Cray
12/04/09 11:10 PM
173.168.115.68
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Let's see, they have an army that they can build up, arm, train, supply and pay for far faster then any another Inner Sphere power.
That's false. They built their army at about the same rate as Comstar and the Clans built from military disasters in the 3050s, AND WoB built their army more slowly than ANY House rebuilds its forces.
WoB had about 100 regiments in 3067 of all types, calling for a construction rate of 5-6 regiments per year (1-2 'mech regiments and the balance in conventional units). The Houses were building 4-5 'Mech regiments a year in 3025 and had trebled that by 3067; their construction rate of conventional infantry and tank units was much higher than 'Mechs. WoB didn't hold a candle to the Houses. And this is noted in Jihad Secrets.
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They can do this with out anyone noticing
Many people noticed. This is stated in Dawn of the Jihad (which you own, IIRC) and Jihad Secrets. In the real Jihad (not the exaggerated version you're presenting here), WoB was watched and tracked. The Dragoons even made a military alliance against them. The clueless Clans didn't know what was aimed at them.
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or taking action to find out what is going.
Many people took action to find out what's going on - every intelligence agency in the Inner Sphere (except maybe infiltrated Comstar ROM and the incompetent Clan Watches). They kept an eye on WoB and its "secret" Periphery bases and figured WoB was going to have a fight with its "brother" Comstar, or resist the new Star League's efforts to reclaim HPGs as a federal institution. It turned out that WoB wanted to destroy the Clans, and threw a religious tantrum when the Star League collapsed unexpectedly.
This was published in Dawn of the Jihad, Karagin, and published years ago. You can't go on passing off your homemade nightmare as the real WoB forever.
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They can recruit, hire or brainwash millions of people to pilot the mechs, drive the tanks and other vehicles, fly the fighters, cook the food, repair all the weapons of war, keep them fully supplied logicality and pay for what all of this cost with seemly having to worry about it at all.
Cost? Karagin, you know perfectly well that WoB's army and navy are smaller than those of the four main invading Clans in 3050, and WoB has a much larger, richer population than those Clans. This has been in publication for three years, so you can't be that unaware. Why are you exaggerating like this?
Convincing was easy, and the perspectives of Clan supporters have been detailed throughout the Jihad sourcebooks. The Houses destroyed the Star League AGAIN - that's motivation for hundreds of billions of people to aid WoB. The Houses brought a decade of chaos and pain to the Core Worlds AGAIN - all the Hegemony planets that had suffered in the Succession Wars at the hands of the Houses were suffering again as the Chaos March. Motivations? There are plenty without even getting into WoB's own True Believers.
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Having better weapons is not an issue, the Houses and Clans can counter those with their own R&D. Using NBC weapons, while not the best thing for anyone to be doing, those too can be countered, as for them being out numbered, please could you site a source of this?
Dawn of the Jihad stated an estimate of 50 to 200 regiments, and Jihad Secrets confirmed that at about 100-120 regiments - all types of regiments, not pure 'Mech regiments. WoB is outnumbered many times over.
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Seems that they have the numbers to attack whom and where they want
Karagin, I don't know why you make the Jihad worse than it is. You hate your version of the Jihad and WoB so badly, but when confronted with years of evidence that explain or mitigate every complaint you have...you reject and go back to your own nightmare. I don't get that. You could be giving a sigh of relief that the WoB is not the nightmare you heard about in internet rumors shortly after FASA's collapse but, no, here you are, years later, trying to turn WoB into something it isn't.
Look at canon publications, like the Jihad Hotspots series:
1) WoB didn't attack everyone at once. It started off with 2 years of screw-ups. See Dawn of the Jihad and Jihad Hotspots 3070.
2) WoB was a small fry for 4 years into the Jihad. The Houses were too busy beating each other to a pulp to care much about WoB. See DotJ, JHS:3070, and JHS:3072.
3) WoB didn't attack anyone at will. It hit a few strong points while larger wars raged around it. See all JHS books.
4) WoB built its troops far more slowly than any House, and only as fast as Comstar in the 3050s. See Jihad secrets.
5) WoB fielded a smaller military than any House (note points 1, 2, and 3), and a smaller force than the four main Invading Clans (Wolf, Jaguar, Bears, Falcon) of 3050, but with a bigger population (6 billion vs 300 million) and higher per capita wealth than the Clans. The only reason WoB wasn't stomped immediately is because a little, tantrum throwing religious group invading a few worlds doesn't nearly measure up to the massive border conflicts between Houses. There were priorities, and WoB wasn't at the top of them.
That ain't the WoB you're talking about here.
I'll even put $4 down (on lottery tickets, as good as losing it) that you'll reject this post, too, Karagin, and go back to your version of WoB-the-Ultimate-Nightmare instead of reading the bits of DotJ, JHS, and Jihad Secrets that refute your version of WoB. I'm betting:
1) You'll ignore how widely spread in time WoB's initial attacks were
2) You'll ignore the contemporary, larger border conflicts between Houses and Clans
3) You'll ignore the other factions that built militaries as fast as WoB
4) You'll ignore the large factions that built militaries faster than WoB
5) You'll ignore the large conflicts like civil wars and conflicts with Clans that ate up those extra major faction forces
6) You'll ignore in-character availability of evidence implicating WoB in some conflicts
7) You'll use out-of-character hindsight and points 1-6 to say WoB should've been everyone's prime opponent in 3067
Please prove me wrong by coming out of your the nightmare of your own making. I'd like to win the lottery. 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/05/09 12:18 AM
64.134.154.8
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No Cray, I am not ignoring anything. You are trying to sell something that doesn't make sense. You say they built up slower then anyone else, you cite the Clans, they had 300 years to get what they have, you sight ComStar, who had roughly that same amount of time to get what they had.
If folks noticed it would not have stayed a secret for very long. I have never said their attacks weren't wide spread, in fact Cray I have point out that those same attacks would be illogical to pull of given how it would take massive amounts of resouces and planning, which would invlove more people and thus the word (pardon the pun) would get out.
As for the border conflicts between the Clans and Houses, those were watered down via the PTB, to raids similar to what we all knew pre-Clan Invasion.
What other factions that built up a top notch elite military in a mere 21 years like the WoB? Could you give a few examples?
Extra factions in the Clans...let's see we have the Invasion Clans, and we have the Home Clans and we have the Dark Caste group...mix in the Warden stance and Crusader stance you have a group that is no more divided then your average House.
WoB and Comstar messing with stuff is not something I have pointed out as a problem, again you are jumping the gun here, I have pointed out the issues with logistical end of things, that is where I am having the problem, the same end of things that HAS NOT BEEN EXPLAIN IN FACTUAL MANNER.
I would love to read a source book that is all facts about the Jihad that actually gives facts not a bunch of newspaper reports.
So let me recap, the areas of the current storyline I dislike:
One the uber army that popped up over night, 21 years is over night in the scheme of Battletech.
The idea that their having Terra and the Sol System gives them carte blanc on everything.
The idea that they can afford to pay for, supply and man as well as replace things with ease.
And the last one is how easy it was to hide from the prying eyes of people like Wolfnet, NAIS, MIIO, ISF, etc...
So no Cray I am not in a nightmare and don't need to wake up. I just feel that they could have a done better job of resetting the BT universe, but given that all has to tie into the Dark Age setting, shows that hands were tied the minute that WK bought the rights to BT.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/05/09 01:36 AM
173.168.115.68
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I would love to read a source book that is all facts about the Jihad that actually gives facts not a bunch of newspaper reports.
You had them handed to you on a platter in the Jihad Secrets. 4 pages laid out the whole thing, pg 11, 12, 13, and 14.
The Jihad Hotspots books provide convenient summaries of the prior publications' disjointed news reports, too. You only need a couple dozen pages in those books to put it all together, month by month, year by year, instead of reading all the little articles.
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No Cray, I am not ignoring anything. You are trying to sell something that doesn't make sense. You say they built up slower then anyone else, you cite the Clans, they had 300 years to get what they have
There you go again, ignoring timelines. The Clans had 250 years to build up to their invasion strengths...and then they got their asses kicked at Tukayyid and repeatedly afterwards. The Clans rebuild at the rate of regiments per year using merely hundreds of millions of supporting, impoverished people.
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you sight ComStar, who had roughly that same amount of time to get what they had.
Newp for two reasons. The Comguards were originally built from 1 regiment in the late 2900s to 144 regiments in 3025. Later, in 3062-3067, Comstar had 5 years to build 28 regiments. After the debacles in the 3050s, the Comguards had 86 regiments in 3062. In 3067, they had 100 regiments - despite losing 14 regiments in the FC Civil War (mid-3060s). Since the 3052-3055 post-Tukayyid reconstruction exhausted Comstar's SLDF stockpiles (see: Comstar SB), the 3062-3067 reconstruction was with new production and procurement rather than drawing on ancient stockpiles.
Per FM:Updates, and FC:Civil War, and pg14 of Jihad Secrets, the Comguards were building over 7 regiments (all types) per year in 3066-3067. Per the House Sourcebooks, this is a trivial accomplishment - The Houses were doing 4 to 5 regiments of 'Mechs per year in 3025, matched by 3x as many tank regiments and 5x as many infantry regiments. What's 7 regiments a 3025 House average of 36 or more regiments per year?
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If folks noticed it would not have stayed a secret for very long.
Dude, when you say things like that, it's clear you're not paying attention to canon in favor of your own, home grown version of WoB and the Jihad.
WoB's military wasn't secret. Dawn of the Jihad said as much in 2006. Throughout the early phase of the Jihad, people were wondering WTF WoB was up to. Read the books - the FWL was wondering why WoB wasn't helping them fight the Lyrans; the FedSuns used the CC's supposed collusion with WoB as an excuse to launch Sovereign Justice; etc. WoB's activities were very public.
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I have never said their attacks weren't wide spread
I think you misread what I said in my last post. I said, "WoB attacked few planets early in the Jihad." Few attacks, Karagin, not many. Only in your version of the Jihad does WoB attack everyone at once.
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in fact Cray I have point out that those same attacks would be illogical to pull of given how it would take massive amounts of resouces and planning, which would invlove more people and thus the word (pardon the pun) would get out.
For the first year, YEAR, of the Jihad, WoB hardly did anything except hit a handful of planets. That's detailed at length in Dawn of the Jihad. Stop exaggerating, Karagin. The Jihad isn't what you make it out to be.
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As for the border conflicts between the Clans and Houses, those were watered down via the PTB, to raids similar to what we all knew pre-Clan Invasion.
Why are you saying things blatantly contradicted by Dawn of the Jihad and Jihad Hotspots: 3070? The CC-FS conflict started by Sovereign Justice involved the entirety of the St. Ives Compact and later dozens of CC and Capellan March worlds. The Draconis March-DC conflict reached a dozen worlds, bigger than almost any 3rd Succession Wars campaign. The giant FWL-Skye conflict starting in 3067 involved more worlds than the LC and FWL fought over in the 4th Succession War.
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What other factions that built up a top notch elite military in a mere 21 years like the WoB? Could you give a few examples?
Trick question. WoB screwed the pooch constantly in 3067 in 3068. Far from being elite, it was a group of green troops that kept getting their asses kicked. The first two attacks on New Avalon were giant jokes that were defeatedly promptly. It wasn't until 3072 that WoB managed a halfway decent invasion of a planet that was ground down by civil war, three border wars (Capellan, Taurian, and Combine), and two direct attacks. Most WoB units show little sign of elitism. Even the Manei Domini didn't get their act together until they'd had several years of battlefield experience - they were overblown, fanatic crap at the dawn of the Jihad.
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One the uber army that popped up over night, 21 years is over night in the scheme of Battletech.
What WoB did is no different than post-Tukayyid Comstar, the post-invasion Clans, and post-3050 Houses.
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The idea that their having Terra and the Sol System gives them carte blanc on everything.
That's your own idea. In canon, having Terra and the Sol System let WoB built 7 regiments per year: less than 20% of the production rate of a 3025-era House. Stop making WoB worse than really is.
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The idea that they can afford to pay for, supply and man as well as replace things with ease.
They have more and wealthier taxpayers than the post-Invasion Clans.
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And the last one is how easy it was to hide from the prying eyes of people like Wolfnet, NAIS, MIIO, ISF, etc...
You are so thoroughly contradicted by canon on that point it's not worth further refutation. I can actually use that quote to show you're not reading the books and instead trying to pass off your own home game as the real Jihad.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/05/09 09:16 AM
205.202.120.216
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I wonder if Karagin realizes that we knew WoB was building up all the way back in the 3060's with the fluff for the Buccaneer and Initiate.
You know, I could go into depth like Cray, winning 4$ of lotto tickets and a good assortment of lulz, but instead I will proclaim something.
Nerd Rage.
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Cray
12/05/09 11:38 AM
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I wonder if Karagin realizes that we knew WoB was building up all the way back in the 3060's with the fluff for the Buccaneer and Initiate.
I don't know. What I have seen in Karagin on internet forums is a baffling display of a vigorous defense of something he's trying to argue against. When his concerns about the Jihad and WoB are addressed with book references that show his concerns to be exaggerated or outright wrong, instead of saying "Thank God, it's not as bad as I thought," he staunchly defends his version of the Jihad - the version he utterly hates.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/05/09 05:00 PM
64.134.154.8
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Cray, I think it is clear that we are not going to reach an agreement or an understanding on this issue. You can defend the company and the plot line given that you do work for them. So while that is fine, I feel that with you doing this you are doing nothing more then pushing the party line.
I am not passing anything off, I have read the books, I am not drawing the same conclusions that you are trying to tell me are the story. So far you have not done anything to convince me otherwise on how all of this was done to make things better, I see way to many loopholes, and you keep saying I am missing things, well to that I again say one sourcebook with NOTHING BUT THE FACTS, no news reports, nor extra bias stuff from one of the houses or other factions, just straight to the point facts about the WoB and their Jihad. Is that asking to much?
Telling me that their money and base of industry comes from Terra is not believable. I am sorry but if that was the case why didn't ComStar do what the WoB has done and launch this war 100 years ago? I can guess that is because they did not have the industry or base support to do it, and they didn't need to.
You can keep telling me I am wrong etc...but I am sorry that you feel the need to not listen to my points, the same points that have been either ignored, bashed or out right attacked by others on here to the point that it has gone personal. I am not the only one who dislikes the current storyline, I may be one of the more vocal about my dislikes, but hey that is life, I hear and see enough folks bashing Star Wars, or Star Trek or the Twlight movies and folks still go on supporting or playing the games, watching the movies etc...even the ones who are doing the bashing. All I am really asking for is that we get things straight, a set of books that actually tells us what is going on, like 90% of the older stuff did. Facts that give us how and why things happen. No extra BS, just the facts. Maybe next time you are talking with Randal and Herb you can bring it up, I think it would go a long way to clearing up things and might even get me to stop bashing this horrible storyline.
Can't hurt to ask.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/05/09 05:02 PM
64.134.154.8
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Great, I am wrong. Got it will make a note of it.
:rolleyes:
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/06/09 06:42 PM
123.2.140.247
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Either way I still don't like WoB.
My $2 worth
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Cray
12/06/09 07:31 PM
173.168.115.68
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Either way I still don't like WoB.
No problem. No one's going to like every faction. I was just aiming to clear up some misconceptions. If you have the right info and don't like a faction, that's cool.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/06/09 07:33 PM
72.178.75.99
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Which is fine.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/06/09 09:50 PM
123.2.140.247
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Just to clear up why i don't like them.
it's not anything to do with what resources they have or anything like that...
it's there outlook and extremist beliefs... and even that's not too bad
But the real kicker is there lack of honor
Which is the reason i live the Dracs and Clans
Sure there a bit extreme themselves sometimes
but all in all there honorable and you can have an honorable stand up fight with them
Just my thoughts.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
12/06/09 10:01 PM
72.178.75.99
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Fine with me, hate them, love them or what ever, as some failed to remember the game is big enough for us to have what feelings or dislikes or likes about any one thing or another and the fun part is none of us are wrong.
I have stated why I don't like them, folks disagree with my choices, they tell me I am full of it for picking those parts to disagree with or I don't know what I am talking about. Great, I really don't care if they agree with me, but what is clear is that the current story line along with the Click Based game and storyline to leave the game then can be said to have brought into it. I am sure some will tell me I am wrong on that thought as well seems they are quick to tell folks how they are wrong when questions come up or we the fans point out that we don't want second rate slop and expect better from the game and the writers, but again that is fine, both sides of the debate have their say and both sides are indeed correct if that is what they believe.
Your choices for not liking them are just as good as any I have.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/06/09 11:53 PM
173.168.115.68
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Just to clear up why i don't like them.
it's not anything to do with what resources they have or anything like that...
it's there outlook and extremist beliefs... and even that's not too bad
But the real kicker is there lack of honor
Look up Desert Storm or the US's battle tactics against Japan and Germany. All three used dishonorable advantages in air superiority to crush foes who, really, weren't the trouble of honorable war. Honorable in a chivalrous sense? No, not when children and women are being incinerated by the hundreds of thousands ('cept in Desert Storm, of course). Effective? Yes.
Similarly, WoB wanted to destroy rats, a dishonorable foe that lived for nothing but conflict and war. They planned to do so with nukes and cyborgs and WarShips to balance ultra-tech and genetic engineering. Dishonorable? Yes. Effective? Yes.
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Which is the reason i live the Dracs and Clans
The Clans don't have honor by the usual standards (plenty of honor by their standards, but not by traditional definitions). They're more an example of pride run rampant than anything. Sure, they restrict their battles, but it's more for personal glory - sort of like a pack of frat boys run wild under some chest-beating code of their own making than actually fighting with honor. Give them a little resistance and they'll claim it's entirely honorable to incinerate cities or obliterate planets to achieve peace.
"Rarg, me use ultra-tech and genetically engineered warriors to beat low tech, low skill foes. Rarg, that makes me honorable. Me cool because me invade random planets to prove me worthy of ruling Inner Sphere, rarg."
Nope. That's bullying and pride, not honor, IMO.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Christopher_Perkins
12/08/09 12:28 PM
138.162.140.54
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As for the border conflicts between the Clans and Houses, those were watered down via the PTB, to raids similar to what we all knew pre-Clan Invasion.
But Still enough to keep the Clans and houses distracted from the real enemy...
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One the uber army that popped up over night, 21 years is over night in the scheme of Battletech.
Not an Uber Army....
A small force on a Par with that of the ComGuard... maybe a little Tougher, but not able to really Conquer the Innersphere... This is why they failed, and were always going to fail...
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The idea that their having Terra and the Sol System gives them carte blanc on everything.
Star League had terra and had carte blanc
ComStar had terra and had carte blanc
Word of Blake had terra and had carte blanc
What has changed?
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The idea that they can afford to pay for, supply and man as well as replace things with ease.
no data that i have seen (and i have probably bought just as many jihad specific books as you have... or rather one more than you have... other than the one boook that I have no read nor do i really intend to, i have all of the new core rule books that have been released in PDF form... (including the RPG Beta)) indicates that they are able to supply or replace the units with ease... logistics for all forces in the universe are left out of the data... so there is no means to hold WOB trial for being uber on this issue...
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And the last one is how easy it was to hide from the prying eyes of people like Wolfnet, NAIS, MIIO, ISF, etc...
ROM has always been the Best of the intelligence services ... heck, for the longest time all the source books were in universe documents that ComStar Compiled with ROM information. Wolf Net was Second Best, and after the scism it was WOB ROM, WolfNet and COM ROM
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
12/08/09 12:55 PM
138.162.140.52
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Telling me that their money and base of industry comes from Terra is not believable. I am sorry but if that was the case why didn't ComStar do what the WoB has done and launch this war 100 years ago? I can guess that is because they did not have the industry or base support to do it, and they didn't need to.
Pre Feformation ComStar was content to be the power behind the throne... ReRead the Backstabbing and backbighting that these twistedly evil gits did in the Price of Glory, and the Warrior Trilogy... they only approached honor when they assisted Kurita in the heir to the Dragon.... and that is probably only because they had been infiltrated by an O5P adept
ComStar had precisely the Same resources that the Word of Blake inherited... and actually decided to put to use....
Not enought to successfully dominate the innersphere...
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All I am really asking for is that we get things straight, a set of books that actually tells us what is going on, like 90% of the older stuff did.
perfectly fine...
that is one thing...
Making Up things to hate about the universe as it is when even what little has been published or is common knowledge directly contradicts it is not.
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Facts that give us how and why things happen. No extra BS, just the facts. Maybe next time you are talking with Randal and Herb you can bring it up, I think it would go a long way to clearing up things and might even get me to stop bashing this horrible storyline.
What is so horrible about the storyline?
Small force that uses WMD and uses its intelligence assets to make itself a nusance from 3067 to 3081, POW escapes, forms a coalition force that effectively opposes the enemy instead of haring off against the the other houses when WOB intelligence interfears or misdirects retaliation for WMD Attacks.
Coalition Force gets concent to form new government of the war shattered area consisting of the Chaos march, Skye, and other regions as close to terra (from all but Liao, and they fail to win their territory back) Mech Control Laws in the Rotton Sphere (looks like I love the timeline... yup) that take military hardware out of the hands of civillians and nobles not participating in the government of worlds in the new government (under penalty of death) , but technology has advanced since 3067. With the slow fall of the republic of the sphere, the Dark Age/Age of destruction ends with the return of the Free Worlds League as a Viable Entity and a small rump state within a few jumps of terra that has collapsed in fear due to internal politics and adventurism on the part of the innersphere and Clan OZs.
I may have some details wrong... but nothing indicates the jagged jumps and swerves in the plotline that you claim exist....
I hate the Word of Blake, I hated ComStar before the reformation (and the jury is still out on post), have little Respect for the Republic of the Sphear...
But it is possible to hate the factions without claiming that the events do not flow or make little sense...
(If i was going to call foul... it would have been on the FCCW, but i know precisely what errors in judgement lead to it in universe... so I have no grounds to do so.)
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
12/08/09 01:41 PM
72.178.75.99
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Great, now I am making up things...sorry I am not making anything up.
But again I can see it has become pointless to have a negative opinion of the current storyline.
You and Cray both point out that the WoB used tech aviable and had the resources to do everything, yet the tech they used for the most part was level 3 tech, until the rules changed to allow them a lot of their wonder toys.
EI and other items out of Unbound were pretty much out of balance with the rest of the game, again level 3 tech. Then Somerset Strikers makes EI level 2, okay, but at a cost for the user, and then only die hard Clanners where using it.
Cybernetics, yes they have been around, but not to point that we had cyborgs running around the game. And given that the FWL is anti-cybernetic limb replacement, that can be found in FWL Housebook, I do find it interesting that they stayed allied with the WoB.
Weapon tech changes, we all know that, but this is Battletech things just don't happen over night and word does get around and folks go looking to see what they can steal or copy. Yet some how the WoB manages to do all of this advancement in technology and no one notices, and they start giving it away to their future enemies, under the idea of aid, yet are smart enough to build in safe guards that allow them to take over warships they sold to the FWL.
The novel IDEAL WAR, didn't make any major hints about the WoB having all of that great tech on Gibson, yet seems that did.
Again, I will point out my areas of concern, the money, sorry but I am not buying the argument that they could get all that have paid for via skimming the FWL for 80%, the factories to build the stuff, again an issue that is OVERDONE in Battletech. Finding a lost SL factory is great, having it in working order, not likely.
Yet everything the WoB managed to find, they were able to fix or it was still working...okay right.
Manpower, even with Terra, there is a limit on what they could filed for military strength, who is going to be doing the daily work of the government and the other civilian jobs if they are not there but out fighting the IS and Clans? Wait, merc units...only so many of them to really pick up, and ever failed unit can't be used to explain away their manpower.
Recruitment from the Periphery, okay, sure they could get some folks, yet how are they going to get them to their holdings in the Inner Sphere for training?
Which leads to my next point, Training, sure they could have folks who have worked with agromechs and other items but that is like saying if you know how to drive a tractor you can drive a tank, not the same, sorry. No military is going to drop you into a war machine and say okay go learn on your own. So where are the training bases?
Then big hurled that I just can seem to find away around and it isn't explained away, logistical issues. Their army, no matter the size, needs food and water, fuel, ammo, spare parts, new machines, new bodies, medical support etc...the same issues facing the other armies in the Inner Sphere and Clans, which are factors of cost and ability to do anything. Yet some how the WoB can do all that have done and this is not an issue. They can resupply, feed and maintain their units with out an issue, and do so even while fighting on multi-fronts.
You and Cray are quick to point out that they used regional issues to hide their attacks...okay that might work for a couple of attacks. But come on, none of the MI groups are going to buy that for more then three events. They will have folks on the ground doing their jobs, word (again the pun is not intented) would get out. Second by doing this, they are gaining what? No extra resources, no extra stagging areas...you two point out its' not a war of conquest, just punishment. Great, but again that doesn't explain away their moves to have worlds in a protectorate and under WoB run governments, that say conquest to me.
And then there is the bit about ALL of the Intel groups in the entire Inner Sphere missing the signs or misreading them to the point that they collectively don't do anything. You two have pointed out that most groups were worrying about the Clans and Internal groups, okay fair point, but they also managed to find time to watch and work against ComStar, yet some how they couldn't do this with the WoB. Sorry but I can't see that happening.
Then lets toss in the whole Dragoon attack on Mars, way out of character for them, losing Jamie or not, they wouldn't have gone off half cocked and went charging off at the Sol System.
But I guess my points here are just my making things up to bitch about the story and nothing more then an attack on the great folks who spent 5 years planning all of this, without anythinng tossed in from WK prior to their buying the rights, and we all should have seen this coming for years prior to this, cause it was hinted at from then end of the Clan Invasion. Funny the last Stackpole book about the Invasion stated that most of ComStar felt that any faction splitting off would wither and die due their inability to make spare parts and keep the HPGs running, I guess I misread the last chapters of LOST DESINTY.
And getting a couple of pages in a book filled with pages of fictional reports, aka news reports and editor comments to the writers, does nothing to convince me I am off track.
Again, how about you Cray convince TPTB that there is a need for a complete SOURCEBOOK with facts, dates, and info that we can all see and clearly understand that shows us HOW the WoB pulled all of this off. Is that asking too much?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/09/09 02:14 AM
71.215.56.126
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Karagin
12/09/09 10:01 AM
72.178.75.99
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Glad to know we can have a discussion like adults around here about something.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
12/09/09 12:07 PM
138.162.128.55
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Quote:
EI and other items out of Unbound were pretty much out of balance with the rest of the game, again level 3 tech. Then Somerset Strikers makes EI level 2, okay, but at a cost for the user, and then only die hard Clanners where using it.
The EI and the rest, are, to the best of my knowledge, still Experimental Rules technology... IOW, Still Rules level 3 with a new name (granted, some Rules Level 3 stuff was promoted to Standard or Advanced Rules, but EI and DNI didn't register as being so promoted)
and Manus Domini hardly qualify as average... More Like the Word of Blakes Answer to the Crusaders that alter themselves so freakishly... and I did not notice that the drawbacks of EI and DNI that make Mechwarriors using those technologies lack the chance of ever reaching true Elite Status...
Quote:
Cybernetics, yes they have been around, but not to point that we had cyborgs running around the game. And given that the FWL is anti-cybernetic limb replacement, that can be found in FWL Housebook, I do find it interesting that they stayed allied with the WoB.
Yes, it is quite odd...
But then again Thomas Marik is a Marik... and IDNR that Thomas Marik as "The Master" was ever contradicted...
Quote:
Weapon tech changes, we all know that, but this is Battletech things just don't happen over night and word does get around and folks go looking to see what they can steal or copy. Yet some how the WoB manages to do all of this advancement in technology and no one notices, and they start giving it away to their future enemies, under the idea of aid, yet are smart enough to build in safe guards that allow them to take over warships they sold to the FWL.
Which Tech did WOB Develop?
As for the warships... that is an example of how good their ELINT, and Computer Engineering is...
Quote:
The novel IDEAL WAR, didn't make any major hints about the WoB having all of that great tech on Gibson, yet seems that did.
not really sure what you are talking about?
Ideal war was written from a Knight of the Sphear's Perspective.. not one privy to the machinations of Word of Blake for all being set primarily on gibson...
Quote:
Again, I will point out my areas of concern, the money, sorry but I am not buying the argument that they could get all that have paid for via skimming the FWL for 80%, the factories to build the stuff, again an issue that is OVERDONE in Battletech. Finding a lost SL factory is great, having it in working order, not likely.
Money has always been poorly handled in BattleTech
Found Factories,
Found Warehouses, etc,
Staples of BattleTech...
Quote:
Yet everything the WoB managed to find, they were able to fix or it was still working...okay right.
point about the over use of Deus Ex Machina in BattleTech... but nothing that makes Deus Ex Machina for WOB especially egregious (Bad)
Quote:
Manpower, even with Terra, there is a limit on what they could filed for military strength, who is going to be doing the daily work of the government and the other civilian jobs if they are not there but out fighting the IS and Clans? Wait, merc units...only so many of them to really pick up, and ever failed unit can't be used to explain away their manpower.
Mainning of the Military in the InnerSphere is much less than the per capita manning of the military... and if you factor in Police + Military get the percentage of the population that way, then it gets even worse, even factoring in the number of House Military (Stars), Regional Millitia (almost Never written About), Planetary Millitia (Even Less), Noble House Militaries, House Police Forces, Regional Police Forces, Planetary Police Forces, and Nobles or Municipalities Police Forces. the Bleed off from all over the InnerSphere that made ComStar such a quiet Power House is still feeding both the Word of Blake and ComStar.
Quote:
Recruitment from the Periphery, okay, sure they could get some folks, yet how are they going to get them to their holdings in the Inner Sphere for training?
How do the worlds that require imports of food to even subsist survive at all?
The Recruitment from the periphery of Pirates for ROM is more because pirates do not concern themselves with niceties such as human rights, etc... and that dates from, well, at least the Warrior Trilogy.
Quote:
Which leads to my next point, Training, sure they could have folks who have worked with agromechs and other items but that is like saying if you know how to drive a tractor you can drive a tank, not the same, sorry. No military is going to drop you into a war machine and say okay go learn on your own. So where are the training bases?
Training Bases are probably on the five? worlds that ComStar managed to hide from the InnerSphere
That Being Said, Training is the only bottleneck that really applies to Manpower...
Quote:
Then big hurled that I just can seem to find away around and it isn't explained away, logistical issues. Their army, no matter the size, needs food and water, fuel, ammo, spare parts, new machines, new bodies, medical support etc...the same issues facing the other armies in the Inner Sphere and Clans, which are factors of cost and ability to do anything. Yet some how the WoB can do all that have done and this is not an issue. They can resupply, feed and maintain their units with out an issue, and do so even while fighting on multi-fronts.
again, a failing of the authors in general rather than something specificly uber about WOB... logistics is often only a factor in logistics when it is being used as a reason for a unit to go rogue, or jump house affiliation.
Quote:
You and Cray are quick to point out that they used regional issues to hide their attacks...okay that might work for a couple of attacks. But come on, none of the MI groups are going to buy that for more then three events. They will have folks on the ground doing their jobs, word (again the pun is not intented) would get out. Second by doing this, they are gaining what? No extra resources, no extra stagging areas...you two point out its' not a war of conquest, just punishment. Great, but again that doesn't explain away their moves to have worlds in a protectorate and under WoB run governments, that say conquest to me.
The Word of Blake protectorate was a quiet take over for the most part and of territory that was disorganized by the Marik-Liao Offensive against the Federated Commonwealth, and the main overt act was the sacking of Outreach that predated the bulk of the Jihad... and even then it was viewed as a private conflict between the Wolf Dragoons and their old Enemies...
Cray has said that the Forces were over the Capitol Worlds as an Award for the anticipated ratification of the Word of Blake as a full member of the Star League, and possibly a renewed offensive to kick the clans out of the InnerSphere Entirely... This would place the Manus Domini as originally having been geared for Anti-Crusader action.
When the Star league was terminated so suddenly, WOB Freaked out and haphazzardly and indescriminately bombarded, sacked, and or used WMDs on the capitols and other strategic Targets...
Quote:
And then there is the bit about ALL of the Intel groups in the entire Inner Sphere missing the signs or misreading them to the point that they collectively don't do anything. You two have pointed out that most groups were worrying about the Clans and Internal groups, okay fair point, but they also managed to find time to watch and work against ComStar, yet some how they couldn't do this with the WoB. Sorry but I can't see that happening.
Not sure that the Houses were carrying out a covert war against ComStar at this point... ComStar was part of the coalition that eventually put the World of Blake down
Quote:
Then lets toss in the whole Dragoon attack on Mars, way out of character for them, losing Jamie or not, they wouldn't have gone off half cocked and went charging off at the Sol System.
Given bad intel (IOW, assuming that Mars was Tertiary instead of WOBs primary installation...) not really surprised that they got their heads handed to them... nor am i surprised that they made the attempt, nor am i surprised that it took years for ComStar and the Remants of the Wolf Dragoons to get the Innersphere actually Working together
Anton Marik kills Dragoon Civillians... Anton Marik winds up dead with a surgical strike by the Black Widows Forces
House Kurita kills Dragoon Civillians... Misery Happens... a meat grinder that it took the Wolf Dragoons decades to recover from
Word of Blake Kills Jamie Wolf using Cats Paws and other undesireables... The Assault on Mars happens... Without Jamie, Without Good Intel, a reconnisance in force gets trashed
Quote:
And getting a couple of pages in a book filled with pages of fictional reports, aka news reports and editor comments to the writers, does nothing to convince me I am off track.
Not really interested in the news books either... i only have one... and am probably not going to get any more of them...
but that mishandling has nothing to do with the things that do not fit with what is publisly known...
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
12/09/09 05:10 PM
72.178.75.99
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Thank you for the input, I will read it over again, here in the next few days and I will post my comments.
And thank you for discussing this, so far it has been informative.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/21/09 10:10 PM
123.2.140.247
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Quote:
again, a failing of the authors in general rather than something specificly uber about WOB... logistics is often only a factor in logistics when it is being used as a reason for a unit to go rogue, or jump house affiliation.
Operation Bulldog anyone? Logistics were talked about there... specifically how good they were.
But your right they do seem to be left by the wayside often.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
12/22/09 12:01 AM
72.178.75.99
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Talked about then forgotten, by the time of Operation Serpent, the idea of worrying about supplies and the rest fell back to a mere footnote for TPTB.
Some times it seems, at least to me, that one or more of the writers reads or sees something about an aspect of warfare, it sounds really cool, they jump all over it, then it gets old and boring to them and they go off to find something else to add to the game or their next story.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
12/23/09 03:31 PM
138.162.140.54
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Quote:
Some times it seems, at least to me, that one or more of the writers reads or sees something about an aspect of warfare, it sounds really cool, they jump all over it, then it gets old and boring to them and they go off to find something else to add to the game or their next story.
Game, Set, Match
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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