Atlas II...isn't really an Atlas, is it?

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Lafeel
09/06/09 07:26 PM
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Exactly. If the Atlas 2 had been named anything other than what it was there would not be any controversy at all, and people would be singing it's praises for being the superb assault mech it is.

Instead because of the name people go "hey this isn't what I expected when I saw it's name.."
Tripod
09/06/09 08:21 PM
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I could see a total redesign keeping the same name + a II or whatever if it was redesigned to fullfill the same role.

The fluff is the key in making a II worthy of the same name more so than weapon loadouts, placement or confuguration. (IMO)
TBA
Karagin
09/06/09 09:05 PM
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That is also true of some of the other mechs that have come to us via MWDA or what ever the clicky game is called now. A light weight Mad Cat...a 100 ton Mad Cat, a Ryoken that gained weight etc...

Certain names of mechs invoke certain images and abilities, thus by saying something is an Atlas II, folks expect it to have a similar weapons load out to the original and be able to do more or have something better going for it.

So I agree with you guys, they should have named this mechs something else, instead of calling it an Atlas II.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
09/07/09 01:30 AM
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I don't know. If you pump the Phoenix Hawk up to 80 tons and arm it with a pair of Ultra-10s...

No, I wouldn't say that, but this is a much less severe deviation than that, and than several already in canon.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Bob_Richter
09/07/09 01:36 AM
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Yeah. Because none of that ever happened before.

For example, the 100-ton Marauder II? Must be a MWDA thing.

This isn't that. This is a 100-ton Atlas. Same indestructable carapace. Same crawling doom. Better midrange coverage.

Sure, you lose the bubble of doom, but that was as much a failing of the original Atlas as a strength. Its weapons (if not their placement) are broadly similar, and well in line with some other Atlases in the canon.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Karagin
09/07/09 08:41 AM
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The 100 ton Maraduer was seen by a lot of folks as a move to fix the flaws of the 75 ton one. Plus it also hinted that somewhere you would find 100 ton versions of all of the mechs.

The bubble of doom is what makes the Atlas the mech it is.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
09/10/09 07:57 PM
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Quote:

The 100 ton Maraduer was seen by a lot of folks as a move to fix the flaws of the 75 ton one.




Exactly as the Atlas II is a move to fix the flaws of the original. One of those flaws was the disasterously short range of not only its primary weapon but most of its secondaries.

Quote:


The bubble of doom is what makes the Atlas the mech it is.




You can argue that a 'Mech is defined by its flaws. The Marauder was defined by being undersinked, having thin armor, and lacking jump-jets, but every variation and upgrade on the Marauder fixed one or more of these flaws, and rarely did so without removing a signature weapon or feature -- the AC/5 was popular, but the PPCs even frequently got the axe to try to bring the monster's heat under control. The Marauder II sacrificed nearly everything that made it a Marauder (retaining only a pair of PPCs and a pair of medium lasers) to try to fix these flaws. It's far more what we're talking about than the Atlas II is.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
OPER_DANG
09/18/09 11:01 AM
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I always thought the Atlas (and King Crab, etc) were meant to be more like Bosses the GM set you up against...and unless you know the weaknesses and how to exploit them you end up fleeing and saying "run away, run away" in faked Brittish accents...:)
So I can see the point on the Atlas II not fitting the iconic image, but in my experience it seems the more weapons there are to fire averages better that something hits and the "paper cuts" can add up faster than the Big Gun that misses...also it is a good tactic to have different weapons & ranges than what your opponent expected. My $0.02
Karagin
09/18/09 11:39 AM
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And playing where you do nothing but alpha strike (aka firing everything) all the time makes for a pointless game, sure that tactic work on the computer game, mainly because the AI isn't programed to do the same, so it cycles weapons, you blast away, fun against a silicon brain, not fun when it is the only tactic some players seem to use in the board game.

No one is saying the mech is bad, just that they changed the role of the Atlas, it had the heavy hitting guns, token long range fire and was medium to short range brawler/slugger, it weeds into the fight, shrugs off the damage and boom the AC20 is the freight train that slams into you.

Death by papercuts is a great thing, BUT there are too many ways to counter it in this game, minefields, called shots (though this one may not be the easist), having your own mechs that do the same to your enemy etc...missing with the big gun means that you have shown your teeth and only a bad player will get any closer to the mech carrying something that can cripple most medium and light mechs with a single hit.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
09/19/09 04:40 AM
71.92.100.216

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Yes. Because the only kind of tactic is heat-management.

When did this become about DHS alpha-babies, exactly?

The Atlas has no medium range. Medium range is where the Atlas II shines, and it can hold its own at short range. So it doesn't have a 20-pointer. So what?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Lafeel
09/19/09 05:27 AM
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Instead it has a ten pointer which can also crit seek, and a pair of eight pointers..Yea you do have a very good point, Bob.
Karagin
09/19/09 06:43 AM
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The AC20 is the medium range weapon as are its' medium lasers.

This is about different reason why and how the mech works in its' ranges.

The AC20 is its' trademark, the idea that it can walk into the fight, take the damage, and pretty much destroy then enemy with its' firepower. Check out the video for the Mechwarrior 5 game, the Atlas rules over the Warhammer it is facing.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Venom
09/19/09 04:01 PM
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Quote:

The AC20 is its' trademark, the idea that it can walk into the fight, take the damage, and pretty much destroy then enemy with its' firepower. Check out the video for the Mechwarrior 5 game, the Atlas rules over the Warhammer it is facing.




I dunno about that. Nearly every Atlas upgrade ditches the AC for a GR. As I have said before the 'mech has grown on me. When paired with a royal King Crab the team is hell on wheels against anything the House Lords had to offer.
Lafeel
09/19/09 07:49 PM
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Same here, my first reaction was, I'll freely admit, a "what the..", but the more I think about it the more I like it. I've even grown to respect the reasons behind where they put the weapons, which was something that got me scratching my head before.
Karagin
09/20/09 08:16 AM
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They ditch it because the designers aka TPTB wanted to show off the new tech, plus the Gauss is considered as cool as the AC20.

Glad you like the re-made Atlas, I think will stick to the original.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
09/20/09 05:52 PM
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Quote:

The AC20 is the medium range weapon as are its' medium lasers.





Neither system reaches to medium range.

Quote:


The AC20 is its' trademark,




You've clearly confused the Atlas with the Hunchback.

Quote:


it can walk into the fight, take the damage, and pretty much destroy then enemy with its' firepower. Check out the video for the Mechwarrior 5 game, the Atlas rules over the Warhammer it is facing.




And none of that changes with the Atlas II.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Karagin
09/20/09 06:18 PM
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You have your theories on the two mechs and I have mine.

The AC20 IS the weapon that is the most feared on the Atlas, just as is on the Hunchback.

Could you define medium range for us, since I think we are not on the same page here with this. I see medium range as being something that covers the number of hexes starting at about 7 to about 12, give or take two hexes, so roughly an average of 9 being were medium range starts and ending at the 7 hex range, of course it will vary for most weapons but if you could give us what you see as being medium range then we might have a better angle on your take of the two mechs.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Tripod
09/20/09 09:29 PM
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When talking strictly about level 1(3025) tech I DO concider 9 hexes medium. When advanced tech is used, I see 9 as more on the short end of ranges...yes, ac/20's and med's can reach 7 hexes but at what accuracy? ther are pretty feeble with that +4 range modifier...

3-9-15(18) for short/med/long range "class" weapons just does not cut it vs the is er's much less the clan stuff...
TBA
Karagin
09/20/09 09:39 PM
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But the Atlas II wasn't made to face Clan tech, it was made to fight other Inner Sphere mechs carrying both advanced tech and common tech, aka SL and 3025 tech.

Just as the original Atlas was made to face the same weapons and tech. Neither mech is going to be doing all that great against Clan tech, more so before the changes made to the Targ/Pulse Laser deal.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
09/21/09 12:49 AM
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Quote:

The AC20 IS the weapon that is the most feared on the Atlas, just as is on the Hunchback.





The most feared, the most mocked, and the least used, coming in somewhere behind the SRM-6, and well behind the rear-mounted lasers. Less than 50% of its war-load. Good for less than ten rounds of combat. Hardly a defining feature, especially when compared with the nearly twenty tons of armor it also carries.

While on the Hunchback, the 14-ton AC/20 is not only the centerpiece of its arsenal, it's very nearly the only weapon it has. And yet, most Hunchback variations trade it out for another more versatile system.

As a defining weapon system, it fails utterly. As a defining flaw, it works beautifully, but I have already explained that defining flaws are usually the first thing designers look at when building an upgrade.

Quote:

Could you define medium range for us,




Weapons in the 3/6/9 range class are the shortest-ranged practical weapons in 3025 Battletech. They define the term "short range," such that "medium range" then begins at 10 hexes and is filled by the 5/10/15 range class. Depending on who you ask, the 6/12/18s might also be medium range. In 3025, I wouldn't say so, but in 2750 or 3050, that's absolutely true.

Quote:


since I think we are not on the same page here with this. I see medium range as being something that covers the number of hexes starting at about 7 to about 12,




Okay. In that case, the Medium Laser (and its ilk) cover at best half the described range, and only at their worst target numbers. They can hardly be said to be "medium range weapons" on that basis.

The AC/10 and LL fit the description better, and even the PPC, AC/5, and LRM are stronger contenders.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
LAMdriver
09/23/09 12:54 AM
64.147.209.78

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Personally, I think that the Atlas II is compareable to the orginal Atlas as is Skinamax porn is to interent porn. Yeah it's got some nice things but in general it's lacking the good stuff.
" The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make some other bastard die for his!"--Patton

""War is Hell. Combat is a motherfucker."---General Tommy Franks


Edited by LAMdriver (09/23/09 01:28 AM)
Rotwang
09/24/09 02:23 PM
78.23.8.52

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Realistically speaking the Atlas should have mounted a Gauss Rifle when first designed. Given that the updated Atlas already packs one the guys who wrote the TR didn't want to go the obvious way and put a GR so they sorta came up with a big Assault mech that they dub Atlas II end of story.

In 3025, the Atlas was something big and scary. In isolation it has serious flaws. It has a single ammo based ranged weapon. It's sitting there being big and scary shouting "Snipe me ! Snipe me !"

Now how much brain damage do you need to send an asset like an Atlas out there on its own ? An Atlas needs some backup like a Warhammer, Archer, or even an Rifleman to keep the enemy from picking you to pieces at range.

It's clear when looking at the 3025 assaults that the AC/20 was considered the ultimate weapon, the only real headchopper in the game and even if it had a limited range, most people played on two maps so sooner or later the Atlas would be in range.

The Atlas II should have looked at boosting the LRM20 with artemis and extra ammo. Keep the AC/20 as a "final argument and get rid of the SRM6 and put in a PPC or large lasers. A few good tweaks here and there should make it more convincing than a complete overhaul. If you make it a full rebuild it could get nasty and still have that quaint SLDF feel of the TR2750 we all love.
Karagin
09/24/09 03:31 PM
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I like your suggestion to improve the mech and make it more like the original. I think I will take the suggestions and modify the mech to them.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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