MechTheDane
02/28/10 05:05 PM
129.123.213.74
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Is anyone ever a little upset the way things turned out?
Century after century the Inner Sphere is mired in the same kinds of bs. You've got these generally selfish feudal lords banging against each other forever hardly ever actually giving a glance to the real issues of their citizens unless they need to do it for political reasons. You have the first Star League, which for a while was leading to something better...but by the end became a tax burden and political tool of a handful of selfish royalty.
And then after that it's just business as usual, some realpolitiking here, some family issues there, border skirmishes etc
Every so often a few family members from a specific House turn out to actually be decent people and suddenly you're supposed to feel for them. Oddly enough, a plethora of these lovable Housies seemed to just show up not long before the clans showed up. Just in time legitimize their cause.
Then you have the Clans, who IMHO represent a breath of fresh air..to everything. Instead of Feudal political systems that were created by barely educated, malnourished dictators in early earth middle ages of oh lets say around 1000 AD (or CE if you're like that) you get a a unique and totally new political system. Yes it has a few names that attempt associate it with the Mongol Horde, but thats just superficial. A new society, who in many ways are ethically superior (not just genetically) to one they wish to supplant.
Nick Kerensky had seen first hand what the noble 'heir's to the Star League were capable of, he saw how the old world worked and how people were nothing more than cannon fodder to push the agendas of a few selfish leaders. And he created a system that transcended that. Where the people were given the power to refuse a direct order, or a ruling, or a fact of life. Where soldiers and civilians lives weren't thrown away at the flip of a coin, but instead everything was done to minimize the amount of loss. And finally where battles were fought cleanly, honorably, and openly.
Perhaps that dream was absurd, perhaps he hoped humans to be better than they ever could aspire to be, but at least he dared to dream it. Unlike the successor state lords who loved things as they were, the peachy status quo.
And yet, everything conspires against the clans. If they would have invaded in the year 3000, victory would have been all but certain...yet they end up waiting 50 years.
Just as they attack..after hundreds of years in darkness the Inner Sphere just comes across an entire library that conveniently updates everyone and thing. Early Inner Sphere victories are all won entirely by chance, they just happen to kill ilKhan Leo Showers, the Falcon Guards get buried in rubble on Twycross, I'm sure there are other similar examples.
Suddenly before the clans are barely able to conqueror anything more then token amount of territory (skim the more or less unimportant sides of the DC and Lyran, plus take the totally unimportant and forgettable rasalhuage republic). Even many of the major engagements are won against the clan because of 'luck' like the Jade Falcons on Tukayyid it literally says "a lucky strike" that takes out their depot is the whole reason they lost their trial. Or the ComGaurds managing to stop the Nova Cats from re-equipping..but really even any of that possible just because the Wolf ilKhan was working against their interests..
However, there could be a possible reason for this..even as the clans attack they become the "other" that gives all the Inner Sphere a reason to rally together. They could have became the catalyst that restores the Star League. With the Federated Commonwealth and the stanca march and all that going on already, perhaps this was the purpose of the clan. The old SLDF returning to make the ultimate sacrifice so that their beloved SLDF could be made whole once more.
So..okay..steps are made towards that. A new 'SDLF' is created..and while not quite up to the standards of the original, perhaps in time they will work there way there. But no. This doesn't happen. Instead the new 'SLDF' apparently has one single function, to defeat the clans. The moment the clans are neutralized..rather than continuing to evolve into a new better entity, it totally collapses. Hell even the FedCom collapses. So now after all this work we just end up with a more fractured universe then we started, more of the same old status quo, and basically nothing to show for the clans other then a few uninteresting regions of space no one cared about (they couldn't even break ONE Inner Sphere House!)
But no we're not done yet, because then we have the Warden Clans. Specifically Clan Wolf. I don't find fault with their beliefs, if anything I personally believe Clan Wolf sort of follows the path laid down by Aleksandr Kerensky, where as say the Jade Falcons follow Nick Kersensky's path. But those wolves...they just undermine everything.
They are so determined to "save" the inner sphere from the Clans. Save? These planets have been tossed around by greedy leaders who could care less about them for centuries! How is living in crummy feudal states any better then being a part of a clan? How different is one ruler from the next? How much worse was Ghost Bear for the Rasalhague?
I don't see any clear evidence, especially after the succession wars that the Inner Sphere is in anyway more worthy of leadership than the Clans. They don't even pretend to be interested in the will of the people.
How many refugees flee to the periphery to avoid the conditions in the Inner Sphere, only to later be harassed by the Great Houses?
So okay, maybe the clans weren't meant to conquer the Inner Sphere. Maybe they were supposed to let a handful of incredibly corrupt and greedy families continue to exclusively dominate the lives of the majority of humanity. That thats just how humans are and the Clans had a greater calling, to protect the Inner Sphere from 'outside' forces.
I'm pretty sure someone had visions of things attacking the Inner Sphere not related to the clans. So ya know, maybe this will happen. Okay, the elite guardians of the Inner Sphere are the Clans. But then.. this never happens. Nothing comes from the deep periphery to annoy anyone. The Jihad was a joke. The clans have nothing to Ward over, unless that includes keeping the current House Lords in power.
Which leaves the actual practice of the warden clans as being quite unreasonable. I don't see how they can really legitimize that position anymore. But the thing is, they thought it when it counted and again through almost luck were able to keep the Jade Falcons from invading again.
Until we get into the 3060's and beyond..where everything reverts pretty much back to where we started. After all the hope the clans brought with them..they get dashed in the name of the status quo.
It just seems like great events happened, the beginning of a hero cycle that would at last shatter the status quo... and instead the only hope for change is quickly muted and the universe returns right back to where it was. At which point it seems from a franchise viewpoint that things lost steam and petered out.
Big surprise.
Sorry for the long post, this has been bugging me for a while. What do you guys think? Do I have a right to rage? or am i totally off?
Edited by MechTheDane (02/28/10 05:40 PM)
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Prince_of_Darkness
02/28/10 06:44 PM
71.215.35.57
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Personal opinion is personal opinion. I can't really call bullshit on what you believe, but I can correct the inaccuracies.
Saying that the Successor Lords, for instance, kept fighting each other because of the "Status Quo" is one inaccuracy. The successor lords began fighting because they wanted to control the Star League, and kept fighting because of old grudges- look at the recent "Operation: Sovereign Justice" by George Hasek, whose entire point was really spurred on by his hatred of the Confederation and his desire for the Saint Ives Compact.
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MechTheDane
02/28/10 07:11 PM
129.123.213.74
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Yeah you don't have to worry, I am not gonna take anything personal here. If I need correcting lets correct me.
I may be misunderstanding you, but I think i was trying to say that fighting was that status quo. Not that they fought to maintain that status quo?
The people who are actively maintaining that status quo would either be ComStar or the writers.
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Prince_of_Darkness
02/28/10 07:38 PM
71.215.35.57
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Yeah you don't have to worry, I am not gonna take anything personal here. If I need correcting lets correct me.
Oh, that's fine.
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I may be misunderstanding you, but I think i was trying to say that fighting was that status quo. Not that they fought to maintain that status quo?
I'm not totally sure, but I think it is a mixture of both. A lot of the older fluff, for instance, gives the appearance that there is a sort of status quo, that was really spurred onwards by the hard-line, pro-war military members. However, a lot of it still comes down to grudges and personal honor- remember how the Federated Commonwealth was made? And how the call for peace was sent out everywhere, and was only answered by one person?
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The people who are actively maintaining that status quo would either be ComStar or the writers.
Yeah, they would be the biggest ones. Comstar, obviously, since they had several ploy's to try and control the Inner Sphere, and the writers for obvious reasons.
It ain't peacetech, here!
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Karagin
03/01/10 12:13 AM
80.149.45.102
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I think you are right, but then again I have been labeled a naysayer and doom bringer for pointing out the issues with the current storyline.
The Powers That Be and were have lost sight of what the fans want on a lot of levels. But as you can already see, some of the more rabid supporters of the current BS are already jumping to defend it. I am glad you are speaking out and will support your stance and do not let the those want as you nicely put it "status quo" to stay. Change is not bad, the bad comes from HOW they went about doing it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/01/10 10:23 AM
205.202.120.210
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I think you are right, but then again I have been labeled a naysayer and doom bringer for pointing out the issues with the current storyline.
The Powers That Be and were have lost sight of what the fans want on a lot of levels. But as you can already see, some of the more rabid supporters of the current BS are already jumping to defend it. I am glad you are speaking out and will support your stance and do not let the those want as you nicely put it "status quo" to stay. Change is not bad, the bad comes from HOW they went about doing it.
It's kinda funny how you are the only person i've met across 4 different CBT boards that has a problem with catalyst. To make it all the funnier, you are the only person to take it to these extremes- which is why you have been "labeled" (if you can even call it that).
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MechTheDane
03/01/10 03:39 PM
129.123.213.74
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heh I understand its not peaceteach, and you can't just usher in a new era of peace that leaves all the players idle.
I just thought that the way things were heading, the landscape of the story was going to be forced to evolve into something new, fresh and bold. A change triggered by the return of Kerensky's heirs, which always seemed like the ultimate ace in the hole for universal change, a game changer in the pockets of the developers in the years prior to announcement of their return and assault.
But instead of really changing, the universe reverted in on itself. And now we don't even have to return of Kerensky to look forward to to shake things up anymore. Like I said in original post it's not like the House Lords have ever really been that great towards their citizens, some of Ulric Kerensky's philosophies about protecting the inner sphere from the clans isn't really reasonable. They get stuck controlling some a bunch of mostly innocuous worlds barely better than periphery, and considered just a minor raiding threat. Heck, they are even losing their identity..the Inner Sphere is making them more Inner Sphere.
(oh please forgive me, as i turn the clans into a single character)
It reminds me of a broken Hero Cycle as explained by Joseph Campbell.
In many stories a hero has to travel to the underworld, or just a place that is entirely unlike the place considered normal.
You have a golden age where everything is good, then as things go bad the incorruptible son or soldier escapes beyond the influence of that evil in a strange self-imposed exile where alone the same shallow reasons tore his home apart begin to work break him. Driven to desperation he finally breaks past those shallow arbitrary nationalistic barriers and sees the truth of who he is and what he is. This point in the story is basically a vision quest. They even are given Animal-Guides in order to help them keep to the path (Touman). At which point the soldier still in exile becomes whole.
He has gotten what he needed from his exile, the boon, it is now his calling to return to the Inner Sphere with it.
Like I said before he doesn't have to conqueror them or succeed. This could be a 'tragedy' the knowledge he gained while not among men could be too potent and they too distant to hear it. So they murder him, and destroy every ounce of the clans..but in the process change themselves and become something better. I'm not trying to say the clans have to be better, that they have to be the solution. But they could be righteous sacrifice of the last righteous illuminated aspect of the Star League whose fall unleashes change in everyone else that would have been impossible had they lived.
Or they win, or they part way win. The point is the story was heading for something, here was to be the ultimate confrontation. When there is too much Status Quo the universe creates a Hero in order to break it.
All these years these Houses, these lords, ruled over humanity savagely and finally their chickens were coming home to roost.
As you read the material leading up to this, you can feel it! You know something at last is happening, you know that the universe shall never be the same. The Kerensky's have returned, and no matter who wins the future will be a brave new world.
But even as it almost reaches these heights, as Clan Nova Cat and all the Houses join to create the SLDF.
It all crumbles. It was like the writers/developers themselves got cold feet. They didn't want a brave new world and decided to retreat back to things we knew.
A position that was totally anathema to the story, and the hero cycle it was attempting to bring to fruition.
Which is why after that point the story seems to lose a lot of its power. (and fans) Rather then following its path towards completeness it was interrupted mid-transformation and now hobbles around incomplete and broken.
Edited by MechTheDane (03/01/10 05:20 PM)
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Karagin
03/01/10 04:40 PM
80.149.45.102
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What they got was fear of other games, they say the market falling, they had made bad business moves, like selling off FASA Interactive without really thinking it through all the way, they had allowed certain folks too much rein on the Internet and that bit them in the butt, add in the Internet and everything changed for them. Yes they cycled things and recycled things, at the same time they tried to mimic world events, the Chaos March is nothing but a bad copy of the Balkans and events in that part of the real world. Interesting in the overall idea, bad on the follow through.
Having peace in the game isn't a bad thing, raids still could have happen, but that didn't bring dollars into the company so they had to keep pushing out new stuff, and well you can see where that got us, repeating older plots and bad writing as well an over all storyline that had and has way too many holes with half answers to fill them in with.
Also if you look at things, a lot of the books read as if someone got this really neat idea after watching a program on some aspect of warfare and boom we have this "new" approach to things and the IS kicks the snout out of the Clans, funny how the Jaguars make all these "mistakes" and the IS can do everything perfectly to capitalize on their mistakes. Then when things had all the makings of a mix of Clan vs House Lords vs each other vs House Lords, you know a return to the pre-Invasion time frame, what happens a convent re-set with the Word of Blake attacking the IS and Clans with their uber weapons and warriors. Didn't we just see this movie back in 3052 when the Clans hit the Inner Sphere in mass? Yes I think we did.
All of that aside, lots of things went into the making of what we now call Battletech and the biggest thing that I think caused them to rush head long into what we have is the Internet and the dying off of pen and paper games. BT is a complex game, gone are the days of running a simple game that lasted a couple of hours or so, now with all the weapons and rules it can take a day or more to really enjoy a game. With the pushing of computer games and the Internet making it easier for fans to share ideas and comment on the products in all manners and shapes, they weren't ready to deal with this kind of change to how things were done. Add in other issues out side of the gaming world aka real life, and you can see how quickly they needed to keep things moving forward to make money. Lots of folks aren't happy with the stories or plots that have come out since 1998, lots of folks have out grown BT, moved on. Some haven't, others feel that if you question the current storyline in any manner that is not praising it, then you are automatically wrong and are to be at the least ignored or at the worst attack every chance they get to do so, take a look around this board and you will see that. That too added to folks leaving the game.
So really what we are seeing is a game that we all love to play becoming something a aging antique, still has a lot to offer, just folks have lost the how and the why to do a lot of things and are more worried about what they can get out of it in the hear and now. Yes the storyline can be fixed, but they are too welded to the current stuff as well as the stuff forced on to the game via the "future events" as given to us in the Mechwarrior Click Based game by WizKids. That too caused issues and problems and upset folks, since it to focus away from Battletech as it was and tried to change it into something else. Again when folks pointed out their dislikes they got attacked, not only by the friends of the powers that be, but folks who were part of the powers that be, like a certain main line writer who flat out stated if it wasn't for him their would be no Battletech, well the storyline might not be there, but I think the game would have been there. Prior to all of this FASA closed down, lots of folks saw this as the end of BT, stores didn't carry the stuff any more, many still don't, and then when Wizkids bought the rights and all, they really didn't buy it to keep BT alive at the rate it was, it was more a push for their game MECHWARRIOR.
All of this adds up to a game struggling to keep its' place in the industry. Times keep changing, folks want instant fun, not something that needs hours to setup and then hours to play. They want the tools make new mechs with all the cool tech now, not when the designer can finish it and be happy with giving us the best. Your last line does indeed sum things up. In fact many folks have gone back to playing only in the time frame of 3025 or with the Clans just showing up or ignoring the current storyline all together. And as much as some want to attack those folks or call the ones, like me, who point out the issues wrong or naysayers, really all they are doing is forgetting that this game is about having fun, making friends and enjoying a hobby. BT will continue whether or not it is official put out or not, it has a strong fan base of support, and given how much is out there on the Internet about the game and peoples ideas and their spin on things and their added power blocks and groups, the game has taken on a life of it's own. That is something we all need to remember.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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MechTheDane
03/01/10 07:53 PM
129.123.213.74
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I suppose that makes sense I will have to say one place I've always thought the BT franchise shined was in video games.
I don't know how you guys really feel about the games but they are what got me here in the first place.. Mech Warrior 2 just blew my young mind. (I've noticed you guys don't even have Mech Assault mentioned anywhere on the Wiki)I was really hoping that Smith & Tinker would see it through. Perhaps reboot the series and this time actually do things differently. ( I mean if the Star Trek reboot can nuke Vulcan, who says the Mech Warrior reboot can't shake things up as well)
If anyone can get the money and momentum to inflict change I'd say it was would be this corner of the universe.
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Karagin
03/02/10 03:03 AM
80.149.45.102
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The Wiki is taken care of by a different group then those of us who normally post here.
The videogames were a logical step for the game, in some ways they brought the game into the public eye, in other ways it added another level of complexity to the over all idea of Battletech. Toss in the cartoon, for good or bad, and you have some of the same thing.
Contrary to popular belief, I have no issues with the company running Battletech, my issue is with the direction the universe has gone and how quickly they are to write off things that folks have come to like or for some relate to. And when asked about it assine comments come back like "You should have picked a better faction" or similar insulting comments to the fan base. But then again I guess when someone points out issues in the hope of getting things fixed and they are ignored at best or ridiculed at the worst, it is clear to see that all any one on the inside wants to hear is how wonderful things are.
I agree that if they could get the video game going and actually reflect the board game and its' universe better, then it would be a sure fire hit on all levels.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/02/10 11:02 AM
147.160.136.10
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Is anyone ever a little upset the way things turned out?
Yes, I could never get behind the Clans. The high-minded defenders of the (supposedly) greatest civilization mankind has ever produced, the Star League, ran off with an eye toward mitigating the upcoming wars. Then the SLDF-in-exile returns as...chest-thumping techno-barbarians? Guys who explicitly, flagrantly think might makes right and code that into their justice system? A Clan warrior can get away with literal rape and murder and avoid punishment with a quick combat trial.
The Clans are folks who deliberately suppressed the standard of living amongst their civilians (Clan laborer caste average lifespan: 56 years. Inner Sphere average lifespan: 89 years.) They suppressed capitalism and entrepreneurial efforts (see "Warriors of Kerensky SB," economics section) beyond anything the 20th Century European Communist managed, even suppressing all "unnecessary" economic activities - and with advanced industrial technology, very few people are needed to staff "necessary" activities. Which means most of the economy was suppressed, so there was little money to grow or thrive; instead, the Clan population stayed lean and hungry and deprived, just like Nicholas wanted.
The Clans were definitely something different but...well, they didn't out like the Return of the SLDF I was expecting.
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Instead the new 'SLDF' apparently has one single function, to defeat the clans. The moment the clans are neutralized..rather than continuing to evolve into a new better entity, it totally collapses. Hell even the FedCom collapses. So now after all this work we just end up with a more fractured universe then we started, more of the same old status quo,
Right. BattleTech is a war game. If you have a period of relative peace (e.g., 3030-3050), then you need to skip past it quickly ("20 Year Update") to the fractured, war-generating parts so the players can have their battles and campaigns.
[edit] To quote the line developer, Herb Beas: "Conditionally. I have no qualms kicking the favorite faction in the crotch--repeatedly. But the fact of the matter is, I prefer to kick EVERYBODY in the crotch as often as possible, like a game of whack a mole, only here's it's whack a crotch. Because we're playing in a wargame universe, and if you're NOT getting kicked in the crotch (repeatedly), then you're not in the ****** game."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (03/02/10 12:16 PM)
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/02/10 12:00 PM
205.202.120.210
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heh I understand its not peaceteach, and you can't just usher in a new era of peace that leaves all the players idle.
On the contrary. The opening to Dark Age, for instance, was fraught with covert operations against the other houses.
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I just thought that the way things were heading, the landscape of the story was going to be forced to evolve into something new, fresh and bold. A change triggered by the return of Kerensky's heirs, which always seemed like the ultimate ace in the hole for universal change, a game changer in the pockets of the developers in the years prior to announcement of their return and assault.
Don't you find that a little too "Mary-sue"-ish? Arguments against Victor Steiner-Davion and Devlin Stone aside (they are both essentially the same, anyway) don't you think that suddenly getting a single character to fix everything to be a poor idea? And what would they be fighting against, anyway? Would this 'Kerensky' of yours be fighting for the clans, or against them? And after that, what would we have?
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But instead of really changing, the universe reverted in on itself. And now we don't even have to return of Kerensky to look forward to to shake things up anymore. Like I said in original post it's not like the House Lords have ever really been that great towards their citizens, some of Ulric Kerensky's philosophies about protecting the inner sphere from the clans isn't really reasonable. They get stuck controlling some a bunch of mostly innocuous worlds barely better than periphery, and considered just a minor raiding threat. Heck, they are even losing their identity..the Inner Sphere is making them more Inner Sphere.
Part of that "reversion" was from the fans that didn't like the clans. To many, the clans were a move to bring new fans into the game (because you had a more 2-dimensional opponent now), but they were doomed from the start anyway- The clans would never remain "the clans" for long, either. Once defeated, it was only a matter of time before they began to mirror the IS, especially with all the captured freeborn. Hell, even if they "won", they would still face reprisals and battles for independence for centuries (remember the FRR?).
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(oh please forgive me, as i turn the clans into a single character)
It reminds me of a broken Hero Cycle as explained by Joseph Campbell.
In many stories a hero has to travel to the underworld, or just a place that is entirely unlike the place considered normal.
You have a golden age where everything is good, then as things go bad the incorruptible son or soldier escapes beyond the influence of that evil in a strange self-imposed exile where alone the same shallow reasons tore his home apart begin to work break him. Driven to desperation he finally breaks past those shallow arbitrary nationalistic barriers and sees the truth of who he is and what he is. This point in the story is basically a vision quest. They even are given Animal-Guides in order to help them keep to the path (Touman). At which point the soldier still in exile becomes whole.
He has gotten what he needed from his exile, the boon, it is now his calling to return to the Inner Sphere with it.
Out of order for the clans. It's all the bad shit first, basically the stuff right after the exodus, and then the good appears. Besides, the idea of returning to the Sphere and correcting it's ways had been there since they decided to camp out on a few worlds.
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Like I said before he doesn't have to conqueror them or succeed. This could be a 'tragedy' the knowledge he gained while not among men could be too potent and they too distant to hear it. So they murder him, and destroy every ounce of the clans..but in the process change themselves and become something better. I'm not trying to say the clans have to be better, that they have to be the solution. But they could be righteous sacrifice of the last righteous illuminated aspect of the Star League whose fall unleashes change in everyone else that would have been impossible had they lived.
Your first problem here is believing that the Star League was righteous- the reunification wars showed just big of a deouchebag the SL could be, made all the worse by the propaganda that destroyed the periphery's appearance to the rest of the sphere for centuries. And where is this "murder" part coming from? Nicholas's death was an accident since we learned how the clans were formed, and it has never changed.
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Or they win, or they part way win. The point is the story was heading for something, here was to be the ultimate confrontation. When there is too much Status Quo the universe creates a Hero in order to break it.
All these years these Houses, these lords, ruled over humanity savagely and finally their chickens were coming home to roost.
Like Victor Steiner Davion?
It's funny how that is one of the beginning portrayals of the Word of Blake in the Jihad.
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As you read the material leading up to this, you can feel it! You know something at last is happening, you know that the universe shall never be the same. The Kerensky's have returned, and no matter who wins the future will be a brave new world.
But even as it almost reaches these heights, as Clan Nova Cat and all the Houses join to create the SLDF.
It all crumbles. It was like the writers/developers themselves got cold feet. They didn't want a brave new world and decided to retreat back to things we knew.
Or maybe it was because they knew it would end the universe or would completely alienate their fanbase.
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A position that was totally anathema to the story, and the hero cycle it was attempting to bring to fruition.
Which is why after that point the story seems to lose a lot of its power. (and fans) Rather then following its path towards completeness it was interrupted mid-transformation and now hobbles around incomplete and broken.
Sorry, I gotta call bullshit. Making such a drastic change there would do what you said- lose a lot of the fans of the game, and demolish it's power. Saying that it "hobbles around incomplete" and whatever is also a complete lie- CBT has one of the biggest backstories ever, and is one of the few tabletop games that actively explores other past stories while keeping an eye towards the canon of the future.
Oh, and CBT has more fans now than it did back in the Clan invasion years; so, yeah, it didn't really lose a lot of fans at all.
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Prince_of_Darkness
03/02/10 12:02 PM
205.202.120.210
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Everyone needs to stop replying with the "Huge walls of text". Seriously; TL;DR.
And, just for the record, I really don't like the clans either.
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Karagin
03/02/10 12:11 PM
80.149.45.102
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I think the point he is driving at Cray is that something better then a repeat of same thing over and over was needed. We see the same thing with Republic of the Sphere, or as some have called Star League Part 3, it come into being has all the hallmarks of fixing everything and then falls apart again...same song, same dance.
Jihad can be compared to Amaris's attack on the Terran Hegemony, just sub in the major IS powers for the places attack by the Rim Worlders in the SL time/era. Again same song and dance.
But hey what do I know, after all I have this huge beef with everything and I guess that by point out the dislikes I am in the wrong for standing my ground. So take what you want from it.
Peace can be there in the game, it can be used to allow the players to catch up and get a handle on things and then pop the new stuff. But that means a status quo of the same stuff and no new products to some, yet it would be a good chance to get new books on past events and expand on things with having to worry about new content for the forward push...lots of stuff in the BT history if it's not all ret-conned into being something related to ComStar or the WoB.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
03/02/10 12:17 PM
147.160.136.10
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I think the point he is driving at Cray is that something better then a repeat of same thing over and over was needed.
Fair enough. If you blur out the fine details, yes, there are some cyclic features to BT history.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Zandel_Corrin
03/02/10 05:59 PM
123.2.140.247
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I think the point he is driving at Cray is that something better then a repeat of same thing over and over was needed.
Fair enough. If you blur out the fine details, yes, there are some cyclic features to BT history.
I think what your missing here guys is that war IS just the same old same old with newer guns...
While some tactics may have changed over the years war is still basically the same... and that's in real life where tech has been advancing rapidly...
In battletech while it seems like tech is going forward fast it really isn't... there are no new machines or major new weapons... even LAMs the one thing that could have changed the face of battle completely... failed.
When you have this level of technical stagnation then each battle is going to be very much the same and the way things are done is going to be very much the same...
The IS and Clans have had hundreds of years to come up with new battle plans and yet they really have done nothing...
I'm not surprised that things just keep going around and around again. Not that i wouldn't like to see some change.... it's just not all that likely right now.
BTW Cray... that edited quote from above... CLASSIC! Love it!
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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KitK
03/02/10 10:49 PM
142.165.26.253
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my light-weight 2-cents is that I empathize with what you are saying. I was definately dissappointed that the bright spots (to me) like Fed_Com came to such and ugly end, or the Exiles (wolves) have amounted to nothing, and all the criminals go unpunished (Lady of Darkness Steiner for one). Of course it can't be all warm and fuzzy, but none?
The continual state of war, with no conflicts ever seeming to resolve anything, is kind of depressing. Maybe too much like reality. The high moral ground of, say the Star Trek Federation, is kind of nice to fight from rather than the continual shades of gray.
Nonetheless, Cray's point is well taken, it is a game about war. So, I guess I don't let it get to me and just concentrate on my mech designs. I find the backstory interesting, but its not why I like to play.
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Rotwang
03/13/10 08:08 PM
78.23.10.207
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At one point the BT universe was one of the most interesting out there, incredibly dynamic and detailed. But the needs of the game got in the way of real development. You couldn't have a house defeated or fall apart without a lynching mob of rabid fanboys picketing the front door. So you're stuck with an endless loop of big non-events, where ascendancy irrevocably leads to downfall, but always just enough to retain the status quo. Every house since 3025 has either been on the brink of defeat or at the top of the game, but nothing has ever really changed. For every "benevolent" character that tries to win the game, some other force appears to oppose him/her at every step.
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MechTheDane
02/10/11 03:29 AM
70.103.197.39
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Ah it's February again, guess I need to post.
Apparently this month makes me long for Mech Warrior. Not really sure why that is.
Anyways, I agree with that Karagin said about how miraculously the Smoke Jaguar's make all these mistakes while the other group reacted perfectly and ingeniously. Goes along with the whole 'luck' portion of my post.
I see Prince of Darkness made a lot of replies to my response, so I'll just deal with those...now.
The quoted black is what I said, the quoted red is what he said, the non-quoted black is my newest response! Easy =D
Quote:
heh I understand its not peaceteach, and you can't just usher in a new era of peace that leaves all the players idle.
On the contrary. The opening to Dark Age, for instance, was fraught with covert operations against the other houses.
I wasn't saying that the Dark Age was PeaceTech; just that I understood the need for war in the game. And that I didn't expect the clan invasion, no matter what the outcome, to suddenly become a happy warless land. Like you said later, should they have succeeded there would still be lots of FRR-like rebellions.
Quote:
I just thought that the way things were heading, the landscape of the story was going to be forced to evolve into something new, fresh and bold. A change triggered by the return of Kerensky's heirs, which always seemed like the ultimate ace in the hole for universal change, a game changer in the pockets of the developers in the years prior to announcement of their return and assault.
Don't you find that a little too "Mary-sue"-ish? Arguments against Victor Steiner-Davion and Devlin Stone aside (they are both essentially the same, anyway) don't you think that suddenly getting a single character to fix everything to be a poor idea? And what would they be fighting against, anyway? Would this 'Kerensky' of yours be fighting for the clans, or against them? And after that, what would we have?
Kersensky's 'heirs' are obviously the clans, not a specific individual. The Inner Sphere would be fixated on the clans (As they were) and the clans could easily be the catalyst to new order. In my opinion the clan's were supposed to be the anthropological 'other'. They were an outside threat that could unite the warring Houses, and be the impetus for change. Political and Social.
Quote:
But instead of really changing, the universe reverted in on itself. And now we don't even have to return of Kerensky to look forward to to shake things up anymore. Like I said in original post it's not like the House Lords have ever really been that great towards their citizens, some of Ulric Kerensky's philosophies about protecting the inner sphere from the clans isn't really reasonable. They get stuck controlling some a bunch of mostly innocuous worlds barely better than periphery, and considered just a minor raiding threat. Heck, they are even losing their identity..the Inner Sphere is making them more Inner Sphere.
Part of that "reversion" was from the fans that didn't like the clans. To many, the clans were a move to bring new fans into the game (because you had a more 2-dimensional opponent now), but they were doomed from the start anyway- The clans would never remain "the clans" for long, either. Once defeated, it was only a matter of time before they began to mirror the IS, especially with all the captured freeborn. Hell, even if they "won", they would still face reprisals and battles for independence for centuries (remember the FRR?).
I liked the clans. (surprise) I guess other people didn't. True the Inner Sphere ways could have infected the clans (and are) but my point is not about what in-eventualities may have came to pass. But the missed opportunities in not using the clans to their full potential.
Quote:
Like I said before he doesn't have to conqueror them or succeed. This could be a 'tragedy' the knowledge he gained while not among men could be too potent and they too distant to hear it. So they murder him, and destroy every ounce of the clans..but in the process change themselves and become something better. I'm not trying to say the clans have to be better, that they have to be the solution. But they could be righteous sacrifice of the last righteous illuminated aspect of the Star League whose fall unleashes change in everyone else that would have been impossible had they lived.
Your first problem here is believing that the Star League was righteous- the reunification wars showed just big of a deouchebag the SL could be, made all the worse by the propaganda that destroyed the periphery's appearance to the rest of the sphere for centuries. And where is this "murder" part coming from? Nicholas's death was an accident since we learned how the clans were formed, and it has never changed.
The Star League was not righteous, but I think what it stood for and what it had the capacity for in the mind of Aleksandr Kerensky was righteous. He took his piece off the board, rather then see it corrupted and used as a tool by the greedy House Lords. His Great Hope was that one day his piece would return to the board in order to fulfill his lofty, righteous aspirations.
The 'man' who is 'murdered' in my metaphor is the Clans. They could have brought to the Inner Sphere a powerful message that the people weren't yet ready to here, the people in fear/ignorance kill them. In the act of killing them they change and realize the error of their ways. (Think Messiah)
I was just saying that the clan by no means had to 'win' or even survive! They could have all been destroyed; as long as they altered the status quo and changed the nature of the system their purpose would have been fulfilled.
Quote:
Or they win, or they part way win. The point is the story was heading for something, here was to be the ultimate confrontation. When there is too much Status Quo the universe creates a Hero in order to break it.
All these years these Houses, these lords, ruled over humanity savagely and finally their chickens were coming home to roost.
Like Victor Steiner Davion?
It's funny how that is one of the beginning portrayals of the Word of Blake in the Jihad.
Yeah Victor Steiner-Davion would count as a hero. But so would the clans. Something generated by the Universe to break the status quo. They can be good, evil, or even one dimensional...so long as they succeed at altering reality.
Quote:
As you read the material leading up to this, you can feel it! You know something at last is happening, you know that the universe shall never be the same. The Kerensky's have returned, and no matter who wins the future will be a brave new world.
But even as it almost reaches these heights, as Clan Nova Cat and all the Houses join to create the SLDF.
It all crumbles. It was like the writers/developers themselves got cold feet. They didn't want a brave new world and decided to retreat back to things we knew.
Or maybe it was because they knew it would end the universe or would completely alienate their fanbase.
Seems like they did a decent job of that doing things their way..
Quote:
A position that was totally anathema to the story, and the hero cycle it was attempting to bring to fruition.
Which is why after that point the story seems to lose a lot of its power. (and fans) Rather then following its path towards completeness it was interrupted mid-transformation and now hobbles around incomplete and broken.
Sorry, I gotta call bullshit. Making such a drastic change there would do what you said- lose a lot of the fans of the game, and demolish it's power. Saying that it "hobbles around incomplete" and whatever is also a complete lie- CBT has one of the biggest backstories ever, and is one of the few tabletop games that actively explores other past stories while keeping an eye towards the canon of the future.
Oh, and CBT has more fans now than it did back in the Clan invasion years; so, yeah, it didn't really lose a lot of fans at all.
I guess that's your opinion, but I still stand by mine.
They were on verge of breaking past the old paradigms and embarking on a new approach. I think lots of people felt (and still feel) the pervasiveness of that unreached potential. A nagging sense of story incomplete and future unfulfilled that lingers to this day
Disagree with me if you want, but if you really want to tell me right now is the hay-day of BT and it's better than ever.. I'd like a puff of whatever you are smoking friend.
Edited by MechTheDane (02/10/11 03:51 AM)
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rider
02/10/11 11:55 AM
198.212.99.11
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My own answer to the origional question, "...am I disappointed how things turned out.." in the BTech world, the answer is yes. How the BTech world evolved into its current form, has for me at least fallen flat. The origional sourcebooks in my opinion took a great deal to produce from a creative standpoint. This built a great foundation to the game.
I have to agree with others who've posted that don't see the Clans as a fun story adaptation. I only have a passing knowledge of how things developed beyond the FedCom civil war and really gave up paying attention to anything of the background story when the MechWarrior Dark Ages, Jihad, whatever started up.
I suppose its safe to say the BTech world and its evolution speaks differently to different generations. I liked the origional Inner Sphere, a sci-fi reflection of the world we lived in the 80s/90s. The rich history built in the sourcebooks I think rooted hardcore players who just didn't want to role dice and move figures on the table. The clans in my opinion were a decline in a well thought out history. I definitly agree with the comment made that they are a 2-dimensional addition to the game. From a philosophical view, I agree with the comments that the whole clan society, N. Kerensky's vision, were horrible for a way of life. A repressive caste system that holds others unequal and falls into the way of thinking that man will always make war, so why not make war for war's sake. Down right evil I thinnk.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/10/11 01:45 PM
68.29.88.110
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It would take me some hours to read everything here but to cut to the chase I find it resalable.
All you really need to do is look back in our history and see that its human nature to not only to fight but for the powerful to exploit the weaker. There is noting noble about how humans act.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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MechTheDane
02/10/11 02:58 PM
70.103.197.39
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Quote:
I suppose its safe to say the BTech world and its evolution speaks differently to different generations. I liked the origional Inner Sphere, a sci-fi reflection of the world we lived in the 80s/90s. The rich history built in the sourcebooks I think rooted hardcore players who just didn't want to role dice and move figures on the table. The clans in my opinion were a decline in a well thought out history. I definitly agree with the comment made that they are a 2-dimensional addition to the game. From a philosophical view, I agree with the comments that the whole clan society, N. Kerensky's vision, were horrible for a way of life. A repressive caste system that holds others unequal and falls into the way of thinking that man will always make war, so why not make war for war's sake. Down right evil I thinnk.
Aye, Cray probably summarized that line of thought pretty well. That instead of Clans being the next step towards the universe wide catharsis we thought BTech was heading for, they were actually the first step in the wrong direction. Not to mention, if this were true, they didn't do justice to the 'Return of Kerensky' event fans had been waiting for..(with baited breath).
You could very well be right, maybe I am just attached to my 'generation' of Btech, that began with the Clans.. playing Mech Warrior 2. Mmm Refusal War.
Good points, can't really disagree with them. As an Anthropologist I always found the culture of the Clans very interesting, refreshing, and exciting. But I guess to someone else it could easily be evil...
Perspective!
Edited by MechTheDane (02/10/11 03:00 PM)
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EdmondDantes224
12/29/13 09:23 PM
172.242.213.55
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Quote:
heh I understand its not peaceteach, and you can't just usher in a new era of peace that leaves all the players idle.
Here's what I don't understand:
Why not?
I mean okay, let's assume it went differently and the second Star League had stuck around... would it really have ended Battletech, at all?
I mean, to use a comparison: Mobile Suit Gundam has precisely one conflict (The Feds vs the Duchy of Zeon), which ended after two years. Now, just look at how many anime, how many manga, and (relevant to our point) how many GAMES have been made out of just that ONE war.
I could similarily point out Lord of the Rings, which, again, had only ONE war of the ring. Funny how that hasn't stopped people from role-playing in that setting, prevented publishers from making games about it (how many "Battle for Middle-earth" games are there now?) All this from one book.
Admittedly I'm probably speaking out of my ****, since I'm not exactly well-versed in Battletech lore beyond what you can get from reading a Wiki article (I know what Word of Blake is but I don't have enough knowledge of the finer details to know what issues it supposedly has... in fact I'd like for people to tell me), but it just seems to me like its another conventional western belief that things only stay interesting if you can make them drag out forever, even though fiction has proven time and again that this is not true.
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MechTheDane
03/01/14 04:54 PM
50.160.23.254
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Quote:
Quote:
heh I understand its not peaceteach, and you can't just usher in a new era of peace that leaves all the players idle.
Here's what I don't understand:
Why not?
I think Battletech was made in a such a way that people expect/want a Universe constantly at war. Furthermore they want it at war with units and factions they recognize.
The Clan Invasion Era is pretty much Btech's "War of the Ring" though. I don't think any other era is as popular or as well known. And, really, why shouldn't it be? That is when the Classic Battle Tech Novels were rolling out at full force, when the Mech Warrior games were at peak saturation, and BattleTech centers were cropping up around the world.
And, personally, I think the post-invasion era universe loses a lot of its appeal by not being able to really embrace any of the cathartic possibilities within the Invasion era. Real change doesn't happen.They couldn't even let Hanse/Melissa-> Victor's legacy happen.
But, I think, as bad as the post-invasion timeline is, it is probably better than a peaceful timeline. People want Succession Wars =D and their ilk!
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Karagin
03/01/14 06:02 PM
70.118.139.48
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Since this was bump and I missed a couple of things.
Prince of Darkness, I do not have an issue with Catalyst Games Labs, what I have an issue with is folks who are associated with them in either an official level or semi-official or claims to be friend with TPTB and speak out against someone having opinions and attacks them openly on public non-official boards and on official boards, so by not letting them get away with being bullies over their rabid defense of the game system and the changes made, one does get labeled and I have not noticed you on other boards unless you go by different names on those.
I read a book for a class I was taking and it was about marketing, it said that the front person for a company and or the public leadership of the company are the ones who have to deal with the good, the bad and the ugly of their marketing choices. If they upset their customer base and drive it away, then they will not be in business for very long. If they try to please everyone one again they will fail and be out of business. The best they can hope for is a mix of good and bad and ugly in that they stay loyal their customers, keeping them as happy with their product as they can and they treat each complaint with the same level they treat each "Wow you are amazing etc..." complement. If they fail at that then folks will lose interest and move on to other things/products.
Allowing folks like Stackpole to make comments has he did at Origins or online via his webpage, and given that he was and is linked to Battletech, along with no one stopping friends of the PTB from commenting and using that friendship as a shield lends to the part that the company and it's leadership at the time had lost control of things and couldn't do anything to stop the collapse. If they are so afraid or hurt by folks not liking things and being vocal about it, then they should have presented a better product. And their allowing their friends, whom they also allowed to be free-lance writers/contributers too, to comment as if they had the full backing and support of the LD, when in fact they more then likely did not, leaves room for people to see that there are issues.
But Prince of Darkness if in your opinion feel that by pointing issues is being venomous and mean well I guess that you only expect us the fans to blindly follow and support products without wanting things better or more entertaining.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 06:22 PM
172.56.39.144
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Its been a almost year and a half since PoD posted anything. He might not be around anymore.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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