Tripod
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 210
Loc: Denton, TX
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How many rounds are in YOUR ammo bin?
#156051 - 08/16/09 09:31 PM (192.94.94.105)
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I indroduced 2 basicly new players to BT a short while back and one of them had a VERY good question/point.
I did mention this in a earlier post on the general chat forum, but I'd like it formerly answered.
Let me set the scene...
The questioning newbie is in a 3025 book standard Crusader. I'm unsure if you round up or down when calculating how many heat sinks are in the engine but with a 240 rate divided by 25, basicly all 10 sinks are in the engine. This makes the Crusated somewhat of a walking powderkeg, having LRM 15 ammo in both the Right and Left torso's, naked. One crit on RT/LT will automaticly hit the ammo, POOF!
The newbie had taken quite a bit of dammage from an Atlas and being quite new to the game I reminded him that if he walks next turn he can dump the LRM ammo in that criticly dammaged torso before it gets destroyed. Well, behold the power of the spoken word, next round he did not walk and did not dump his ammo. The following round the ammo was hit! . . . .
Now... Here is where the question comes in.
The whole battle he had been feeding both LRM 15 launchers from this 1 bin. Totaly cool by my understanding of the rules. Correct me if I'm wrong but when you dump ammo the weapon(s) feeding from that bin have one final shot chambered ready to fire? I had told him this when I mentioned a few rounds before about walking and dumping, that if he dumped all his ammo, each weapon would have 1 final shot. This ammo bin had fired 5 rounds so far, not counting the current turn when the bin was hit. when he asked how much dammage an ammo explosion did, I told him as much dammage as that ammo would do if all the remaining shots hit that location(internal structure only). He replied, so, 15 dammage? I told him no, it's 45, there are 3 shots left in that bin. He, using the logic and reasoning behind the ammo dumping concluded that there was actually 1 shot left physicly in the bin, the other 2 were actually chambered in the launcher, ready to fire.
This dumbfounded me. I'm like half way to Battletech retirement (18yrs and counting) and this never crossed my mind?
Hypothetical situation here....
So, if in the first round of combat the Atlas fired it's LRM at the Crusader and struck CT Critical and hit the SRM ammo bin, would it have 15 or 13 shots in the bin? I might assume the same as the newbie, that 2 rounds are already in the launchers, even though the srm's have not been fired before and were not fired in this turn. If the rules insist that all 15 shots of SRM ammo detonate, should 12 dammage be applied to each leg and the launchers detroyed? No. I don't see it that way.
Some might say that the rounds are chambered the round they are fired. That a weapon sits at rest unloaded? No....
Your opinions are welcome, facts are better!
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TBA
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Venom
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/17/06
Posts: 256
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Re: How many rounds are in YOUR ammo bin?
[Re: Tripod]
#156085 - 08/19/09 12:17 AM (207.191.200.101)
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You informed your newbie incorrectly. According to BMR:R(the latest rulebook that I have) the ammo that is going to be dumped stays onboard until the following end phase but is NOT available for use in that turn. That covers the first part.
As for the second scenario, it seems that ammo is not chambered until it is ready to fire. According to BMR:R the bin explodes with the force of the attack value times the number of unfired shots. So all 15 shots would explode. But on a lvl 1, does it matter if 13 or 15 shots are destroyed?
Of course things may have changed since BMR:R.
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Tripod
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 210
Loc: Denton, TX
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Re: How many rounds are in YOUR ammo bin?
[Re: Venom]
#156088 - 08/19/09 01:18 AM (192.91.75.29)
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Sorry, I was not clear on the way the turns flowed. Turn 1 he was running, when I told him he could walk next turn and dump. Turn 2 he chose not to dump in order to run. Turn 3 the ammo was hit.
So, lets say he choose to walk in turn 2 and dump ammo. Fluff-wise, would 15 LRM rounds fall to the ground or 45? I would venture to say the newbie is correct that 15 missiles fall to the ground, the other 30 were already chambered in the launcher...? This is based on how we think things would work if mechs were real. They are not real and we must follow the rules as they are...
Hmm... Follow this logic... If a Locust has 200 shots for his 2 MGs and he dumps his ammo, he still has a single shot for each MG right?(I'll check TW when I get home to see for sure if he would have 2 final shots)??? That being true, if that ammo bin was hit it would do 396 dammage right? not 400?
I know, it's dead either way...
The Crusader was a different story though. 15 vs 45 dammage was the differance between being functional or non-salvagable....
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TBA
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Venom
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/17/06
Posts: 256
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Re: How many rounds are in YOUR ammo bin?
[Re: Tripod]
#156089 - 08/19/09 02:08 AM (207.191.200.101)
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Quote:
Hmm... Follow this logic... If a Locust has 200 shots for his 2 MGs and he dumps his ammo, he still has a single shot for each MG right?(I'll check TW when I get home to see for sure if he would have 2 final shots)??? That being true, if that ammo bin was hit it would do 396 dammage right? not 400?
No. BMR:R states "It explodes with a force equal to the ammo's Damage Value times the shots remaining ."
and
"When a unit announces that his unit will be dumping ammunition, that ammunition is no longer availabel for use." So ammo stays in the bins until a warrior decides to fire it.
Granted this is according to the rulebook. I seem to recall that Aidan Pryde had one more round in his LB-X during his bloodname trial, but I can't recall why he didn't have the rest of his ammo. Also every novel I have read seems to mention ammo cycling after the last shot.That and all the pictures of Timberwolves with missiles jutting from the launchers.
Also, the rulebook gets a little fuzzy as far as hot-loaded LRMs. Those seem to load into the launcher instantly, seeing as how a hit to the launcher causes them to detonate. This is odd considering that all weapons fire happens simultaneously so if the LRMs were fired, they would have to cycle instantly in order to be hit...
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Tripod
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/14/07
Posts: 210
Loc: Denton, TX
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Re: How many rounds are in YOUR ammo bin?
[Re: Venom]
#156092 - 08/19/09 06:09 AM (192.94.94.105)
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I'm not home yet to look at the book but...
I see it as when you walk onto the field and chamber your first round you should mark off one shot from that bin, after you fire and chamber the next round, mark the next round off.
Seems I remember the old compendium worded it as all shots remaining... in that location...
Some people might see this as nit-picking since most ammo explosions cripple a mech but if your down to your lest few shots even a level 1 mech can survive.
if an ammo bin is destroyed and the mech survives, having NOT fired the weapon feeding from that ammo that round, he still has 1 shot remaining in the weapon correct? I seem to remember that being the rule. If that is the case I think my newbies point is valid...
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TBA
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Bob_Richter
General
Reged: 04/23/01
Posts: 2886
Loc: Richland, WA (USA)
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Re: How many rounds are in YOUR ammo bin?
[Re: Tripod]
#156095 - 08/19/09 07:26 AM (66.191.9.99)
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Ammo leaves the bin when you fire the weapon, and not a moment before. This also means that you can't fire with an empty bin.
The weapon does indeed sit at rest unloaded.
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-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
General
Reged: 04/23/01
Posts: 2886
Loc: Richland, WA (USA)
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Re: How many rounds are in YOUR ammo bin?
[Re: Tripod]
#156096 - 08/19/09 07:29 AM (66.191.9.99)
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Quote:
I see it as when you walk onto the field and chamber your first round you should mark off one shot from that bin, after you fire and chamber the next round, mark the next round off.
That's incorrect. Ammo is marked off when you fire the weapon, and not before.
Quote:
if an ammo bin is destroyed and the mech survives, having NOT fired the weapon feeding from that ammo that round, he still has 1 shot remaining in the weapon correct?
Nope, the ammo bin and feed mechanism are destroyed, leaving the weapon unloaded. It can no longer fire.
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-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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