Prince_of_Darkness
11/07/08 12:28 PM
205.202.120.139
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If you have TRO: 3075, you will know that there is a new Atlas in it, obviously dubbed the Atlas II (2). It looks nice and all, but I really have to say:
Is this really the power of the Star League?
Sure, the original Atlas had/has it's faults, but it was still pretty dangerous. LRM 20's on anything make for some nice ranged damage, and the short range was absolute death with an AC/20, 2x ML, and an SRM 6 to top it all off. Closing with the Atlas was death unless you were an Atlas yourself. But of course the original Atlas lacked range severely, especially medium range, but it still was quite dangerous.
After living though the terrible 3050 refits (an XL engine and SHS? The hell?) I wondered if the new Atlas II would revive this beleaguered Beast. What I got was more or less a pretender. Some of my reasons Include:
1. LB 10-X Autocannons are NOT main weapons on Assaults.
- An LB 10, while an excellent gun, can't do enough damage to justify itself without backup hole punchers. Here, on the Atlas II, it is the most damaging weapon. Seriously. That's a little screwed up.
2. Superfluous Weapons are quite bad, last time I saw...
- You Already have the LB 10. Why do you need an SRM 6? It makes no darn sense.
3. Too little short-range firepower
- The only "real" short range weapons are the MPL's and that SRM, both of which are completely secondary. Again, the SRM 6 has no real purpose with that LB 10 riding...shotgun (sorry for the pun  )
4. Too little direct damage
- The Atlas II has a "death-by-Papercuts" thing going for it, with dual ER LL's, 2x MPL's, an LRM 20, an SRM 6, and that LB 10X. With it's highest level of directed damage being 10 points, the Atlas II needs someone with a really heavy weapon (HGR, anyone?) to actually make it effective.
Just from this overall explanation the Atlas II is more akin to a support 'mech than the true Assault 'mech that it was supposed to be. To me, I cannot make this stand. I need a REAL Atlas II.
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Lafeel
11/07/08 02:19 PM
157.157.106.160
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Now you mention it, you have a point there. Still doesn't mean that it is a useless design by any means, if you ask me..
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Prince_of_Darkness
11/07/08 02:28 PM
205.202.120.139
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Yeah, but it just doesn't "feel" like an Atlas.
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Lafeel
11/07/08 02:32 PM
157.157.106.160
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Quote:
Yeah, but it just doesn't "feel" like an Atlas.
True enough, but it wouldn't be the first time a refit wouldn't feel like the original. Hell, the Akuma feels more like a Atlas than the 3050 refit (mind you there is a reason why that one didn't have dhs, and that is that the Combine were late in developing them)
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Prince_of_Darkness
11/07/08 03:26 PM
205.202.120.139
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Huh; well, that would explain the Hatamoto Chi.
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Lafeel
11/07/08 03:36 PM
157.157.106.160
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Quote:
Huh; well, that would explain the Hatamoto Chi.
That, and the fact that the 27-T dates back to the early 40's.
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Prince_of_Darkness
11/07/08 03:56 PM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
That, and the fact that the 27-T dates back to the early 40's.
Doesn't explain the Endo steel 
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Lafeel
11/07/08 04:00 PM
157.157.106.160
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Quote:
Quote:
That, and the fact that the 27-T dates back to the early 40's.
Doesn't explain the Endo steel
Actually, it does. The Hatamoto-Chi was the very first mech to use it since the technology to make it was rediscovered (by the Combine, no less, check the tech manual)
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Rotwang
11/11/08 07:31 PM
78.23.13.90
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The Atlas II was mentioned in the Star League sourcebook as fluff turning Kerensky into a huge, muscular superhero, which always lead me to believe that it was a kind of pulp story and that the writer made up new designs to make it sound more exciting.
The Atlas II is a mistake by people who take the fluff at face value.
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Venom
12/19/08 04:30 PM
192.44.136.113
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"1. LB 10-X Autocannons are NOT main weapons on Assaults.
- An LB 10, while an excellent gun, can't do enough damage to justify itself without backup hole punchers. Here, on the Atlas II, it is the most damaging weapon. Seriously. That's a little screwed up."
The LB 10-X AC was the most advanced AC of the time when the Atlas II was introduced, and we can't have anything but the best for Kerensky's pet-project now can we?
"2. Superfluous Weapons are quite bad, last time I saw...
- You Already have the LB 10. Why do you need an SRM 6? It makes no darn sense."
The AS7-D had a SRM-6 and the AS7-D was perfection, you can't mess with perfection.
"3. Too little short-range firepower
- The only "real" short range weapons are the MPL's and that SRM, both of which are completely secondary. Again, the SRM 6 has no real purpose with that LB 10 riding...shotgun (sorry for the pun )"
The AC and the ERLLs can be used in close as well.
"4. Too little direct damage
- The Atlas II has a "death-by-Papercuts" thing going for it, with dual ER LL's, 2x MPL's, an LRM 20, an SRM 6, and that LB 10X. With it's highest level of directed damage being 10 points, the Atlas II needs someone with a really heavy weapon (HGR, anyone?) to actually make it effective."
The AS7-D had a potential 42 damage in close. The Atlas II has a potential 40(2 MPLs, AC, SRM, and ERLL). However, the Atlas II has the potential to do 28 to 36 damage at range using the LRMs and stagering the use of its ERLLs to keep cool as opposed to the 20 potential damage of the AS7-D. You can grind away while closing which is a capacity that the origional did not have. You also have alot more staying power.
As for needing a teammate, just think of what an Atlas II and a King Crab could do working together. The KC blasting holes for the Atlas to exploit and the Atlas covering the KCs retreat when it expends its ammo.
All in all, the Atlas II is growing on me the more I get into playing pre Succesion war games. The Atlas II and SLDF Royal units are a bear against House armies. Do I miss the satisfaction of destroying entire sections with a single hit of my AC/20? Yes. Do I miss the resounding *click* I get when it runs out of ammo and there are still alot of baddies about? Hell no. The II addresses the lack of staying power that energy weapons provide. In fact the Atlas that I played Lvl 1 with for years tosses the LRMs and arm-mounted lasers and sports twin PPCs(got into a nasty firefight and lost my LRM-20 to a Marauder, but I got the better of him and salvaged his PPCs; neccesity being the mother of invention and all that)
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Lafeel
12/19/08 10:02 PM
157.157.75.183
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Well said. It is different but that does not make it a bad mech (in fact, in the hands of a thinking pilot it is potentially extremely deadly).
And have only one thing to say to the KC-Atlas2 combo..Ouchies! They are a perfect match.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/21/08 05:53 PM
123.2.140.247
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I like to mod my KCs...
don't see the point of the LRM so drop that for another LL and add extra ammo.... don't have the book in front of me right now but the mod does work with enough room for a good amount of HS to keep it cool.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/31/08 04:18 AM
173.116.112.136
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I was never a fan of the Atlas. As I see it it is just a step up from the Charger. I have always seen the Atlas as being heavy to be heavy. It could be redesigned to be lighter and more effective. Drop the LRM 20 for a LRM 15 and drop the AC20 for 4 med lasers. That right there will save 14 tons not including the weight savings on the power plant and IS.
The thing is a lot of things in BT are heavy just to be heavy. I have redesigned mechs that lose 5 to 10 tons ,even more with tanks, with out changing there combat ability much at all. If its to be heavy I want real firepower, not just dead weight. I took a tank from 60 tons down to 20 tons and its firepower was not lessened in the least. Granted, I replaced the ICE power plant with a fusion power plant to do it. But even with replacing the ICE PP with a fusion PP the new tank was even cheaper than the original tank by a great deal.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Dester
01/09/09 03:48 PM
216.57.96.1
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Atlas is scary, atlas II is blah. And before you say its not scary... why do you stay so far away from the front arc when one comes on the field?
Donkey, sure 4 med lasers is the equal damage as an AC-20, but no one fears 4 med laser hits near as much as an AC-20, especially lighter mechs. Also there is the physical damage to consider of a heavier mech. 10 pt punches and 20 pt kicks hurt...  sadily I had a beloved javilin pilot die when an atlas toso twised to punch out the cockpit when the javilin was right behind it.
Dester
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/14/09 08:48 PM
67.180.139.229
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Quote:
Atlas is scary, atlas II is blah. And before you say its not scary... why do you stay so far away from the front arc when one comes on the field?
Donkey, sure 4 med lasers is the equal damage as an AC-20, but no one fears 4 med laser hits near as much as an AC-20, especially lighter mechs. Also there is the physical damage to consider of a heavier mech. 10 pt punches and 20 pt kicks hurt... sadily I had a beloved javilin pilot die when an atlas toso twised to punch out the cockpit when the javilin was right behind it.
Dester
What was he doing with in range of a physical attack?
As for the ac20 just make him use up his 5 shots and all that ac20 is is 14 tons of dead weight. Or just stay 10 hexes away and pot shot it.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Lafeel
01/14/09 09:21 PM
157.157.28.195
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Which is precisely why a ac-10 can be a better choice, because of those extra five (or eight, in the case of the lbx model) hexes of range.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/15/09 12:05 AM
67.180.139.229
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So you will have a AC10 and a AC20 on your mech? That is some serious weight!!!
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Lafeel
01/15/09 03:40 AM
157.157.28.195
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Quote:
So you will have a AC10 and a AC20 on your mech? That is some serious weight!!!
Not at all, as I'd much rather use a AC10 in place of the AC20. Sure I'm losing some hitting power, but the extra range makes up for it on a mech this slow.
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Zandel_Corrin
01/15/09 06:00 PM
123.2.140.247
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True and if it's an UAC then you don't really loose the damage and if it's an LBX AC then you get vesatility and extra range.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/16/09 05:18 AM
67.180.139.229
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Then why not just go with a LL? AC10 weighs 12 tons with 1 ton of ammo, and 3 heat sinks, that's 16 tons. the LL weighs 5 the HS weight 8, for a total of 13 tons. And with the LL you can shoot for ever. Yes, you lose 2 points of damage. Or you can go with the PPC that is 7 tons with 10 HS for a total weight of 17 tons and you get better range for the same damage.
I still think that the only ammo weapons that are any good is the GR with its 15 damage at a very good range, Or the LGR with for its grate range.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Lafeel
01/16/09 08:35 AM
157.157.28.195
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I disagree, autocannon are much better, particularly in level one play when you only have single heat sinks to dissipate the heat.
But weapon selection is a matter of personal tastes I guess *absolutely detests the lgr*
Also, by counting in the heat sinks you are deliberately skewing the results. How many all laser boats have you seen that can get away with just using the normal ten heat sinks?
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/16/09 12:38 PM
67.180.139.229
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Why do you think I am adding the weight of the heat sinks with my comparisons. If I did not everyone would complain that I was not making a fair comparison. Almost any mech can have a PPC and three med lasers with out caring about to much heat build up with the built in heat sinks. That is unless you are a fool and fired the PPC with the med lasers and ran.
Compare the minimum weight a mech can be that carries a PPC and three med lasers and a mech that carries two AC5s and a LB20 AC. Granted the mech that has the ACs can fire all of the ACs at once and run with out worrying about any heat build up.
The only energy weapon that I detest the IS ERPPC. That 15 heat is not worth the extra range.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
08/28/09 06:18 AM
72.178.75.99
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You have some valid points...suggest rebuilding it and posting your ideas on the board.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
08/28/09 09:23 PM
66.191.9.99
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Don't underestimate the LB-10X (which is still an AC-10. I wonder why people forget that) Large Lasers and LRMs for punching holes. No, you won't get in any 20-point shots, but all it takes is a little grouping from the 'Mech's larger weapons to create a hole it can exploit with SRMs and Cluster Rounds.
Were the old Atlas truly to fight against an equal, even its 20-point shots can't generally breach anything but the head, so you'll rely on doubling or even tripling up before the "crit-seeking" capability of its small rack of SRMs comes into play.
With so many hard-hitting weapon systems, the Atlas II is going to open its enemy up much faster (especially considering its vastly superior medium-range performance,) and then it has an additional crit-seeker it can bring into the game. I'll take the Atlas II against the basic Atlas in any likely engagement scenario.
Now it's true that the Atlas II isn't an Atlas...thus the II. The idea is to improve over the Atlas by filling in its performance gaps, the most noticeable of which was a lack of midrange firepower.
LB10-Xs are main weapons on assaults. They have performance comparable to a standard PPC, and in the case of the Atlas II, it's backed up by both an LRM-20 and a pair of ER Large Lasers. The Atlas II is actually remarkably well-armed. Sure, it's no Devastator, but it's not bad.
I might have preferred a Gauss Rifle, but the LB-10X is a strong performer and not a bad choice to build a 'Mech around.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
08/29/09 12:14 AM
72.178.75.99
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Good point on the LB-10X being one of the main weapons on assaults, I recall that lots of folks seemed to be in love with the LB-10X and either ERPPC and/or ER Lg Lasers. Or the ever so famous LB-10X and the Gauss Rifle combo we have all seen from some of the newer inductees to the game when they discover they can build their own mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Lafeel
08/29/09 04:17 PM
157.157.126.46
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About the only thing I don't really like with the Atlas 2 is the weapon placement, but if you consider it a new mech (which it effectively is) as opposed to a upgrade of the original, then I guess I can live with it.
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KamikazeJohnson
09/04/09 12:34 AM
142.161.158.84
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This Atlas II sounds like a decent 'Mech, but IMO it violates the entire spirit of the original Atlas, which was a blazing-giant-guns-of-death monster.
The one feature that should not be lost with ANY Atlas rework is the fact that wherever it walks on the battlefield, all except the most heavily armoured opponents find they are more urgently needed in a different corner of the field. No other weapon has the same psychological effect as the AC/20, and that effect can have a considerable impact on the battle. Therefore, IMO, if it doesn't have an AC/20 variant, it's not really an Atlas, even if it is equally or even more effective.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Bob_Richter
09/04/09 09:16 PM
66.191.9.99
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Well, there's a reason it has a II, right?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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KamikazeJohnson
09/06/09 08:36 PM
142.161.158.84
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Quote:
Well, there's a reason it has a II, right?
If you took a Rifleman, threw away the ridiculous AC/LL pairs, and instead loaded it up with a PPC, a LRM15 with 1 ton ammo, a pair of SRM6s with ammo, and 2 heat sinks, could you then just add a II to the end of it's name and call yourself justified?
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
09/06/09 08:53 PM
72.178.75.99
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I see your point...it has to be close to the original to warrant the same name, improving on something to be newer and not just a variant...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Lafeel
09/06/09 10:26 PM
157.157.185.29
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Exactly. If the Atlas 2 had been named anything other than what it was there would not be any controversy at all, and people would be singing it's praises for being the superb assault mech it is.
Instead because of the name people go "hey this isn't what I expected when I saw it's name.."
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Tripod
09/06/09 11:21 PM
192.91.75.29
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I could see a total redesign keeping the same name + a II or whatever if it was redesigned to fullfill the same role.
The fluff is the key in making a II worthy of the same name more so than weapon loadouts, placement or confuguration. (IMO)
TBA
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Karagin
09/07/09 12:05 AM
72.178.75.99
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That is also true of some of the other mechs that have come to us via MWDA or what ever the clicky game is called now. A light weight Mad Cat...a 100 ton Mad Cat, a Ryoken that gained weight etc...
Certain names of mechs invoke certain images and abilities, thus by saying something is an Atlas II, folks expect it to have a similar weapons load out to the original and be able to do more or have something better going for it.
So I agree with you guys, they should have named this mechs something else, instead of calling it an Atlas II.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
09/07/09 04:30 AM
66.191.9.99
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I don't know. If you pump the Phoenix Hawk up to 80 tons and arm it with a pair of Ultra-10s...
No, I wouldn't say that, but this is a much less severe deviation than that, and than several already in canon.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
09/07/09 04:36 AM
66.191.9.99
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Yeah. Because none of that ever happened before.
For example, the 100-ton Marauder II? Must be a MWDA thing.
This isn't that. This is a 100-ton Atlas. Same indestructable carapace. Same crawling doom. Better midrange coverage.
Sure, you lose the bubble of doom, but that was as much a failing of the original Atlas as a strength. Its weapons (if not their placement) are broadly similar, and well in line with some other Atlases in the canon.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
09/07/09 11:41 AM
72.178.75.99
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The 100 ton Maraduer was seen by a lot of folks as a move to fix the flaws of the 75 ton one. Plus it also hinted that somewhere you would find 100 ton versions of all of the mechs.
The bubble of doom is what makes the Atlas the mech it is.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
09/10/09 10:57 PM
66.191.9.99
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Quote:
The 100 ton Maraduer was seen by a lot of folks as a move to fix the flaws of the 75 ton one.
Exactly as the Atlas II is a move to fix the flaws of the original. One of those flaws was the disasterously short range of not only its primary weapon but most of its secondaries.
Quote:
The bubble of doom is what makes the Atlas the mech it is.
You can argue that a 'Mech is defined by its flaws. The Marauder was defined by being undersinked, having thin armor, and lacking jump-jets, but every variation and upgrade on the Marauder fixed one or more of these flaws, and rarely did so without removing a signature weapon or feature -- the AC/5 was popular, but the PPCs even frequently got the axe to try to bring the monster's heat under control. The Marauder II sacrificed nearly everything that made it a Marauder (retaining only a pair of PPCs and a pair of medium lasers) to try to fix these flaws. It's far more what we're talking about than the Atlas II is.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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OPER_DANG
09/18/09 02:01 PM
70.61.114.174
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I always thought the Atlas (and King Crab, etc) were meant to be more like Bosses the GM set you up against...and unless you know the weaknesses and how to exploit them you end up fleeing and saying "run away, run away" in faked Brittish accents...:)
So I can see the point on the Atlas II not fitting the iconic image, but in my experience it seems the more weapons there are to fire averages better that something hits and the "paper cuts" can add up faster than the Big Gun that misses...also it is a good tactic to have different weapons & ranges than what your opponent expected. My $0.02
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Karagin
09/18/09 02:39 PM
72.178.75.99
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And playing where you do nothing but alpha strike (aka firing everything) all the time makes for a pointless game, sure that tactic work on the computer game, mainly because the AI isn't programed to do the same, so it cycles weapons, you blast away, fun against a silicon brain, not fun when it is the only tactic some players seem to use in the board game.
No one is saying the mech is bad, just that they changed the role of the Atlas, it had the heavy hitting guns, token long range fire and was medium to short range brawler/slugger, it weeds into the fight, shrugs off the damage and boom the AC20 is the freight train that slams into you.
Death by papercuts is a great thing, BUT there are too many ways to counter it in this game, minefields, called shots (though this one may not be the easist), having your own mechs that do the same to your enemy etc...missing with the big gun means that you have shown your teeth and only a bad player will get any closer to the mech carrying something that can cripple most medium and light mechs with a single hit.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
09/19/09 07:40 AM
71.92.100.216
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Yes. Because the only kind of tactic is heat-management.
When did this become about DHS alpha-babies, exactly?
The Atlas has no medium range. Medium range is where the Atlas II shines, and it can hold its own at short range. So it doesn't have a 20-pointer. So what?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Lafeel
09/19/09 08:27 AM
157.157.185.29
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Instead it has a ten pointer which can also crit seek, and a pair of eight pointers..Yea you do have a very good point, Bob.
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Karagin
09/19/09 09:43 AM
72.178.75.99
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The AC20 is the medium range weapon as are its' medium lasers.
This is about different reason why and how the mech works in its' ranges.
The AC20 is its' trademark, the idea that it can walk into the fight, take the damage, and pretty much destroy then enemy with its' firepower. Check out the video for the Mechwarrior 5 game, the Atlas rules over the Warhammer it is facing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Venom
09/19/09 07:01 PM
207.191.218.35
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Quote:
The AC20 is its' trademark, the idea that it can walk into the fight, take the damage, and pretty much destroy then enemy with its' firepower. Check out the video for the Mechwarrior 5 game, the Atlas rules over the Warhammer it is facing.
I dunno about that. Nearly every Atlas upgrade ditches the AC for a GR. As I have said before the 'mech has grown on me. When paired with a royal King Crab the team is hell on wheels against anything the House Lords had to offer.
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Lafeel
09/19/09 10:49 PM
157.157.185.29
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Same here, my first reaction was, I'll freely admit, a "what the..", but the more I think about it the more I like it. I've even grown to respect the reasons behind where they put the weapons, which was something that got me scratching my head before.
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Karagin
09/20/09 11:16 AM
72.178.75.99
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They ditch it because the designers aka TPTB wanted to show off the new tech, plus the Gauss is considered as cool as the AC20.
Glad you like the re-made Atlas, I think will stick to the original.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
09/20/09 08:52 PM
71.92.100.216
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Quote:
The AC20 is the medium range weapon as are its' medium lasers.
Neither system reaches to medium range.
Quote:
The AC20 is its' trademark,
You've clearly confused the Atlas with the Hunchback.
Quote:
it can walk into the fight, take the damage, and pretty much destroy then enemy with its' firepower. Check out the video for the Mechwarrior 5 game, the Atlas rules over the Warhammer it is facing.
And none of that changes with the Atlas II.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
09/20/09 09:18 PM
72.178.75.99
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You have your theories on the two mechs and I have mine.
The AC20 IS the weapon that is the most feared on the Atlas, just as is on the Hunchback.
Could you define medium range for us, since I think we are not on the same page here with this. I see medium range as being something that covers the number of hexes starting at about 7 to about 12, give or take two hexes, so roughly an average of 9 being were medium range starts and ending at the 7 hex range, of course it will vary for most weapons but if you could give us what you see as being medium range then we might have a better angle on your take of the two mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Tripod
09/21/09 12:29 AM
192.91.75.30
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When talking strictly about level 1(3025) tech I DO concider 9 hexes medium. When advanced tech is used, I see 9 as more on the short end of ranges...yes, ac/20's and med's can reach 7 hexes but at what accuracy? ther are pretty feeble with that +4 range modifier...
3-9-15(18) for short/med/long range "class" weapons just does not cut it vs the is er's much less the clan stuff...
TBA
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Karagin
09/21/09 12:39 AM
72.178.75.99
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But the Atlas II wasn't made to face Clan tech, it was made to fight other Inner Sphere mechs carrying both advanced tech and common tech, aka SL and 3025 tech.
Just as the original Atlas was made to face the same weapons and tech. Neither mech is going to be doing all that great against Clan tech, more so before the changes made to the Targ/Pulse Laser deal.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
09/21/09 03:49 AM
71.92.100.216
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Quote:
The AC20 IS the weapon that is the most feared on the Atlas, just as is on the Hunchback.
The most feared, the most mocked, and the least used, coming in somewhere behind the SRM-6, and well behind the rear-mounted lasers. Less than 50% of its war-load. Good for less than ten rounds of combat. Hardly a defining feature, especially when compared with the nearly twenty tons of armor it also carries.
While on the Hunchback, the 14-ton AC/20 is not only the centerpiece of its arsenal, it's very nearly the only weapon it has. And yet, most Hunchback variations trade it out for another more versatile system.
As a defining weapon system, it fails utterly. As a defining flaw, it works beautifully, but I have already explained that defining flaws are usually the first thing designers look at when building an upgrade.
Quote:
Could you define medium range for us,
Weapons in the 3/6/9 range class are the shortest-ranged practical weapons in 3025 Battletech. They define the term "short range," such that "medium range" then begins at 10 hexes and is filled by the 5/10/15 range class. Depending on who you ask, the 6/12/18s might also be medium range. In 3025, I wouldn't say so, but in 2750 or 3050, that's absolutely true.
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since I think we are not on the same page here with this. I see medium range as being something that covers the number of hexes starting at about 7 to about 12,
Okay. In that case, the Medium Laser (and its ilk) cover at best half the described range, and only at their worst target numbers. They can hardly be said to be "medium range weapons" on that basis.
The AC/10 and LL fit the description better, and even the PPC, AC/5, and LRM are stronger contenders.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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LAMdriver
09/23/09 03:54 AM
64.147.209.78
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Personally, I think that the Atlas II is compareable to the orginal Atlas as is Skinamax porn is to interent porn. Yeah it's got some nice things but in general it's lacking the good stuff.
" The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make some other bastard die for his!"--Patton
""War is Hell. Combat is a motherfucker."---General Tommy Franks
Edited by LAMdriver (09/23/09 04:28 AM)
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Rotwang
09/24/09 05:23 PM
78.23.8.52
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Realistically speaking the Atlas should have mounted a Gauss Rifle when first designed. Given that the updated Atlas already packs one the guys who wrote the TR didn't want to go the obvious way and put a GR so they sorta came up with a big Assault mech that they dub Atlas II end of story.
In 3025, the Atlas was something big and scary. In isolation it has serious flaws. It has a single ammo based ranged weapon. It's sitting there being big and scary shouting "Snipe me ! Snipe me !"
Now how much brain damage do you need to send an asset like an Atlas out there on its own ? An Atlas needs some backup like a Warhammer, Archer, or even an Rifleman to keep the enemy from picking you to pieces at range.
It's clear when looking at the 3025 assaults that the AC/20 was considered the ultimate weapon, the only real headchopper in the game and even if it had a limited range, most people played on two maps so sooner or later the Atlas would be in range.
The Atlas II should have looked at boosting the LRM20 with artemis and extra ammo. Keep the AC/20 as a "final argument and get rid of the SRM6 and put in a PPC or large lasers. A few good tweaks here and there should make it more convincing than a complete overhaul. If you make it a full rebuild it could get nasty and still have that quaint SLDF feel of the TR2750 we all love.
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Karagin
09/24/09 06:31 PM
72.178.75.99
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I like your suggestion to improve the mech and make it more like the original. I think I will take the suggestions and modify the mech to them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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