rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 252
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discussion on duncanmons idea: Sandbox
#151837 - 09/12/08 05:32 AM (62.43.195.149)
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This thread is for the refinement of Duncanmons idea of sandbox, while we can still try to find new ideas in the general thread "changes needed in neveron".
Duncan:
From what I'm reading here, it looks to me that Neveron is
a) too complex for newbies,
b) not complex / challenging enough for long-time vets (if it was challenging enough, the vets wouldn't be engaged in newbie killing, enforcing against said newbie-killing, or blaming each other for newbie-killing).
Not entirely sure how to fix the second problem, but a thought that occured to me is that Neveron needs a tutorial system. We have a partial system with Noob Island and the single quest, but nothing structured and designed to take a newbie through the various aspects of Neveron gameplay.
Now I will leave it to the more experienced to attempt to fill in details of what a proper tutorial system should cover and how far it should go, but I'd like to outline the concept of a restricted, tutorial empire, a new player would have to run through either while developing his first empire or before he develops his first empire. Here are my off-the-cuff thoughts:
1. The tutorial empire is isolated from Neveron proper. Think of it as an impassible island or an isolated area like the arenas. A new player starts off with a single zone, a set amount of cash, no vehicles and no soldiers apart from his emperor, and a single building. The surrounding area is FREE of all empires, even fellow new empires.
2. The only way to progress through the tutorial empire is to complete each activity. For example, I'd think the first activity would be to build a building and claim neighboring zones - use this to teach how the build system works, how land management works, with messages and/or popups to make sure the new player gets the message.
3. Certain activities will require an AI "empire" to work against. Such an empire will be auto-spawned complete with one or more cities and a defensive force. I strongly recommend that an AI empire be designed to mimick a well-built and managed player empire, so that the new player gets a feel for some items that may work and some items that may not. This could be used to teach how SOI/garrisoning works as well as how to declare war and attack. Done right, we could also use the AI empire to teach about different vehicles and different zone terrains. Player has a chance to make mistakes here and learn from them without putting real empires in danger.
4. The tutorial empire will come with a tutorial market, designed to reflect how the Nev market works. The market activities will also come with sufficient funds for the tutorial empire to handle purchasing anything for the purposes of the tutorial. Done right this might also help teach people about different vehicles. Tutorial empires will also have prefab soldiers available for "hire" and an accelerated training system.
5. The tutorial empire will run at the *player's* pace - i.e. tutorial empires will experience time only when the player is online. That way, the new player can go away and come back if life gets busy. OPTIONAL - a possibility to "do-over" older activities in case the player feels he needs the extra practice.
6. At the end of the tutorial period, the player will have a graduating or extra credit activity where he may be attacked by another player empire. There would be a list of volunteer "attacker empires" that would be informed when a player is ready for his extra credit activity. A volunteer empire can assemble a force using "clones" of some of his units (personally, I'd recommend limits be set at 50-60 tons per vehicle/mech, and no units below 2/2 in related skills). Clone units would not need to be trained or purchased - I'll let others think of the behind-the-scene mechanics involved for this - but would give the volunteer a ready-to-go force he can use for the attack without using his own finances or units for the effort. Volunteers would not get anything beyond good karma for participating which might help keep out bored vets and attract vets who actually want to teach. New players completing the extra credit may get a "prize" that will translate to their real empire - a light mech, say, or cash, or treasure points - the amount of cash or TP and the kind of mech would be related to how well the player handled the extra credit activity. Players who don't pursue the extra credit would not get anything save the knowledge they acquired performing the tutorial.
Now I am sure that some of the vets will think of a billion flaws with this system. By all means, post such flaws, and how you would fix them. But it is my hope that such a tutorial system - or some variation thereof - will help to give newbies a chance to learn the ins-and-outs of the game without risk and without providing temptation to bored vets.
As for making the game challenging enough for the vets... others will have to concentrate on that. I got nothing so far.
Hoppy:
Duncan has a damn good idea, The Word of Blake and EFS factions fully support this.
Katrar:
DuncanMons, yeah a fully realized tutorial would be of great help to new players. I think that is what was intended when the tutorial "missions" were thought of years ago. Unfortunately, like so many other things on Neveron, it never grew beyond the first day's work (mission #1), and has languished forgotten ever since.
imho simply adding a bunch of new repeatable missions, from simple to complex, would be a huge learning help for new players, and wouldn't require the extensive recoding necessary to create a new sandbox mode.
But your basic idea, that new players need a place to learn away from the rest of the game's predatory players, is pretty accurate.
Nahte
I fully support Duncans idea. Noob island was a step in the right direction. I have been playing for 3 years and have never made it above lvl 5 for various reasons(mainly getting pwed by lvl7+). Right now I have two empires on noob island and to be honest, its a meatgrinder.
The sanbox mode should be set up on a seperate area(or server if possible). It should have an tab when you make a new empire asking if you would like to take the tutorial. Then it tosses you in a 'safe area' to learn how to build you empire. I like the idea of having the AI empire to 'beat' on. Might be a good idea to add a storyline into it to make it more engaging. I also like the idea of the cloned units. This would almost be like arena fighting for noobs so they can get the hang of moving units/giving orders/ weapons systems/ect.... The only thing I disagree about is the time stop idea. Building shoud still build and collect money but militaraly I think it should stop or pause.
OVer all a very good sujestion.
Hoppy:
ok let refine this idea, then maybe some ppl who know how to code can work with WWS because if it's him alone he wont ever have the time to get it done.
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cbtgod
Major
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1405
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: discussion on duncanmons idea: Sandbox
[Re: rantamplan]
#151839 - 09/12/08 06:28 AM (97.97.246.88)
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challanges for vets pirates its that simple?
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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DuncanMons
Newbie
Reged: 08/28/08
Posts: 15
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Re: discussion on duncanmons idea: Sandbox
[Re: cbtgod]
#151840 - 09/12/08 05:27 PM (205.174.160.5)
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cbtgod: I've been thinking about something similar, although more along the lines of "AI empires / city revolts" that could serve as both a training exercise for newbies in war, as well as anti-boredom vaccine for the vets. Such an item might be useful if the newbie sandbox idea is not implemented (or even if it is). Since the idea of revived pirates/AI "pushover empires" is different from the sandbox, I'll leave that for another post.
Nathe's on to something with giving the new player the option of using the tutorial or not - that way if, say, we have a player returning to the game, or starting fresh, he doesn't have to burden himself relearning the basics, while new players who are not sure of how to run the game can run the tutorial.
About the storyline for a tutorial... my suggestion is to Keep It Simple. Not sure how many people here ever played the Age of Empires games, but the "story" for the tutorials in those might be a good model - nothing fancy, just a straightforward "build up an army and fight the enemy" setup.
Others may disagree but I think this might be a good sequence of objectives:
1. Construct a Town: You start off with a single zone and 5,000,000 funds, plus the ability to build CF25 buildings. To complete this objective, build 4 4-floor CF25 residential buildings and 1 4-floor CF25 commerical building. Skills taught: the Land/Building interface. Reward for finishing: 20,000,000 in funds.
The AI tutorial empire starts off with one zone roughly 5 zones away, and likewise builds a town in the same time.
2. Assemble and train a force: You gain access to the tutorial market, that carries some light vehicles - keep the selection small, limited to light vehicles, and a description of each vehicle's strengths and weaknesses from the player's point of view (vet input on what the text for each description should be is encouraged, but no "This suxs, don't use it" or "This rocks, use it" messages. Descriptions should inform a new player, not narrow his choices to one unit type). Your goal: hire soldiers and buy one lance's worth of vehicles. Commission those vehicles, form them into a lance, and train them for 40 nevdays. Skills taught: market, armory, lances, and training interfaces.
AI tutorial empire also "buys" new units, forms a lance, and trains them, but their units will be one skill level worse than the player's units.
3. Set up a perimeter: You've got a town and a (fledgling) army, now it's time to expand. Claim the eight zones immediately surrounding your own zone. (Possible idea: have two bordering zones from a "destroyed" AI empire (i.e. no cities, no units) - use your SOI capacity to claim those zones). Skills taught: the map, SOI, claiming zones and possibily effect on morale and finances.
An alternate additional objective for this step would be to build 5 sensor towers and place them, one in the town zone, and one each in the zones north, south, east, and west of the town zone. Explains the purposes of sensor towers.
AI tutorial empire claims the eight zones surrounding its zone, and claims four extra zones, one on each side, so that there is a straight line of claimed zones between your town zone and their town zone.
4. Research a technology: Time to explore the research option of Neveron. Build 4 residentials same as in step 1 and a matching research building. Set to a technology (say, Land Management 1). Skills taught: research interface. Reward: 30,000,000 funds.
AI Tutorial empire gains all technologies needed to build a repair bay, and proceeds to build a repair bay on the one zone bordering your empire. The AI empire also builds a sensor tower in that zone.
5. Buy and train a mech: So far, you've got a lance of vehicles, but it's time to outfit your emperor for battle. Using the funds rewarded to you in the last step, buy a light mech for your emperor. Same deal as with buying the lance of vehicles, but with player's persepective on the strengths and weaknesses of the mechs, as well as a primer on heat. Skills taught: basics on mechs.
AI Tutorial empire buys a mech for its emperor, once again with one skill level worse than the player's emperor. AI empire then builds enough residentials in its town zone so that its population is either equal to or slightly less than the total battle value of its army, and moves its vehicle lance to the border zone.
6. It's War! The AI empire wants to destroy you! It has launched an attack on your sensor tower zone. Take control of the sensor tower and use it to see what the enemy is throwing at you. Skills taught: Battlefield interface, line of sight, sensor capacity.
AI tutorial empire finds and destroys the sensor tower, conquering the zone.
7. Repelling the invasion: The AI pauses in its attack. Time to kick it out of your back yard. Mobilize your vehicle lance and attack the zone the AI took from you. Destroy all enemies. Then take the fight to the enemy and conquer the border zone. Skills taught: controlling units, battlefield basics.
8. Preparing to counterattack: The destruction of the AI's attack force and capture of a zone has triggered a cease-fire. Since the zone you conquered has a repair bay, use this time to hire techs, buy replacement parts (the right parts will "appear" on the market) and repair your vehicles. If you lost a vehicle or two, replacement vehicles will be available (the tutorial will have the crew-kill critical hit disabled, so you won't have to replace soldiers). Skills taught: repairs.
AI tutorial empire sulks. Its emperor readies itself for the last stand.
9. The Final Confrontation: At last, you confront the aggressor on his home turf. Mobilize your mech and march on to the AI's town. Find and destroy the enemy mech. If you fail, you can repeat this phase with a fresh mech - but the AI also gets a fresh mech. Good luck!
Will this work as a "curriculum"?
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Nahte
Sergeant
Reged: 05/20/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Usa
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Re: discussion on duncanmons idea: Sandbox
[Re: DuncanMons]
#151841 - 09/13/08 01:13 PM (67.140.104.191)
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I like the idea of keeping it simple. To many time has a game had to complocated of a story line that sucks the fun out of it. Just one thing to add to the story line idea you have here: You need something for the diplomatic point of the game. Just an idea I came up with but somewhere inbetween step 8 & 9 why don't you have something like this:
AI TE(tutorial empire for short) Has an Ally next door! Units from (fillin the name of empire) are seen moving toward the boarder zone! But wait, you get a message from (fill in with name of empire) saying that if you give them(add in resource, vehicle, maoney amount,ect...) they will keep the AI TE Ally busy for you to strike the killing blow! You agree and the attack is on!
Just a draft I though up while sitting here.
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A will gets more than a gun.
A hero is only a man who is brave five minutes longer.
"Death solves all problems. No man, no problem." Joseph Stalin
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