Newtype
12/12/08 02:27 PM
207.160.205.13
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Dark Matter Cloaking Device
The dark matter cloaking device works by having dark matter panels cover (cloak) a unit/structure. While cloaked, that object cannot be tracked by radar and cannot be seen in outer space. During the End Phase of a turn, the player controlling said object equipped with a dark matter cloaking device decides whether or not to have unit/structure cloaked or uncloaked. If uncloaking or cloaking in the End Phase all of that unit's/structure's attacks have a +6 to-hit modifier in addition to all other modifiers in the following turn. While cloaked that unit/structure may not make any attacks. To determine the mass for a dark matter cloaking device simply take the mass of the unit/structure its mounted on and multiply that mass by 1% plus 10% of the total mass of that unit's/structure's mounted weapons. The cost in C-Bills of a dark matter cloaking device equals its mass multiplied by 10,000 C-Bills.
Dual Reusable Fuel Transit Drive
This type of transit drive should work by reusing the fuel in two loops. Fuel is pumped into the left and right combustion chambers. Next the fuel provides thrust for the spacecraft, four action forces numbered 1 and two reaction forces numbered 2 causing the ship to have a temporary net movement of zero. The left and right aft exhausts then move along the inner left and right aft curves of the return pipes creating two forces (numbered 3) that move the ship backwards (the left and right forces of 3 cancel each other out). The left and right exhausts then move along the aft curves return pipes and hit the right and left curves of the return pipes with forces numbered 4 - each of these two left and right forces cancel each other out and then move along the curves (their left and right forces numbered 5 cancel each other out) while their forward forces (also numbered 5) move along the curves moving the ship forwards. Then the forward moving exhausts and their forward moving forces (numbered 6) impact the forward outer return pipe curves then move forward and to the left/right putting forward and left/right forces on those curves which moves the ship forward but the left and right forces (numbered 7) cancel each other out then the left/right exhausts move right/left with forces numbered 8 pushed by the panels to and impact the left/right inner return pipe corner sides (both 8 left/right forces cancel each other out) while stopping at those corner sides and then the moving panels move the exhausts through the doorways (once the doors have slided open) back into the combustion chambers pushing the ship backwards (numbered forces 9) while forces 9 create opposite and equal reactions (forces 10) moving the ship forwards and the fuel exhausts are pushed by forces 9 back into the combustion chambers and reused and the cycle repeats itself. The midship to aft panels are pushed back into position moving the ship slightly backwards (forces 11) and aft panels when moved back to their starting position (forces 12). Forces 1 & 2 cancel each other, left and right forces 4 cancel each other, forces 3 & 5 cancel each other, forces 6 & 9 cancel each other, left and right forces 8 cancel each other, forces 11 & 12 cancel each other, but forces 7 & 10 (that move the ship forwards) aren't cancelled. To figure the mass of a dual reusable fuel transit drive take the percentage multiplier for the ship and add to it 4% before multiplying. For example a WarShip transit drive has a multiplier of 6%. 6% plus 4% equals 10%.
________forward bulkhead____________________
_____midship bulkhead_______________________
/7***__|8>__|*12*************12*|__<8***7*\
/*^*/*******|*11*|**********|11*|******\*^*|
|*^*|*******|*10*|**********|10*|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|**9*|__________|*9*|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|****|****Fuel***|***|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|*^*|=Pumps*=**|^*|*******|*^*|
|*6*|********\*1/************\1*/*******|*6*|
|***|********/*2\************/2*\*******|***|
|***|********|**|************|**|*******|***|
\***\________/**/************\**\_______/***|
\5___<4______3/**************\3___4>_____5/
________aft bulkhead_______________________
Left and right combustion chambers
Asteriks used to provide spaces.
Edited by Newtype (12/12/08 05:57 PM)
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Lafeel
12/12/08 03:44 PM
157.157.75.183
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Give it a rest with this reusable fuel transit drive crap, and go back to physics. As you clearly have no understanding of Newton's laws.
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Newtype
12/12/08 05:54 PM
207.160.205.13
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Ok I figured out what I did wrong. I only need two loops. Also, forces 9 (that move the ship backwards when the fuel is pushed back into the combustion chambers) exert opposite and equal reaction forces (10). To move the pushing panels back into position requires a small force to do so (11) making opposite and equal reaction forces (12).
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Lafeel
12/12/08 05:56 PM
157.157.75.183
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Quote:
Ok I figured out what I did wrong. I only need two loops. Also, forces 9 (that move the ship backwards when the fuel is pushed back into the combustion chambers) exert opposite and equal reaction forces (10). To move the pushing panels back into position requires a small force to do so (11) making opposite and equal reaction forces (12).
No you did not, because you still haven't gotten it into your thick skull that it won't work, period!
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Newtype
12/12/08 05:58 PM
207.160.205.13
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I edited my message again indicating what forces cancel each other out and which ones aren't cancelled. Explain why my design won't work.
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Cray
12/13/08 03:57 PM
97.97.243.184
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Quote:
Give it a rest with this reusable fuel transit drive crap, and go back to physics. As you clearly have no understanding of Newton's laws.
Lafeel, HeroChip has received some very lengthy explanations about why a closed system cannot produce thrust over the years (now approaching a decade), some of which would do a physics professor proud. It hasn't changed his mind yet. A continued argument on this topic is an exercise in futility.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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MacLeod
12/13/08 04:11 PM
98.234.140.111
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Quote:
A continued argument on this topic is an exercise in futility.
It's also a wonderful example that
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Lafeel
12/13/08 05:27 PM
157.157.75.183
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Quote:
Quote:
Give it a rest with this reusable fuel transit drive crap, and go back to physics. As you clearly have no understanding of Newton's laws.
Lafeel, HeroChip has received some very lengthy explanations about why a closed system cannot produce thrust over the years (now approaching a decade), some of which would do a physics professor proud. It hasn't changed his mind yet. A continued argument on this topic is an exercise in futility.
Noted, which is why I'm not going to say anything more on the matter. Not as if I have the engineering expertise to prove the flaws in it. (nor would he listen even if I had that expertise, as we both know)
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Zandel_Corrin
12/14/08 07:00 PM
123.2.140.247
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Hey chip... this is me being serious here...
You got a simpler explination as to what you've got going on there?
I look at yours and say WTF.... where and when is the burnt fuel exiting the craft?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Lafeel
12/14/08 07:02 PM
157.157.75.183
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Quote:
Hey chip... this is me being serious here...
You got a simpler explination as to what you've got going on there?
I look at yours and say WTF.... where and when is the burnt fuel exiting the craft?
It isn't. Which is exactly why this craft fails at Newtonian physics.
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Kovax
12/15/08 09:58 AM
75.146.193.46
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This falls squarely into the "perpetual motion machine" and "Santa Claus is real" category. By making something so absurdly complex and convoluted that it would waste 90% of its energy in frictional and other losses, it is also supposed to lose the train of thought of whoever attempts to criticize it, thereby making it perfectly viable in the designer's eyes. Did you ever think of hooking up flying reindeer to the ship; it might actually work better than this "reusable fuel" device.
These ideas are best left for a pure space fantasy game, not sci-fi. BT may not be the most realistic futuristic simulation out there by a long shot, but we don't need someone trying to compound the problems. I suspect that the idea behind all this is to get some form of tacit "permission" to use totally ridiculous "advantages" against another player, and somehow justify it by having someone here agree with it.
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/15/08 10:09 AM
205.202.120.139
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Then QUIT FEEDING THE TROLL.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/15/08 05:48 PM
123.2.140.247
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If the waste gasses are NOT exiting the vehicle then there is no thrust..... it's that simple.
don't knock the "perpetual motion machine" as that (with the help of gravity) has been proven to work.
Using water, a turbine and a pump you can generate power with no loss of motion or extra power input.... of course it will fail after a while due to wear and tear on the pump and turbine but otherwise works well.
Of course it needs to be very big to work.... only good for powering a house or similar not a moving vehicle.
As for 'Santa'.................. Miricale on 34th st anyone?
LOLZ
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/16/08 10:08 PM
24.6.54.109
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Quote:
If the waste gasses are NOT exiting the vehicle then there is no thrust..... it's that simple.
don't knock the "perpetual motion machine" as that (with the help of gravity) has been proven to work.
Using water, a turbine and a pump you can generate power with no loss of motion or extra power input.... of course it will fail after a while due to wear and tear on the pump and turbine but otherwise works well.
Of course it needs to be very big to work.... only good for powering a house or similar not a moving vehicle.
As for 'Santa'.................. Miricale on 34th st anyone?
LOLZ
Perpetual motion machines cant work because you have friction to account for. When anything moves you have waist heat that has to be compensated with new energy. With anything that uses gravity to use as a power source you need something that is falling and once it has fallen its no longer usable. The closes thing that has ever gotten to being a perpetual motion machine are devises that are powered my magnetism. Such ones that have been built are very small to keep the amount of waist heat down. The bigger the devise the more waist heat you will have to compensate for.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/16/08 10:29 PM
24.6.54.109
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What is with newtype and his stupid shields?
There is no such thing as a true vacuum in space, that area is taken up by dark matter. All dark matter is, is regular everyday matter that is between stars and galaxies that can't be weighed because its not concentrated enough to be weighed like a star or planet. In a way you can think of dark matter as an atmosphere in outer space that is so thin that you cant even register it. If I remember right its believed that 99% of matter is dark matter.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Lafeel
12/16/08 10:59 PM
157.157.75.183
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Donkey, mate, a lot of people have tried to convince him of the folly of this whole thing, and done it with far better reasoning than either you (no offense) nor I, can use, and it never fails, he ignores it.
All we can do is pretend he doesn't exist.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/17/08 05:38 PM
123.2.140.247
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Well i'm not sure if you'd call it perpetual motion but you have this:
A large water tank at the top of a pipe droping down using gravity. A turbine that will be turned by the water being dropped by the gravity. A tank and A pump at the bottom powered by the turbine pumping the water back up to the tank at the top to start the whole thing again.
This system has been proven to work and produce more power then is required to power the pump thus allowing other devices to be powered.... no fuel or other input is required except regular maintenance on the pump and eventually the turbine as well.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Kovax
12/18/08 09:38 AM
75.146.193.46
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Sorry, but the turbine and pump deal has long been proven NOT to work unless you provide some source of external power. The friction of the turbine, the pump, and water through the pipes all create losses of energy, so there is less power available than what is needed to push the water back up to the top of the tank. Granted, with a low-loss pump and turbine, you could probably use the stored kinetic energy of the elevated water to push 90% of the water back to the top, and let the 10% trickle away un-noticed. That means, with a large tank, you could recirculate most of that large volume of water 10 times or so over a period of several days before the system would start running out of water and power, which is enough to LOOK like a "perpetual motion machine".
There are other ways to capitalize on magnetic energy, which rapidly begins to de-magnetize the magnets, "salinity engines" which work on the differences of salt in two bodies of water and gradually make them the same, or gravitational energy through tidal forces, etc., but those all still require some source of external power (usually the sun) or a replacable power storage cell (magnets, etc.).
Of course, you can convert matter to energy through nuclear reactions, which is about the closest thing we've come up with to a PMM.
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Newtype
12/18/08 03:14 PM
207.160.205.13
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Quote:
Lafeel, HeroChip has received some very lengthy explanations about why a closed system cannot produce thrust over the years (now approaching a decade), some of which would do a physics professor proud. It hasn't changed his mind yet. A continued argument on this topic is an exercise in futility.
Noted, which is why I'm not going to say anything more on the matter. Not as if I have the engineering expertise to prove the flaws in it. (nor would he listen even if I had that expertise, as we both know)
Cray, call me Newtype. If you're so convinced that my reusable fuel transit drive won't work, then explain why it can't. And Lafeel I ask you to do the same I am willing to read what you have to say.
Quote:
Perpetual motion machines cant work because you have friction to account for. When anything moves you have waist heat that has to be compensated with new energy. With anything that uses gravity to use as a power source you need something that is falling and once it has fallen its no longer usable. The closes thing that has ever gotten to being a perpetual motion machine are devises that are powered my magnetism. Such ones that have been built are very small to keep the amount of waist heat down. The bigger the devise the more waist heat you will have to compensate for.
His Most Royal Highass Donkey, the friction is the gases moving against the return pipes as the gases travel through those pipes. Heat is dissipated via heat sinks. The power source is the ship's power plant (it heats up the fuel in the combustion chambers to become gases).
Quote:
If the waste gasses are NOT exiting the vehicle then there is no thrust..... it's that simple.
Zandel Corrin, The waste gases that go through the exhaust nozzles are redirected so they cancel each other's opposite and equal reactions, but when those gases impact the midship bulkhead they push the ship forward.
Take for example a fuel tank that explodes. The fuel tank (a closed container) somehow explodes perhaps due to someone leaving a robot inside that fuel tank that ignites the fuel with an electric spark and oxygen filled cannister opening. The fuel inside that fuel tank explosion explodes pushing the fuel tank pieces in many directions. But what I did in my resuable fuel transit drive design was have return pipes redirect the fuel coming out of the combustion chamber nozzles through curved return pipes. Those of you who are responding need to read what I typed earlier about the curved return pipes.
And perpetual motion machines do exist - there's a book here at the library called "Perpetual Motion: The History of an Obsession" that has perpetual motion machines listed. If you want an example of a perpetual motion machine take for example two magnets that repel each other on wheels (to reduce friction) that are rerepelled by other magnets to return to their starting positions, and while being repelled and rerepelled the inner two magnets turn gears to turn two more magnets (six magnets total in this machine) to generate electricity.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/18/08 05:47 PM
123.2.140.247
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I still have one question that needs clearing up before anything else....
Where do the waste gasses exit the ship?
They can't stay there or you get nothing cause there is no space for new gasses to travel too.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Kovax
12/19/08 10:08 AM
75.146.193.46
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Not to burst your imaginary bubble or anything, Newtype, but the process of redirecting the gases to face the ship's bulkhead will create another thrust vector as the turning gasses push against the sides of the pipe. The impact against the bulkhead will CANCEL that thrust. Net sum of all vectors = 0, ALWAYS. You only get a net thrust by expelling a small amount of mass on a vector opposite that of your intended direction, unless you use magnetic attraction or repulsion, which work one step removed but ultimately follow the same rules in the end.
In your explosion scenario, the forces EXITING the fuel tank through the return pipes will cancel the energy of the returning gasses. In short, they will also attempt to become outlets, cancel out the redirected forces, and ultimately have no effect.
The "perpetual motion" magnet wheel gizmo "eats" magnets, and rather rapidly demagnetizes them. It doesn't generate more energy than you put in, since the energy it takes to re-magnetize the magnets is greater than what it produces. It is an engine that uses magnets as "fuel", not a perpetual motion machine, and whoever wrote that book is obviously not a scientist, engineer, physicist, or anyone else with any technical qualifications; just a writer/dreamer with a lot of silly ideas as inherently unworkable as your own. There are also numerous books on Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and other concepts equally far beyond the realms of physics and reality.
You really don't get the underlying physics principles, do you? I still think that flying reindeer would be a more practical propulsion system for your ship, or at least a more believable one. Besides, the miniature would look really different from your run-of-the-mill starship.
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Newtype
12/19/08 12:24 PM
207.160.205.13
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Kovak, I understand what you're saying. I overcomplicated the previous design. Here, this revised version should work.
Revised Dual Reusable Fuel Transit Drive
This type of transit drive should work by reusing the fuel in two loops. Fuel is pumped into the left and right combustion chambers. Next the fuel provides thrust for the spacecraft, four action forces numbered 1 and two reaction forces numbered 2 causing the ship to have a temporary net movement of zero. The left and right aft exhausts then move along the inner left and right aft curves of the return pipes creating two forces (numbered 3) that move the ship forwards (the left and right forces of 3 cancel each other out). The left and right exhausts then move along the return pipes and hit the ends of the return pipes at midship bulkhead with gas forces numbered 4 moving the ship forwards. Now, the pushing panels (forces 5) move the gases left & right to where they meet gas forces 1. Next, panel forces 6 push the gases (1 & 4 gas forces) back into the combustion chambers exerting an opposite and equal reaction (forces 7) on the ship pushing it forwards. Then panel forces 6 are slowly pushed back into position by forces 8 moving the ship a little bit backwards.
Forces 1 & 2 cancel each other, forces 3 & 4 are not cancelled, left and right forces 5 cancel each other, forces 6 & 7 cancel each other, forces 8 & 9 cancel each other. If any of you want to continue explaining why this design won't work, then explain what forces cancel forces 3 & 4, otherwise please say my design can work. To figure the mass of a dual reusable fuel transit drive take the percentage multiplier for the ship and add to it 4% before multiplying. For example a WarShip transit drive has a multiplier of 6%. 6% plus 4% equals 10%.
________forward bulkhead____________________
_____midship bulkhead_______________________
|4^**__|5>__**9**|***********9***__<5|*^4*|
|*^*|*******|*8**|**********|*8*|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|*7^*|**********|^7*|*****|*^*|
|*^*|*******|**6*|__________|*6*|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|****|****Fuel***|***|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|*^*|=Pumps*=**|^*|*******|*^*|
|*^*|********\^1/***********\1^/*******|*^*|
|***|********/**\************/**\*******|***|
|***|********|**|************|**|*******|***|
\***\________/**/************\**\_______/***|
*\3___________2/**************\2_________4/
________aft bulkhead_______________________
Left and right combustion chambers
Asteriks used to provide spaces.
How do two north poles demagnetize each other when they repel each other? I thought such permanent bar magnets would stay permanent.
Edited by Newtype (12/19/08 12:55 PM)
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Kovax
12/19/08 04:46 PM
75.146.193.46
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Besides the obvious failure due to the violation of the basic principle that "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction", there is another huge problem with the design. You are attempting to put the burnt waste gasses back into the tank and call it "fuel". Sorry, but it only burns once.
In your example, the vector of the expanding gasses is changed at both 3 and 4, which will cause them to negate each other in the up/down axis, while 2 and 3 will cancel each other in a left/right axis. This will only work until the gas expands to fill the system, then it will merely "pressurize", with no net thrust effect unless you vent the gasses somehow. You also only need half the system, the left and right chambers are redundant, and will do absolutely nothing equally well, whether you have one or two.
Magnets are fine sitting there, but the idea behind a magnetic engine is that you pass the magnetic fields by each other, which causes some degradation due to the interaction where the magnetic flux lines cross. Just sitting, there is no energy gain or loss, and the system is consistent with the laws of physics. As with the above design, if nothing comes out or goes in, there is no action.
Remember: 186,000 miles per second, it's not just a good idea, it's the law.
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Newtype
12/19/08 05:53 PM
207.160.205.13
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I'm not convinced there is always an opposite and equal reaction to every action. Take for example a brick thrown at a typical brick wall - sure it'll bounce off (opposite and equal reaction), but a brick thrown at a glass window will smash its way through it (no opposite and no equal reaction) due to weak construction. The burnt waste gases placed in the combustion chambers are simply heated again to expand and push (actions) that provide thrust.
The gases at 3 do not go towards the aft part of the ship; they curve pushing the ship slightly forwards at 3 and go towards the midship bulkhead to push the midship bulkhead forwards at 4. So 3 and 4 don't cancel each other out; they're both heading towards the forward part of the ship to push it forwards. No I need both combustion chambers so when the gases are pushed left and right (5) their left and right actions cancel each other out preventing the ship from wiggling left and right.
How do magnetic lines of flux (north and opposing north lines) degrade magnetic fields?
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/19/08 11:22 PM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
Newtype said:
I'm not convinced blah blah blah Put up or shut up blah blah blah
There; I fixed your post.
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Lafeel
12/20/08 12:37 AM
157.157.75.183
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Let me put this in a way even a idiot will understand.
Newton's third law, the one mentioned there above, is not some cockamany unproved theory like the ones you hear about how the universe began, or what's at the bottom of a black hole, but a fact
Unless you are playing a game that uses some magical hand wavium technology to get around this, then you have to abide by that law, and guess what? Battletech does not have any such technology.
unsurprisingly the post above is aimed at Newtype, not PoD.
Edited by Lafeel (12/20/08 12:39 AM)
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Fang
12/20/08 07:07 AM
12.54.128.7
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Um, if a brick hits a glass window, there is an equal and opposite reaction. It is just a different reaction than the brick hitting the brick wall. It is kind of ignorant to assume that the reaction will be the same for every action across the board. If that were the case, why are my fingers not flying off my keyboard as I attempt to type this.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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Newtype
12/20/08 08:30 AM
75.52.182.110
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Rerevised Dual Reusable Fuel Transit Drive
This type of transit drive should work by reusing the fuel in two loops. Fuel is pumped into the left and right combustion chambers. Next the fuel provides thrust for the spacecraft, four action forces numbered 1 and two reaction forces numbered 2 causing the ship to have a temporary net movement of zero. The left and right aft exhausts then move along the inner left and right aft curves of the return pipes creating two forces (numbered 3) that move the ship forwards (the left and right forces of 3 cancel each other out). The left and right exhausts then move along the return pipes and hit the ends of the return pipes at midship bulkhead with gas forces numbered 4 moving the ship forwards. Now, the pushing panels (forces 5) move the gases left & right to where they reenter the combustion chambers.
Forces 1 & 2 cancel each other, forces 3 & 4 are not cancelled, left and right forces 5 cancel each other. If any of you want to continue explaining why this design won't work, then explain what forces cancel forces 3 & 4, otherwise please say my design can work. Given how that forces 2 & 3 are curved I wonder if they cancel each other out and that forces 1 & 4 aren't cancelled. To figure the mass of a dual reusable fuel transit drive take the percentage multiplier for the ship and add to it 4% before multiplying. For example a WarShip transit drive has a multiplier of 6%. 6% plus 4% equals 10%.
________forward bulkhead____________________
_____midship bulkhead_______________________
|4^**__|5>__|Lcom|*********|Rcom|__<5|*^4*|
|*^*|*******|bus*|**********|bus*|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|tion*|**********|tion*|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|cham|_________|cham|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|ber*|****Fuel***|ber*|******|*^*|
|*^*|*******|*^*|=Pumps*=**|*^*|******|*^*|
|*^*|********\^1/***********\1^/*******|*^*|
|***|********/**\************/**\*******|***|
|***|********|**|************|**|*******|***|
\***\________/**/************\**\_______/***|
*\3___________2/**************\2_________4/
________aft bulkhead_______________________
Left and right combustion chambers
Asteriks used to provide spaces.
No there's not an opposite and equal reaction when a brick smashes through a window. If there was an opposite and equal reaction, then the brick would bounce off that window in a direction opposite to which it was thrown and equal in how far it was thrown. Since it doesn't bounce off but goes through the window, Newton's third law is not entirely accurate.
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MaiShirunaiispretty
12/20/08 03:37 PM
207.160.205.13
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First, Newtype if you're reading this, then see my reply to your suicide message, pleeeeeeeease. And second, I don't know much about physics but I do believe we should give Newtype the benefit of the doubt (at least for his/her third try). I have built a model battery powered plastic box raft made out of a plastic box that uses two small electric fans, two curved plastic pipes, and a wooden block. Each of those fans blows air through a curved pipe and the air from both pipes bumps into the wooden block to move the raft forward. I wouldn't be concerned about this "rerevised reusable fuel transit drive" becoming official rules - WizKids doesn't accept fanmade rules and if they did, it would probably be considered experimental rules only given how that it's not apparently been actually made in real life.
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Lafeel
12/20/08 04:56 PM
157.157.75.183
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Give him the benefit of the doubt? Hell no. Unlike you I have actually read some of the bull crap he's written before, and I can tell you he's not improved. (and if this so called magic drive would work, it'd set new records in in efficiency)
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MaiShirunaiispretty
12/20/08 06:59 PM
207.160.205.13
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I've read his (?) posts too and others' posts also. They don't seem too farfetched as being considered "bull crap" but rather limited in physics explanation. If you can't disprove an object, then at least in theory it's provable. He's done a good job explaining this transit drive design. I'm beginning to wonder if those who can't prove the theoretically proven are just posting to increase their ranks. Helps to explain why or why not an object is theoretically possible.
Wow, those bracing maneuvers sure do come in handy when firing proximity fused precision cluster flak ammo at a Balancer LAM. Unfortunately they make my 'Mech an immobile target for that LAM. Oh well, at least I'm getting partial cover.
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Lafeel
12/20/08 08:06 PM
157.157.75.183
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What you haven't done is read all the posts on the matter, but that is hardly surprising, considering that that exchange happened on a different message board.
Suffice it to say that it has been proven, categorically, that this so called miracle drive of his is nothing more than a wet dream, and will remain so for the forseeable future.
Chip, if you want to get this sort of bs accepted, then talk to Catalyst, or go mail your senator to see if he can't repeal Newton's third law of physics. Leave the rest of us, who are perfectly fine with this game as it is, out of it
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/20/08 10:20 PM
205.202.120.139
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Heh.
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Cray
12/20/08 11:13 PM
97.97.243.184
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Quote:
Chip, if you want to get this sort of bs accepted, then talk to Catalyst
Quite a few of the current Catalyst writers were exposed to this idea in its Bop Drive incarnation and subsequently saw it in this incarnation on HMPro.com, so there's no need to talk to them again about it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Lafeel
12/20/08 11:16 PM
157.157.75.183
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Suspected as much, which is why my second suggestion was about as likely..
Personally I don't give a rat's ass what he does, I just want it to be put on record I want nothing to do with his version of BT.
Edited by Lafeel (12/20/08 11:17 PM)
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Newtype
12/21/08 01:07 PM
75.52.182.110
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Cray, if you're so convinced that my rerevised resuable fuel transit drive won't work then go ahead and tell why it won't. I've done my share of explaining. Perhaps the real reason why you won't accept that it works is because you're biased in favor of the Clans and don't want this design of mine to be desired by those that are Inner Sphere/Periphery because it would give them a significant advantage over the Clans. Cray and anyone else who believes my design won't work, I'll give you till January 1st to tell why my design won't work in full detail. If you can't do that, then just admit my design can work as I've described.
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Kovax
12/22/08 11:57 AM
75.146.193.46
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About this:
"I'm not convinced there is always an opposite and equal reaction to every action. Take for example a brick thrown at a typical brick wall - sure it'll bounce off (opposite and equal reaction), but a brick thrown at a glass window will smash its way through it (no opposite and no equal reaction) due to weak construction. The burnt waste gases placed in the combustion chambers are simply heated again to expand and push (actions) that provide thrust." - Newtype
First, there is the initial action, which is to throw the brick. Imparting energy to the brick causes a backward thrust of the thrower, which needs to be cancelled by expending muscle power in the legs to maintain one's balance, tansferring a small amount of backward motion to the planet upon which you stand, to offset the thrust imparted to the brick.
In case 1, the brick hits the wall, and rebounds. This imparts energy to the wall (and forward thrust to whatever planet the wall is connected to, cancelling the backward thrust applied to the planet when the brick was propelled forward), while some of it is converted into heat, some into sound, and some portion of the remainder is transferred back to the brick, causing it to bounce off in the other direction, which also adds to the accelleration of the wall and planet. This small additional force will again be cancelled by the horizontal vector of the impact of the brick with the ground not far from the wall.
In case 2, the brick hits the glass, transferring some of its energy to the glass, which flys away forward in tiny pieces. The brick, moving at a lower velocity due to the loss of energy upon impact, eventually strikes the ground, again transferring energy to the impacted planetary surface, some of which becomes heat, some sound, etc.
In either case, energy has been applied from outside the system to create the initial movement, and energy escapes the system in the forms of heat and sound. The sum of all vectors still equals 0, but it is very difficult to figure out all of the various forms of energy inputs and outputs in this case.
If you're re-heating the waste gasses in your combustion chamber, that has to be done by burning FRESH fuel. You're NOT going to get the old gasses to re-burn a second time. Your chemistry knowledge seems to suffer from the same curious affliction as your understanding of physics.
Note: contrary to popular belief, wishing something has no effect on its existence or non-existence in the real world.
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Newtype
12/22/08 12:08 PM
207.160.205.13
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Reheated (not reburnt) gases in combustion chambers can be used again for thrust. Think of a hot air balloon that continuously reheats the air gases in it to provide lift. I provided a diagram and total telling of the forces involved for the rerevised resuable fuel transit drive. By the way, this transit drive works every other turn since the panels 5 have to be repositioned to their starting positions during the alternating turns the combustion chambers are not reheating the gases.
Ok, regarding my rerevised reusable fuel transit drive explain to me which forces cancel: forces1, forces2, forces3 (the bottom force 4 is the other force 3), and forces4
Edited by Newtype (12/23/08 12:02 PM)
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Venom
12/24/08 02:33 PM
173.20.187.162
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The action that you speak of is YOU THROWING THE BRICK! To make it simpler to understand, imagine that you are in a little red wagon with a pile of bricks on a flat street. Throw a brick. The brick will go one way and the wagon will go the other. This is your equal and opposite reacton. Continue to throw bricks at a decent rate and you will accelerate because you are applying more "thrust" and your mass is decreasing. This is the simplified explanation to rocket motors.
Now attach a board verticaly to the same wagon of bricks. Throw a brick at the board. Watch as it comes back and hits you in the face. The force of you throwing the brick is cancelled by the brick hitting the board(though the impact of the brick to your face may impart some motion). This is the simplified explanation of why your system will not work.
Another way of looking at it is this(I get the feeling you need to be told things multiple times very simply) What happens when you take a tube, closed at one end and fill it with a low explosive? You have a rocket. Now what happens when you take that same tube and cap the other end? You have a bomb!
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Cray
12/24/08 04:14 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
The action that you speak of is YOU THROWING THE BRICK!
Venom, HeroChip was getting explanations of this sort about 9 years ago on rec.games.mecha when he was trying to sell a similar reactionless drive concept. He's received the explanations over and over as he reinvents this "enclosed rocket" (or enclosed sails, or recycling rocket, or Bop Drive).
And Magnet Drives
And then there was his famous declaration on rec.games.mecha, 12.19.1999:
"If the ship was sealed shut (sails and all are inside) and an artificial wind created inside the pushes toward and onto the sail, then the ship can move too." --HEROChip
After 9 years, if he hasn't gotten it, he's not going to get it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Newtype
12/26/08 11:24 AM
207.160.205.13
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So if there really is an opposite and equal reaction for every action does this mean that the sun revolves around the Earth everytime the Earth revolves around the sun?
Quote:
In case 2, the brick hits the glass, transferring some of its energy to the glass, which flys away forward in tiny pieces. The brick, moving at a lower velocity due to the loss of energy upon impact, eventually strikes the ground, again transferring energy to the impacted planetary surface, some of which becomes heat, some sound, etc.
Apparently there are multiple reactions (tiny pieces of glass) when the brick strikes the glass rather than an opposite and equal reaction, and there are multiple reactions (heat, sound, etc.) when the brick strikes the ground rather than an opposite and equal reaction.
Quote:
"If the ship was sealed shut (sails and all are inside) and an artificial wind created inside the pushes toward and onto the sail, then the ship can move too." --HEROChip
One artificial wind will bounce off the midship bulkhead and hit the aft bulkhead resulting net movement of zero. But why does MaiShirunaiispretty's plastic covred raft work? It uses two electric fans that's rotor shafts are positioned in opposite and equal directions, two curved pipes in which one curved pipe is curved towards the left and one is curved to the right, and a wooden board facing both ends of those two pipes (all components covered up). The fans cancel out each other's opposite and equal reaction the curves' actions cancel out the curves' opposite and equal reactions but the wooden block has actions that provide forward movement that are not cancelled out.
What cancels out forces 1, 2, 3, and 4 of my rerevised reusable fuel transit drive?
Edited by Newtype (12/26/08 12:12 PM)
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MaiShirunaiispretty
12/29/08 11:26 AM
207.160.205.13
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If every action has an opposite and equal reaction, then Hurricane Katrina would not have knocked over the levees in New Orleans and the airplanes that attacked the U.S. on 9/11 would not have crashed into the World Trade Center towers. Face it, Newton was wrong when he said that every action has an opposite and equal reaction.
Wow, those bracing maneuvers sure do come in handy when firing proximity fused precision cluster flak ammo at a Balancer LAM. Unfortunately they make my 'Mech an immobile target for that LAM. Oh well, at least I'm getting partial cover.
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Fang
12/29/08 12:31 PM
12.54.128.7
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You guys are so freakin stupid. nuff said.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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Cray
12/29/08 02:23 PM
68.205.198.74
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Quote:
You guys are so freakin stupid. nuff said.
There's only one guy at work here - MaiShirunaiispretty is a NewType/HeroChip sock puppet.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Fang
12/29/08 02:28 PM
12.54.128.7
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And how does a hot air ballon continually reheat those gases? BY EXPENDING MORE FUEL! what do you think powers the flame in the basket that reheats the air? Like I said, You are just being stubborn and stupid. Let it go, it doesn't work. Buh Bye.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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Newtype
12/29/08 02:46 PM
207.160.205.13
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I've noticed that only "babble" replies are being replies now by Cray and other doubters. Obviously these doubters don't have the intelligence to understand actions and reactions.
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MacLeod
12/29/08 04:07 PM
76.126.19.26
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Let's put it this way, Newtype/Maiwhateverthehell.
Action: You troll. Poorly, I might add - a 4/10 at best.
Reaction: We rage. Rather rationally, but we've always been a relatively well-tempered, clean-spoken board.
But even this isn't even "opposite and equal," because if all things were equal, one of us would have banned your ass for trolling about a month ago.
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Lafeel
12/29/08 05:58 PM
157.157.75.183
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Mac, remember, attack the post, not the poster, therein lies the difference between a discussion and a flame war.
To be honest I'm not sure what can be said. Chip's clearly shown a complete and utter unwillingness to listen to our points on the matter..And if this was another messageboard I'm a member of (NationStates) he would be waking up in a dumpster right about now wondering why the board refuses to recognize his ip as valid..
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MacLeod
12/29/08 08:06 PM
12.116.26.222
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My apologies for sinking low with that last post. I've been a member here for over six years - admittedly, not contributing for much of that - and in all that time I have never seen someone like Chip show up and rain on everyone's parade like this. I agree, Lafeel - any other forum I frequent would have kicked him out a long time ago, some with tact and decorum and others with quite the entertaining public execution. Asshattery, in my opinion, just shouldn't be tolerated.
Hm. I guess my finally succumbing to his bait makes him a pretty decent troll. I guess I'd give him a 6/10, maybe a 6.5. I'd prefer it not to continue, though.
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Kovax
12/30/08 09:54 AM
75.146.193.46
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I'll give him one positive point: he does keep this otherwise rather lifeless board somewhat active with his continuous barrage of absolutely loony ideas, and with the rebuttals of those who actually have more than an occasional passing glance at reality.
That said, I'm not going to argue any more of these points, because it's painfully obvious that you can't argue logic with someone to whom logic is "irrelevant".
I'm sharply reminded of the one remark that Adolph Hitler is supposed to have made, when the shattered German army was in full retreat from a massive Soviet offensive, and his generals were trying to get permission to fall back to a more defensible position. Hitler ordered a full counter-attack, using a number of forces and assets which no longer existed. When his generals tried to explain that the order was impossible to carry out under the circumstances, Hitler exclaimed "You don't understand the spirit of my idea".
The same delusional thinking seems to be at work here, and arguing the point goes nowhere, since physics (and reality in general) are all "secondary" to the self-proclaimed "genius" of the inventor.
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KitK
12/30/08 10:54 AM
216.197.183.253
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That is an interesting and appropriate WWII story. So, having this matter finally settled, I will blatantly put in a plug for the 2008 Battlemech Trade and Armaments Show thread, and optimistically expect that everyone who posted in this thread will post up some mechs for the show.
KK
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GiovanniBlasini
12/31/08 12:50 AM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
I edited my message again indicating what forces cancel each other out and which ones aren't cancelled. Explain why my design won't work.
Your understanding of physics and, well, pretty much everything else, combined with an absolute inability to accept when you're wrong?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Newtype
01/02/09 11:29 AM
207.160.205.13
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Quote:
To be honest I'm not sure what can be said. Chip's clearly shown a complete and utter unwillingness to listen to our points on the matter..And if this was another messageboard I'm a member of (NationStates) he would be waking up in a dumpster right about now wondering why the board refuses to recognize his ip as valid..
I haven't been utterly and unwilling to listen. I did recognize that my first and second reusable fuel transit drive designs were overcomplicated and so I simplified them into the third design (the rerevised fuel transit drive design) that is. I explained in full detail how that third design is suposed to work. Did I see an explanation that explains in full detail how my design couldn't work. No, there wasn't such an explanation. Kovak, and many others on this website (who dislike LAMs I'll point out) dislike my designs because they can give the IS a significant advantage over the Clans. They refuse to explain why a brick thrown at a glass window doesn't bounce off, why the sun doesn't revolve around Earth, why the wingstubes didn't bounce off the WTC towers on 9/11, and why the water from Hurricane Katrina didn't bounce of the levees. Obviously beyond a shadow of a doubt there is not always an opposite and equal reaction for every action. Once the Federation takes control, they'll change their minds.
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Prince_of_Darkness
01/10/09 01:32 AM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
I haven't been utterly and unwilling to listen. I did recognize that my first and second reusable fuel transit drive designs were overcomplicated and so I simplified them into the third design (the rerevised fuel transit drive design) that is. I explained in full detail how that third design is suposed to work. Did I see an explanation that explains in full detail how my design couldn't work. No, there wasn't such an explanation. Kovak, and many others on this website (who dislike LAMs I'll point out) dislike my designs because they can give the IS a significant advantage over the Clans. They refuse to explain why a brick thrown at a glass window doesn't bounce off, why the sun doesn't revolve around Earth, why the wingstubes didn't bounce off the WTC towers on 9/11, and why the water from Hurricane Katrina didn't bounce of the levees. Obviously beyond a shadow of a doubt there is not always an opposite and equal reaction for every action. Once the Federation takes control, they'll change their minds.
I wonder how long it will take for you to get banned.
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Kovax
01/12/09 10:31 AM
75.146.193.46
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To clarify a couple of (probably pointless) points, the sun and the earth revolve around a common axis, based on the centerpoint of their masses. Since the earth's mass is almost (but not entirely) irrelevant in comparison, the balance point is still well inside the sun, but not at its center.
Objects may or may not bounce off what they hit, but ultimately they impart energy to whatever it is that they contact, which is equal and opposite to the change in kinetic energy of the striking object. Those flying glass shards take on some of the energy of the brick, and the brick reduces speed as an equal and opposite reaction. There are many forms that the imparted energy can take (heat, sound), only one of which is motion.
It is impossible to offer an explanation to someone who doesn't believe in the laws of physics, by using those same laws of physics.
The whole point behind the "reusable fuel" idea is silly. Once you've burned the fuel, you can't return it to the fuel tank and then re-burn it. It isn't fuel anymore. Newtype's cop-out answer was to re-heat the spent fuel back into gasses. Using what? You need fresh fuel or energy input of some sort to re-heat the spent fuel, so in effect you haven't saved anything. Also, once the burned gasses expand and completely fill the enclosed space, all you are doing by burning more is increasing the pressure in the system, since there's nowhere for it to go. The gasses won't readily turn back into a liquid unless you cool them, which requires a net loss of energy from the system somehow. When Newtype reaches the moon by lifting himself off the ground by his own shoelaces (and not in one of his "out of body" experiences), then I'll admit I have to reconsider this goofy fuel thing.
BTW - isn't there something in the forum rules about people like Newtype/Maisomethingorotherispretty or whoever posting under an alias with the intent to mislead other forum readers?
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Prince_of_Darkness
01/12/09 11:10 AM
205.202.120.139
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The moderator has been slacking off.
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Fang
01/12/09 12:44 PM
12.54.128.7
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Please please PLEASE stop responding this thread. maybe it will die out if left unfed.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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Newtype
01/12/09 08:32 PM
207.160.205.13
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Energy of an object equals the mass of that object multiplied by the square of the speed of light. Since a brick that bashes its way through a window doesn't bounce off that window it's obvious that glass has insufficient energy to make that brick bounce off that glass. Therefore the potential energy of that glass doesn't exert an "opposite and equal reaction" on that brick.
I do beilieve in Newton's first and second laws because I currently can't find any way to disprove those two laws.
As for gasses going back into the combustion chambers I've explained that: the curved return pipes and push panels have sufficient resiliency to make those gasses return. Once they return they are reheated again like air gasses in a hot air balloon. Just as the hot air gasses in a hot air balloon push the balloon upwards the hot gasses in the combustion chamber push the ship forwards but the gasses that go out the combustion chambers through the exhaust nozzles push the ship backwards. Initially that's a net movement of zero but when the gasses that go out the exhaust nozzles get move through the return pipes towards the midship bulkhead and that's when they push the ship forwards again. After that, the gasses are pushed by panels (5) back into the combustion chambers and the process repeats itself.
As I've said earlier there's been a large amount of Clan bias amongst the CBT community. I'd say that explains why my designs (the rerevised reusable fuel transit drive and dark matter cloaking device) are responded to with such disdain. Why is there so much disdain? Because these two designs provide Inner Sphere and Periphery units with a unique advantage over Clan units. Go ahead, Clan players, call me "dishonorable". Have your Clan units when they fight mine issue dezgra points, Clan units when they fight mine will still be defeated.
Edited by Newtype (01/12/09 08:51 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
01/13/09 05:57 PM
123.2.140.247
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Quote:
As for gasses going back into the combustion chambers I've explained that: the curved return pipes and push panels have sufficient resiliency to make those gasses return. Once they return they are reheated again like air gasses in a hot air balloon. Just as the hot air gasses in a hot air balloon push the balloon upwards the hot gasses in the combustion chamber push the ship forwards
ok here are your main two problems.....
1} hot gasses ONLY provide movement to a hot air baloon because it's IN atmosphere.... AND because it's adding extra hot air from outside the balloon all the time... this cannot work outside of an atmosphere.
2} Your understanding of movement.... your example is wrong... see my description below...
***
OK combustion chamber mixes fuel {F} and Oxygen {O} and an ignition source {I} to produce an explosion of hot gasses and fire (this hot gass is NOT oxygen).
Waste gasses are vented from chamber via exit nozzels producing forward movement.
Now that's a normal rocket like propulsion system (simplified but still true)
***
*!*
Now YOUR system has some form of fully enclosed 'exit' system where the gasses will strike a backboard of some form and be pushed through pipes.... this cancells out the forward thrust.
Now the gasses go up to strike a midship bulkhead or something in your opinion causeing thrust forward... and this works IF the gasses are then released into space.....
But you send them back to the combustion chamber and that's where you get problems..... (and even if you send them next to but not in the chamber you still have problems.
*!*!*!*!*!*
1st} you are replacing the oxygen with non oxygen so you get no combustion and thus no new gasses.... net value of no thrust and waste of time.
2nd} this is the big one.... hot gasses take up more space then non hot gasses.... even if your not stopping the combustion process then you run out of space for your gasses and eventully after going no where your ship explodes.
3rd} I was gonna say even if you could get passed those two.... but that second one can only be solved by venting gasses from the ship and thus producing thrust and thus creating a 'normal' rocket.... so i guess that's it.....
as you can see... you idea may be creative but it's still just plain not going to work due in most part to your complete lack of understanding of reality....
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Newtype
01/17/09 12:36 PM
207.160.205.13
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I have miscalculated my rerevised reusable fuel transit drive exhaust methods. When the gas molecules are heated they go radially in different directions. So each time the gas particles go exit the combustion chambers they leave behind a portion of gas particles in the combustion chambers until there's not much remaining pushing in many different directions - this won't provide sufficient thrust. This rerevised transit drive therefore won't work. Still the dark matter cloaking device will work to some extent because as a ship that's cloaked with such a device coasts (nonacceleration movement due to lack of sufficient gravity to slow ship down) towards a target, the dark matter cloaking device will provide concealment. I prefer to have overwhelming force when I attack anyways (I prefer to outnumber, outgun, outarmor, outspeed, etc.) and I've got control of Clan units so that's ok. Perhaps I'll discover a means to have waste gasses exit the ship through dark matter cloaking device vent pipes as waste heat like a toaster giving off heat. That would show up on IR sensors at 50Megameters max range. This new rerevised transit drive would need to continuously burn fuel to replenish fuel already burnt.
Edited by Newtype (01/17/09 12:59 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
01/18/09 05:33 PM
123.2.140.247
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You know in a long winded sort of way you just excepted logic........
hmmm.......
RUN!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!! THE APOCOLYPSE IS COMMING!!!!!
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Kovax
01/19/09 09:54 AM
75.146.193.46
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I strongly resent insinuations that have been made by Newtype about me having a "pro-Clan" bias. As anyone who has played BT against me would agree, calling me "pro-Clan" is about the same as calling Dr. Martin Luther King a "white supremacist".
Your charges are not only unfounded, they are insulting.
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Newtype
01/20/09 12:06 PM
207.160.205.13
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Ok, I've designed a newer version of this transit drive. This transit drive design I'll call the Four Combustion Chamber Ushaped Reusable Fuel Transit Drive. What happens is that two combustion chambers are next to each other at middle of U in which each of their exhaust nozzles are pointing towards a curve of the U and are in opposite and equal directions. At the end of each half of the U and adjacent to midship bulkhead is a combustion chamber in which its exhaust nozzle is adjacent to said end U piece (exhaust nozzle is pointing towards a curve) and the end of adjacent combustion chamber is next to midship bulkhead. Extending from left U middle combustion chamber exhaust nozzle to left U end combustion chamber's exhaust nozzle is the left half U slidetrack, and extending from right U middle combustion chamber exhaust nozzle to right U end combustion chamber's exhaust nozzle is the right half U slidetrack. What happens is that each of the middle U combustion chambers are heated and filled with fuel & oxygen - that makes heated gasses in each of the middle U combustion chambers. Gasses exit through the middle U exhaust nozzles and each left and right heated gas pushes a doublecone ended shaped ball along a half U slide track towards and into respective left and right end U exhaust nozzles which pushes the spacecraft forwards (only one end of a doublecone shaped ball enter an end U exhaust nozzle, not mid U gasses). Next, fuel & oxygen are heated up in end U combustion chambers resulting in fuelgasses that exit end U exhaust nozzles moving spacecraft forward again (two hexes forward for spacecraft) and pushing doublecone shaped balls back to mid U exhaust nozzles (mid U gasses go through mid U exhaust nozzles into mid U combustion chambers) and thus the two left gasses cancel out the right gasses lateral movements and vice versa. Then mid U combustion chamber gasses are reheated and exit through mid U exhaust nozzles pushing doublecone shaped ball and end U gasses towards and into end U exhaust nozzles (end U gasses go back into end U combustion chambers pushing ship forwards) and mid U gasses push ship forwards too. End U combustion chambers heat end U gasses again (those gasses exit through end U exhaust nozzles) pushing doublecone shaped balls and mid U gasses back to mid U exhaust nozzles and mid U combustion chambers. And then the process repeats itself. So that doublecone shaped ball & gasses move sufficient overpowering heat is done in combustion chambers. So that doublecone shaped balls don't inflict damage on exhaust nozzles, durable springs are used to bounce doublecone shaped balls off of exhaust nozzles.
Edited by Newtype (01/20/09 12:31 PM)
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Newtype
01/23/09 05:08 PM
207.160.205.13
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Also, the gasses that exit through the exhaust nozzles can push levers (located on the outer parts of the slidetrack tunnel U halves) that can pull levers to push gasses in the combustion chambers so they exit through the exhaust nozzles. I know this looks difficult to read but it can work in theory.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/23/09 05:13 PM
65.91.55.207
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No it cant. You just beating a dead dog with this.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Newtype
01/24/09 04:30 PM
207.160.205.13
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Yes it can. It's just very difficult to explain because there's so many parts involved. Okay it's the levers that are moved that push panels that push gasses out exhaust nozzles.
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GiovanniBlasini
01/26/09 01:57 AM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
Yes it can. It's just very difficult to explain because there's so many parts involved. Okay it's the levers that are moved that push panels that push gasses out exhaust nozzles.
Except, of course, that perpetual motion machines don't work, and that you're in flagrant violation of physical principles that have been proven to be reliable time and again.
But, then, you also believe that Melissa Steiner, a fictional character, tried to psychically contact you, which kind of says a lot right there.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Kovax
01/26/09 09:45 AM
75.146.193.46
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If you make the levers a little longer, maybe they can be used to "row" the spaceship. That would violate DIFFERENT physical principles, but wouldn't be any less effective than what you propose.
Rather than bounce those "doublecone shaped balls" off the exhaust nozzles, try bouncing them off your head and see if that alters your understanding of your own design.
If you really want to get complicated, you could have your fictional psychic Melissa Steiner move the ship by sheer telepatic power.....
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Newtype
01/26/09 11:19 AM
207.160.205.13
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There are springs attached to each doublecone shaped ball that can bounce those balls off plates attached to the exhaust nozzles. I know my design sounds very difficult to explain but in theory it could work.
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Fang
01/26/09 11:49 AM
12.54.128.7
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If you really want to get complicated, you could have your fictional psychic Melissa Steiner move the ship by sheer telepatic power.....
Melissa Steiner is an Astropath?!? For the Emperor! Wait...wrong game universe.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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GiovanniBlasini
01/27/09 06:44 PM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
There are springs attached to each doublecone shaped ball that can bounce those balls off plates attached to the exhaust nozzles. I know my design sounds very difficult to explain but in theory it could work.
No, it won't, because it violates some very long-standing, well-established, repeatedly verified principles of physics, while relying on repeatedly-proven-to-be-horribly-horribly-wrong perpetual motion ideas that just don't work.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Lafeel
01/27/09 07:29 PM
157.157.28.195
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Quote:
If you really want to get complicated, you could have your fictional psychic Melissa Steiner move the ship by sheer telepatic power.....
Melissa Steiner is an Astropath?!? For the Emperor! Wait...wrong game universe.
Would actually do wonders for simplifying the design..And might actually make it more realistic too. 
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Newtype
01/29/09 08:29 PM
207.160.205.13
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How about modifying rerevised reusable fuel transit drive so it laterally positions exhausts into dark matter boxes and then laterally deploys those boxes out of the spacecraft? Then rerevised reusable fuel transit drive uses fuel for next thrust & dark matter box exiting and so on? So basically left and right forces move fuel exhaust into dark matter boxes and laterally push those boxes out of the spacecraft through tunnels pointed towards the spacecraft's "belly". This way cloaking is maintained and thrust of spacecraft happens.
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Prince_of_Darkness
01/30/09 11:54 AM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
If you really want to get complicated, you could have your fictional psychic Melissa Steiner move the ship by sheer telepatic power.....
Melissa Steiner is an Astropath?!? For the Emperor! Wait...wrong game universe.
Shhhhhhhss...don't say that, or you will just give him ideas  !
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GiovanniBlasini
01/31/09 07:42 AM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
How about modifying rerevised reusable fuel transit drive so it laterally positions exhausts into dark matter boxes and then laterally deploys those boxes out of the spacecraft? Then rerevised reusable fuel transit drive uses fuel for next thrust & dark matter box exiting and so on? So basically left and right forces move fuel exhaust into dark matter boxes and laterally push those boxes out of the spacecraft through tunnels pointed towards the spacecraft's "belly". This way cloaking is maintained and thrust of spacecraft happens.
Define dark matter.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Newtype
01/31/09 05:48 PM
207.160.205.13
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Dark matter is matter that does not absorb, reflect, or give off light. Very useful to avoid visual and radar detections.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
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Zandel_Corrin
02/01/09 05:57 PM
123.2.140.247
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you do realise that wikipedia is not a credible source right?
Anyone can write anything there and anyone can varify it....
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Lafeel
02/01/09 07:46 PM
157.157.28.195
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Not to mention the fact that the very existence of this so called "dark matter" is currently a un proven theory, not a fact.
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Fang
02/02/09 08:09 AM
12.54.128.7
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What? If it's on the internet, it must be true, right? right?!?!
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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Prince_of_Darkness
02/02/09 10:42 AM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
Dark matter is matter that does not absorb, reflect, or give off light. Very useful to avoid visual and radar detections.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
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Zandel_Corrin
02/02/09 05:34 PM
123.2.140.247
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Nice PoD
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/04/09 03:33 PM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
Dark matter is matter that does not absorb, reflect, or give off light. Very useful to avoid visual and radar detections.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
Unlike the inside of your head, space in not a complete void. Dark matter is just the very small particles that take up space between solar systems and galaxies. Its so spreed out that its not possible to detect other than it affects the entire universes gravity. Its believed that all most all of dark matter is somewhere between Hydrogen and Iron.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Prince_of_Darkness
02/09/09 10:19 PM
205.202.120.139
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Kovax
02/10/09 10:14 AM
75.146.193.46
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I was somehow under the impression that a small but significant percentage of "dark matter" consisted of "degenerate matter": incomplete atoms, broken nuclei, and other stray sub-atomic particles, along with a larger number of hydrogen atoms and ions, and an even tinier proportion of helium and higher order atoms and ions. Its properties are partly the result of the degenerate particles not behaving like normal atoms, and the remainder from the fact that it's 99.999999.....% empty space.
Speaking of "degenerate matters", Newtype's drive is supposed to emit this stuff, which is essentially "mostly nothing", a term which also describes the scientific foundation of his idea.
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Newtype
02/10/09 11:34 AM
207.160.205.13
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The rerevised reusable fuel transit drive (design #3) results in the gasses pushing against the front part of the combustion chambers. In theory this could provide for thrust but there's no way the heat can escape; the spacecraft would melt itself to pieces.
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Prince_of_Darkness
02/10/09 01:36 PM
205.202.120.139
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Toscotto
02/11/09 09:36 PM
67.212.96.108
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normally i dont flame. but seriously i think it was your brain that mellted.
and curse you for sucking me in and slyly tricking me into actually reading this thread.
then again maybe you are right and newton was wrong.
nah nevermind- you're just a tool.
The question is not how far, the question is do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as needed?
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Newtype
02/12/09 09:42 PM
207.160.205.13
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Quote:
To clarify a couple of (probably pointless) points, the sun and the earth revolve around a common axis, based on the centerpoint of their masses. Since the earth's mass is almost (but not entirely) irrelevant in comparison, the balance point is still well inside the sun, but not at its center.
Really? And what about the asteroids in the asteroid belt (the ring of asteroids around the sun)? Do they each revolve around a common axis along with the sun?
Also, since the rerevised reusable fuel transit drive requires a way to get that heat out of the combustion chambers to keep them from melting, there'd have to be a heat exchanger system like a super heat sink pump. And since as a heat sink pump gets bigger the amount of suface area gets slowly bigger (just not as much as if there were two heat sink pumps because two adjacent heat sink pumps don't need two adjacent surface areas - they only need one adjacent surface area). Thus a really big heat sink in kilotons could hopefully dissipate the heat in the combustion chambers. So the rerevised reusable fuel transit drive could in theory work.
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Newtype
02/21/09 03:39 PM
207.160.205.13
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Apparently the rerevised reusable fuel transit drive won't work due to engine heat problems. Oh well.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/23/09 08:31 AM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
Apparently the rerevised reusable fuel transit drive won't work due to engine heat problems. Oh well.
No, it wont work because its stupid and brakes all reality. Well not that BT is grounded in reality, but that is not the point. The real point is that everyone is laughing AT you and is not laughing WITH you.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Newtype
03/10/09 11:51 AM
207.160.205.13
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In my previous post I wasn't referring to a fusion transit drive (where magnetic fields trap the exhaust preventing them from going through return pipes) but rather an arcjet transit drive.
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MaiShirunaiispretty
03/10/09 12:43 PM
207.160.205.13
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Like I said, give Newtype the benefit of the doubt. His arcjet revised reusable fuel transit drive won't be able to keep pace with a fusion transit drive. These arcjet drives of his would only be useful as mobile bombs in which they'd surround the opposing fusion powered ship to attack it.
Wow, those bracing maneuvers sure do come in handy when firing proximity fused precision cluster flak ammo at a Balancer LAM. Unfortunately they make my 'Mech an immobile target for that LAM. Oh well, at least I'm getting partial cover.
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Fang
03/10/09 02:53 PM
12.54.128.7
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you do realize we know that you and newtype are one and the same, right? Check you IP addy next time.
One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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Zandel_Corrin
03/10/09 10:50 PM
123.2.140.247
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Fang: 3
Newtype / MaiShirunaiispretty: 0!
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Newtype
03/13/09 11:25 AM
207.160.205.13
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Fang, the IP is the same, but MaiShirunaiispretty and I are not the same person. The computers we use are at library that have the same IP. There's about 20 computers at this library alone that have the same IP and more computers at other MidContinent Public Libraries have the same IP too.
Someone said earlier that same poled magnetic fields that come in contact with each other weaken each other. So does that mean that different poled magnetic fields that come in contact with each other strengthen each other?
I suppose I could get the revised reusable transit drive to work: all I have to do is "discover" an element that is very heat resistant (in the hundreds of millions) and is easy enough to cut. Aluminum is stronger physicalwise than glass but is weaker meltingwise than glass.
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GiovanniBlasini
03/13/09 03:53 PM
70.0.101.156
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Quote:
Fang, the IP is the same, but MaiShirunaiispretty and I are not the same person. The computers we use are at library that have the same IP.
And when your IPs matched and were to an AT&T subscriber that wasn't the aforementioned public library?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Newtype
03/14/09 05:00 PM
207.160.205.13
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If that IP is AT&T that means these public libraries are AT&T subscribers.
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GiovanniBlasini
03/14/09 06:54 PM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
If that IP is AT&T that means these public libraries are AT&T subscribers.
I wasn't referring to the library's IP address.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Newtype
03/17/09 07:00 PM
207.160.205.13
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Then what IP address are you referring to?
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GiovanniBlasini
03/17/09 08:09 PM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
Then what IP address are you referring to?
The one you both posted from that is on AT&T's network that isn't assigned to the library.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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MaiShirunaiispretty
03/20/09 12:28 PM
207.160.205.13
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IP# please? I've been using just the library computer here to post to Sarna.net. Also, Newtype, LosTech LostTech Prospector life path could be used to discover that "new" element in orbit of Rim Collection worlds as "new element" asteroids along with dark matter.
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Newtype
03/21/09 05:42 PM
207.160.205.13
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Thanks MaiShirunaiispretty.
Now let's see, so for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, eh? That means that the opposite and equal reaction of an opposite and equal reaction is an action. That indicates that the Earth (as well as the rest of the universe) can be in only two opposing (opposite) states of existing (actions) at a time. They would be equal in size, range, shape, etc. but moving in opposite vectors. That's nothing more than a chain reaction of an action causing an opposite and equal reaction causing action causing opposite and equal reaction and so on.
If there really is an opposite and equal reaction for every action in which this chain reaction of only two types of existences (actions and opposite and equal reactions), then why is it that there's so much variety on Earth since there's so many different (unequal) existing (actions) of:
*trees such as apple, orange, and pear trees
*vegetables such as tomatoes, lettuce, carrots
*human beings such as Caucasians, Asians, Hispanics, Middle Easterners, Africans, Polynesians
*different colors of a rainbow that are red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indio, violet
*flowers such as roses, rafflesias, goldfields,
Some say the above have opposite and equal reactions. They don't. Some are tall, some are short, some are very wide, some are very thin, some are average, some die young, some die old, some die middle age, some die at birth.
In Webster's Third New International Dictionary, look on p. 766 to 767 for definitons of "equal" and on p. 1583 for definition of "opposite".
Edited by Newtype (03/21/09 05:49 PM)
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GiovanniBlasini
03/21/09 10:10 PM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
IP# please? I've been using just the library computer here to post to Sarna.net. Also, Newtype, LosTech LostTech Prospector life path could be used to discover that "new" element in orbit of Rim Collection worlds as "new element" asteroids along with dark matter.
Didn't bother writing it down. It was from back when you first started posting. I was more amused by the obvious sockpuppetry, and went about the rest of my day.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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GiovanniBlasini
03/21/09 10:12 PM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
Thanks MaiShirunaiispretty.
Now let's see, so for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, eh?
Yes.
Quote:
That means that the opposite and equal reaction of an opposite and equal reaction is an action.
That's a bizarre piece of word salad.
Quote:
That indicates that the Earth (as well as the rest of the universe) can be in only two opposing (opposite) states of existing (actions) at a time.
Demonstrably false conclusion.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Zandel_Corrin
03/22/09 11:45 PM
123.2.140.247
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Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Zandel_Corrin
03/22/09 11:50 PM
123.2.140.247
|
Quote:
Some say the above have opposite and equal reactions. They don't. Some are tall, some are short, some are very wide, some are very thin, some are average, some die young, some die old, some die middle age, some die at birth.
Tall and short >>>>>> OPPOSITE!
Wide and thin >>>>>> Yep OPPOSITE too.
Old and young >>>>>> You guesed it OPPOSITE as well.
Also please note that EVERYTHING in exixtance has an equal and opposite reaction :>:> It exists therefor the equal and opposite reaction is NON-existance! (which we all wish you'd hurry up and start not doing).
Edited by Zandel_Corrin (03/23/09 02:08 AM)
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/23/09 01:32 AM
71.215.55.211
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Quote:
Old and yound >>>>>> You guesed it OPPOSITE as well.
Yound?
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MaiShirunaiispretty
03/24/09 12:19 PM
207.160.205.13
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Hmm, I wonder what the "opposite and equal reaction" is when a woman gives birth to a baby. Does that mean that a baby pops out of thin air after previous said baby is born and that baby that popped out of thin air goes into the woman gets "debirthed", becomes a zygote, splits into egg cell and sperm cell, and egg cell stays in woman whereas sperm cell somehow gets into father of baby that came out of that mother woman?
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/24/09 07:07 PM
24.5.141.133
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No, that just means that your a moron newtype.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Toscotto
03/28/09 10:51 PM
67.212.96.108
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Quote:
That's nothing more than a chain reaction of an action causing an opposite and equal reaction causing action causing opposite and equal reaction and so on.
WTF?
.
The question is not how far, the question is do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as needed?
Edited by Toscotto (03/28/09 10:54 PM)
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GiovanniBlasini
03/29/09 06:50 AM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
Hmm, I wonder what the "opposite and equal reaction" is when a woman gives birth to a baby. Does that mean that a baby pops out of thin air after previous said baby is born and that baby that popped out of thin air goes into the woman gets "debirthed", becomes a zygote, splits into egg cell and sperm cell, and egg cell stays in woman whereas sperm cell somehow gets into father of baby that came out of that mother woman?
As a wise man once said, "Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly comin' to a middle..."
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/29/09 12:22 PM
71.215.60.111
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Quote:
WTF?
WAT
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MaiShirunaiispretty
03/31/09 06:52 PM
207.160.205.13
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GiovanniBlasini, you don't know what you're talking about. I've only been posting here using computer at this library.
And Newtype, you do realize that a naval probe can detect a dark matter cloaked ship, correct? And space isn't always 100% space - there's dust that ships have to deflect. Accelerated/deaccelerated dust will draw attention on radar screens.
Edited by MaiShirunaiispretty (03/31/09 08:58 PM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/31/09 11:15 PM
24.5.141.133
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That's a first newtype arguing with himself.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Newtype
04/11/09 06:58 PM
207.160.205.13
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Hmm, MaiShirunaiispretty, maybe my ideas for cloaked spacecraft won't be successful for invasion purposes. On the other hand, maybe it will. Depends on what's cloaked and where.
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ChipBurcham
05/16/11 01:18 PM
207.160.205.13
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First of all this is not a perpetual motion machine but the physicsmentors at PhysicsForums say it is.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread....336#post2738336
This type of transit drive works in theory by having two combustion chambers positioned parallel to the spacecraft's width and perpendicular to its length. Each of the two exhaust nozzles are also positioned parallel to the spacecraft's width and perpendicular to its length. Fuel is pumped into the combustion chambers and goes out the two exhaust nozzles at high velocity, and each fuel exhuast half next travels through a half of the U shaped tunnel until they both collide against the ship's midship bulkhead pushing the spacecraft forwards. The fuel is made up of multitudes of theorized systematic new elements in which each element provides an incremental acceleration when it combusts (each latter fuel element is more combustible than the former fuel element). The fuel exhausts don't exit the spacecraft. The structure of the U tunnel, combustion chambers, exhaust nozzles, etc. are made up of a theorized new super element I call superglass (the superglass structure negates the necessity of magnetic fields to contain the exhaust particles to keep them from melting spacecraft structure).
Finally I designed a design that contains fuel which can enable it to make use of dark matter cloaking technology. This will enable me to have my new Rim Collection forces conquer the Clan fleets! 
Edited by ChipBurcham (05/16/11 01:26 PM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/16/11 10:33 PM
108.117.77.71
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? Newtype back with another user ID?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Cray
05/16/11 11:07 PM
173.168.112.109
|
Quote:
? Newtype back with another user ID?
Yep, 3 in one thread. The last time earned him a ban for life.
If you see a Chip/NewType/etc. thread or new post, just avoid it. I'm pretty much deleting on sight now. Having other folks respond to him complicates moderation.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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