virginia, United Stat...
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Cray]
#152103 - 10/20/08 09:23 PM (24.125.201.167)
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How Unbalanced & Munchy?
Having the MechWarriors Train together is a severe Balancing Factor... If one cockpit gets toasted (and the other doesn't), that would seriously affect the turn around time for the team... (the new guy and the old guy would both be out of action until they trained up.)
As for the Command Console... that doesn't really seam to affect things all that much... What is it in BT, a +1 to the initiative?
Still, the way that the rules currently are is good enough... reducing the tonnage would be a bad idea...
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Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Edited by Christopher_Perkins (10/20/08 09:42 PM)
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3361
Loc: North America
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Quote:
How Unbalanced & Munchy?
Having the MechWarriors Train together is a severe Balancing Factor...
If you bother with a MechWarrior RPG aspect. If not, they're just a check box on the board game record sheet you can mark off.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
"Woo, that was bracing! They don't like it when you shoot at them. I worked that out myself." --Mal, Firefly
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Newtype
Sergeant
Reged: 10/14/08
Posts: 100
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Cray]
#152135 - 10/25/08 10:13 AM (75.52.182.110)
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Using BV you can make the Dual Cockpit reasonable to play with. I think that the attacker movement modifiers for the dual cockpit should be changed so that the gunner in the dual cockpit simply negates the attacker movement modifiers all together like the way additional crew personnel do according to Maximum Tech rules.
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Christopher_Perkins
Sergeant
Reged: 01/20/08
Posts: 162
Loc: Stafford Virginia, United Stat...
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Cray]
#152186 - 10/29/08 06:31 PM (24.125.201.167)
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Quote:
Quote:
How Unbalanced & Munchy?
Having the MechWarriors Train together is a severe Balancing Factor...
If you bother with a MechWarrior RPG aspect. If not, they're just a check box on the board game record sheet you can mark off.
That is not just an RPG Aspect... That is a BattleTech Campaign Aspect as well
Dual Cockpits are no more unbalancing than Clan Warriors getting a bonus to their Gunnery & Piloting Selection Rolls
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Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Zandel_Corrin
Corporal
Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 73
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Last duel cockpit rules i saw were quite good.... Simply negates the penalty for firing into two arcs and could still fire some weaps while sprinting (L3 rule) and such but at high penalties....
This was a house rule that i saw tho so it's not munchie and adds good flavor (yes i know a lot of house rules can be VERY munchie.... like the ones Newtype is after but GOOD gamers do not make stupid munchie rules)
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Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Newtype
Sergeant
Reged: 10/14/08
Posts: 100
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Zandel_Corrin]
#152314 - 11/07/08 08:19 AM (207.160.205.13)
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Again, Zandel Corrin, put up or shut up.
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Prince_of_Darkness
Corporal
Reged: 08/03/08
Posts: 98
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Newtype]
#152318 - 11/07/08 09:05 AM (205.202.120.139)
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Quote:
Again, Zandel Corrin, put up or shut up.
No.
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Zandel_Corrin
Corporal
Reged: 10/06/04
Posts: 73
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Re: Dual Cockpit?
[Re: Newtype]
#152352 - 11/09/08 03:11 PM (123.2.140.247)
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Quote:
Again, Zandel Corrin, put up or shut up.
If I ever want your opinion i'll ask for it.....
Also to everyone... if I ever ASK for his opinion.... SHOOT me then and there!!!
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Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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