LVL 1 Atlas

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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/17/09 05:04 PM
24.4.97.143

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Technology Base: - Inner Sphere - Level 1
Equipment Mass 100
Internal Structure: 10
Engine: 300 19
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 19
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 304 standard 19

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3/9
Center Torso 31/47
Center Torso(rear) 14
R/L Torso 21/32
R/L Torso(rear) 10
R/L Arm 17/34
R/L Leg 21/42

Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
PPC LT 3 7
LRM LT 3 7
LRM ammo LT 2 2
3 ML LT 3 3
LRM RT 3 7
LRM ammo RT 2 2
3 ML RT 3 3
2 ML CT(R) 2 2


Cost 9,874,000 C-Bills

With the old version of the Atlas you would just stay out of range of its AC20 and MLs. Doing do all that it has is its LRM20 that will do ~12 points of damage until its ammo runs out. With its speed of 3-5 that should not be to difficult for most mechs. If it can get into range it can do ~36 points of damage each round until its ammo runs out then its down to 10 points With my Atlas the long range damage increases to ~28 points until its ammo runs out and 10 for ever. With the doubling of its ammo it can fire for 4/3 longer with more missals firing each turn. Now its short range attack does not have the one shot one kill ability of the AC20 but its damage is still good with 30 points which is not affected with ammo restrictions. The one thing that the old Atlas could do that mine can't is fire onto mutable targets at with with a large amount of of heat build up. It can fire its LRM at one target, its AC20 and MLs at another, and its rear MLs at a third. But with it so ammo dependent the increase off missing hurts. My Atlas can fire only at one target with out a great deal of heat build up. If I tried an alpha strike and ran I would go right to an ammo explosion on a 7 or less and a shut down with a 9 or less.

there where a couple of errors. I did have the LRMs down for 7 tons but did a typo when typing it in. The armor is 304 points at 19 tons. When I added everything up I missed the three tons for the cockpit. I removed one of the MLs and two heat sinks top bring it down to 100 tons.

Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!


Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (07/17/09 08:52 PM)
KitK
07/17/09 07:03 PM
128.233.94.9

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Gee where to start.

I think you meant 304 not 204 under armor factor, and the location breakdown adds up to 106.
Are those Clan LRM's? You indicate a weight of 6. I am guessing they are IS-LRM15's at 7 tons.
The good news is that after accounting for 2 extra points of armor and the LRM ambiguity, the weight still adds up to 99.5. So, if you fix the armor you have an extra ton to play with, if I managed to add it all up right myself.

It doesn't really 'feel' like and Atlas. But the mech has be re-done by everybody, myself included, so the loss of Atlas-like character is not surprising. Probably the biggest detractors to me are no weapons in the wrists and no big pop-gun (although at level 1 a PPC kind of counts. Maybe an over/under double barrel PPC strapped to the Right Torso).

The other big change is moving from a brawler to a long-range fire-support mech (a.k.a. the AS7-K). Sure all those medium lasers will get the job done if push comes to shove at short-range, but, judging by your description, that is not what this mech is suppose to do. I suppose they are needed though. Without the AC-20 to fear, everyone and their dog will be trying to get in close to this thing. Terrain, role, and suporting forces will make a big difference in deciding which Atlas prevails. I am sure yours will do what you disigned it for, but it can't replace the AS7-D.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/17/09 09:09 PM
24.4.97.143

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I don't like the AS7-D because its just to slow to get within range of its AC20 to really use it and its long range weapons suck for such a heavy mech. If I was using lvl 2 tech I would have replaces the AC20 and the LRM20 with two Gauss Rifles and not have used LRMs at all.

I like using heavy and assault mechs for what they can do and that is use heavy damage long range weapons.

A Phoenix Hawk could bring down an Atlas by keeping out of the range of the Atlas' short range weapons and just keep peppering it with its large laser. If the Phoenix Hawk could keep in the Atlas' rear or right it would not take much to bring the Atlas down since the Atlas has nothing to fire back with.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Venom
07/18/09 02:12 AM
207.191.200.101

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Sorry, it took me awhile to reply to this one because I could not figure out which statement was more ignorant:the PHawk beats Atlas or "Nothing ever changes in naval combat".

Quote:

A Phoenix Hawk could bring down an Atlas by keeping out of the range of the Atlas' short range weapons and just keep peppering it with its large laser. If the Phoenix Hawk could keep in the Atlas' rear or right it would not take much to bring the Atlas down since the Atlas has nothing to fire back with.




If the Atlas is able to make it to the center of the mapsheet-which is 16x17 hexes-the AC/20s "exclusion zone" is most of the map. Furthermore I would bet 100 c-bills against snake scrip that my Atlas can endure your large laser a hell of a lot better than your PHawk could survive my LRMs.You also have to think that Atlas pilots don't get to pilot the King of the Battlefeild by being stupid. If his LRMs have not killed or crippled you he is going to put himself in a place where line of sight prevents you from exploiting his perceived(by you mostly) weakness of short-range. Again, mapsheets are not realy that big and the Atlas is not a fixed turrent with nothing more than an AC/20.

Consider:the long-range over-lap of the LRM and the Large laser is one hex, any closer and you are at LRM medium range. More than likely you are going to be closer to bring your own to-hit down. So now you are talking about the gap between your LLs medium range and the AC/20 long range, which is one hex. So if you don't win inititive and are trying to get close but not to close, you could put yourself in a bad place-not that the long-range of an AC/20 is terrible, but it is not good considering you also have LRMs pouring down on you.

Even if the LRMs were not there, do not fool yourself into thinking that the LL is a potent long-range weapon-it is not. At best it is a middle of the pack medium-range weapon. Should you manage to get to the magic 15 hex range you have to remember that Kerensky asked for the Atlas to have legs for a reason:so it could move. It can either step back or come at you and in BTech, the battlefeild is finite so he can chase you down and get you into AC range.

I know that you will argue that in "real life" the PHawk could continue to run-and-gun, but I counter with the fact that 'mechs do not fight alone so a one on one is unlikely-at best-to take place.
Lafeel
07/18/09 02:52 AM
85.220.109.249

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Sadly I am going to have to agree with Venom here mate. It is a interesting design to be sure, but you sell the Atlas short to claim that a Pixie can take it down one on one.
Venom
07/18/09 04:48 AM
207.191.200.101

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Sadly?!? And I thought I was a most agreeable bloke!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/18/09 09:39 AM
24.4.97.143

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I did not realize that in the BT universe planets where flat and only one map sheet in size. When I have played if you where going to go off the map you added another map sheet, with in reason. The player that had the faster mech had the option of chasing down any mech that was trying to run for it. If the chasing mech ever stopped chasing for any reason the escaping mech was assumed to have been able to hide its self from being tracked. Man for decades I have been playing the game all wrong. I wish that they said in the rule books that you are absolutely forbidden from using more than one map sheet.

You are assuming that there is terrain somewhere that you can use to hide in. If you stayed still and I could not get to you with out risking my self to your AC20 that would end the combat with a Mexican stand off. You can't leave with out me killing you but I can leave at any time that I wish, I would call that a tactical win for me.

I can keep your 100 ton mech pined indefinitely with my 45 ton mech. I would try to starve you out if I was the defender. If I was the attacker, I would keep your mech out of the way for the rest of my side could do what they are there for with out your interference. Assuming that both sides are equal in mass my side will have a 55 ton advantage with both of are mechs out of the fight.

Lets see AC20 at long range, +4 to hit for range, +3 base to hit a jumping target that moves 6 hexes or runs 7-9 hexes, lets call it a 4 for base to hit, that comes up to a 11+ to hit. So your going to use one of your ten shots on something that has only a 8.33% chance of hitting? As for the large laser as long as he has a 12 or less to hit he will fire. If I could get closer in an ark that you cant use the AC20 to return fire I might chance getting in medium range to improve my to hit odds.

The only way to compare one mech to another is to have them fight alone.

Assuming we are using averages a LRM20 will hit with 12 missiles and hit half the time. With the speed that the Phoenix Hawk can move around I think I am being generous with the to hit chances in this case. That comes up to 72 points of damage. A Phoenix Hawk has 128 points of armor not including its IS. That is only 56.25% of the Phoenix Hawk armor. I think that the Phoenix Hawk could survive that with out a great risk of crit hits. If the Phoenix Hawk did lose its LL then it would just run away at a speed that the Atlas would have no chance of matching.

Lets say the Atlas gets initiative, all the PH has to do is get well out of range of the Atlas so no mater what the Atlas pilot does he can't get within range of his AC20. Yes he will still be in range of the Atlas' LRM20 but I am assuming that he will hit with it half of the time anyways. I would do anything to stay out of the range of the AC20 even if that means being out of LL range because I lost the initiative.

Because I am not limited by ammo I can take low chance to hit pot shots all day. Assuming a 8.33% chance of hitting with the LL, to completely strip the Atlas of all armor it will only take 456 rounds. What do you mean you don't want to play BT for a month non stop!?! LOL I am sure that I would get two lucky head or rear torso hits before that.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Bob_Richter
07/19/09 02:10 PM
66.191.9.99

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Quote:

The only way to compare one mech to another is to have them fight alone.




Were that true, all comparisons between 'Mechs would be meaningless, since they almost never fight alone, or to the sole purpose of destroying each other.

Fortunately, it's not really true. You can compare them by dropping them in the same spot in a scenario and comparing how (over the course of several hundred falls of course) its side does. The superior design, for that scenario, will have the greater number of successes.

I'm not a big fan of the Atlas, and I have beaten one with a Firestarter (to be sure, it had eviscerated the rest of my lance first, but since that cost it almost nothing, it almost doesn't count,) but I have to differ with the idea that it can be reliably defeated by a Phoenix Hawk. The best the Phoenix Hawk can actually do against a competently piloted Atlas is to force a draw by moving beyond the Atlas's best weapons range and exhausting the Atlas's ammunition. The Phoenix Hawk still has no plausible means by which it can destroy the Atlas, provided only that the Atlas can block line of sight between 10 and 15 hexes.

A duel, then, is a draw, but the situation becomes worse for the Phoenix Hawk when the Atlas is engaged in an assault mission on a fixed point, since it is impossible for the Phoenix Hawk to reliably halt or even to slow the Atlas's advance. Its only tactic is retreat.

If either (or both) have friends, the permutations quickly become too complex for casual contemplation.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Bob_Richter
07/19/09 02:26 PM
66.191.9.99

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This design does not appear to be legal. Its armor allocation is two points over the 19 tons you accounted for, and it's four tons short.

The PPC's not a bad call, exactly, but now it's badly undersinked and has no arm-mounted weapons. An Atlas it's not.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/19/09 08:28 PM
24.4.97.143

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Your right I missed that. That happens when you are going from one window to another trying to copy a mech.

It might be technically legal. I did not go over allowed armor, weight, or crits.

I am going to have to go over it again.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Prince_of_Darkness
07/19/09 10:40 PM
71.214.4.128

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Quote:

I did not realize that in the BT universe planets where flat and only one map sheet in size. When I have played if you where going to go off the map you added another map sheet, with in reason. The player that had the faster mech had the option of chasing down any mech that was trying to run for it. If the chasing mech ever stopped chasing for any reason the escaping mech was assumed to have been able to hide its self from being tracked. Man for decades I have been playing the game all wrong. I wish that they said in the rule books that you are absolutely forbidden from using more than one map sheet.

You are assuming that there is terrain somewhere that you can use to hide in. If you stayed still and I could not get to you with out risking my self to your AC20 that would end the combat with a Mexican stand off. You can't leave with out me killing you but I can leave at any time that I wish, I would call that a tactical win for me.

I can keep your 100 ton mech pined indefinitely with my 45 ton mech. I would try to starve you out if I was the defender. If I was the attacker, I would keep your mech out of the way for the rest of my side could do what they are there for with out your interference. Assuming that both sides are equal in mass my side will have a 55 ton advantage with both of are mechs out of the fight.

Lets see AC20 at long range, +4 to hit for range, +3 base to hit a jumping target that moves 6 hexes or runs 7-9 hexes, lets call it a 4 for base to hit, that comes up to a 11+ to hit. So your going to use one of your ten shots on something that has only a 8.33% chance of hitting? As for the large laser as long as he has a 12 or less to hit he will fire. If I could get closer in an ark that you cant use the AC20 to return fire I might chance getting in medium range to improve my to hit odds.

The only way to compare one mech to another is to have them fight alone.

Assuming we are using averages a LRM20 will hit with 12 missiles and hit half the time. With the speed that the Phoenix Hawk can move around I think I am being generous with the to hit chances in this case. That comes up to 72 points of damage. A Phoenix Hawk has 128 points of armor not including its IS. That is only 56.25% of the Phoenix Hawk armor. I think that the Phoenix Hawk could survive that with out a great risk of crit hits. If the Phoenix Hawk did lose its LL then it would just run away at a speed that the Atlas would have no chance of matching.

Lets say the Atlas gets initiative, all the PH has to do is get well out of range of the Atlas so no mater what the Atlas pilot does he can't get within range of his AC20. Yes he will still be in range of the Atlas' LRM20 but I am assuming that he will hit with it half of the time anyways. I would do anything to stay out of the range of the AC20 even if that means being out of LL range because I lost the initiative.

Because I am not limited by ammo I can take low chance to hit pot shots all day. Assuming a 8.33% chance of hitting with the LL, to completely strip the Atlas of all armor it will only take 456 rounds. What do you mean you don't want to play BT for a month non stop!?! LOL I am sure that I would get two lucky head or rear torso hits before that.




TL;DR version:

I don't want to admit that my argument has been bested.


Edited by Prince_of_Darkness (07/19/09 10:41 PM)
Venom
07/21/09 02:12 AM
207.191.200.101

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Quote:

I did not realize that in the BT universe planets where flat and only one map sheet in size. When I have played if you where going to go off the map you added another map sheet, with in reason. The player that had the faster mech had the option of chasing down any mech that was trying to run for it. If the chasing mech ever stopped chasing for any reason the escaping mech was assumed to have been able to hide its self from being tracked. Man for decades I have been playing the game all wrong. I wish that they said in the rule books that you are absolutely forbidden from using more than one map sheet.
[quote/]

Sorry, I must have missed the book with those tournament rules in it. I am guessing that it does not exist, so lets stick to standard rules that everybody knows to make discussion a little easier. In that vein, to leave the pre-selected battlefeild is considered retreat unless using optional off-board movement rules which do not apply to one on one duels.

Now, according to BMR:R standard practice is to have one map sheet for every four units. Since we already know through your wisdom that the only way to compare 'mechs is to fight them one on one. That being said it would seem that the only way according to you to compare two 'mechs would be to fight them one on one on a single map.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/21/09 09:27 PM
24.4.97.143

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Even before clan tech was ever published, me and my friends at the time had always played with four map sheets. One is just way to limiting. there is no point having long range weapons all you need to do is stand in the center and use medium lasers for the most part everything is with in range.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/16/16 03:31 AM
70.122.160.150

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After being gone for a good part of a year I decided to be a royal pain in the donkey by bringing up my old posts from the morgue and set loss some old post zombies. *Evil braying!!!*

I will see you again in another year or so
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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