Wrangler

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KitK
03/26/10 02:08 AM
142.165.26.253

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I needed a little diversion, so I decided to post this, which came from a bigger diversion, in which I decided I needed another 50 ton mech. I decided it should be a jack-of-all trades but master of none with a distinct anti-infantry capacity. i think I got the AI part. Not sure about the rest.

I suppose in some ways it’s just a big Panther with AI toys. But I'm not seeing anything quite like it at 50 tons in the Succession era. It has a higher BV than I would have guessed, compared to the others of the era. Its also kind of expensive. I suspect that the higher BV and extra C-Bills come mainly from the 250 engine (200 is more common).

Code:

Wrangler 250

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Production Year:
Cost: 4,379,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,188

Chassis: Standard
Power Plant: 250 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 53.75 km/h (5)
Maximum Speed: 86.0 km/h (8)
Jump Jets: Yes
Jump Capacity: 150 meters (5)
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 PPC
1 SRM-4
2 Flamers
3 Machine Guns
Manufacturer:
Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 83 points 5.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 250 12.50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5 (Standard)
Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT 2.50
Heat Sinks: Single 10 0.00
Gyro: Standard Gyro 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 160 10.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 21
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 12 16
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 8 16
L/R Leg 12 20

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SRM-4 LT 3 1 2.00
@SRM-4 (25) LT - 1 1.00
3 Machine Guns LA 0 3 1.50
2 Flamers LA 6 2 2.00
PPC RT 10 3 7.00
@MG (1/2) (100) LA - 1 0.50
Free Critical Slots: 31

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 5 Points: 12
5j 2 0 0 0 2 2 Structure: 4
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SOA



CYBRN4CR
03/26/10 08:00 AM
71.236.221.45

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Why have both flamers and mgs? Seems a little overkill to me. Personally, I would exchange the mgs and ammo for another srm4. Or if heat is an issue, keep the mgs and exchange the flamers for the srm. Now hopefully you won't find yourself being surrounded and needing to fire all your weapons constantly, as you only have enough HS to cover the ppc and will suffer the -1MP in such scenarios. If that is the case, you could drop the engine to its more common 200 rating, saving you some tonnage (hopefully enough for a few heatsinks and maybe more mgs and armor). The cost savings wouldn't hurt either.

Hope that helps.
Karagin
03/26/10 09:34 AM
80.149.45.102

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Let's see...flamers can start fires easier then anything else in the game.

As for your comment on the HS, most players are not Alpha Strikers, in other words MOST are not going to be blasting away with everything. THAT only works in the video games, it does not work in the board game and many players lump folks who do that all the time in the same grouping as munckin players or power gamers.

Overall the mech KitK has made fits well enough in a 3025 game setting or even in a current Jihad era for a world that doesn't have all the high tech wonder toys. It is a decent mech, that is very good for new players to use to learn HOW to manage both heat and ranges.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KitK
03/26/10 01:19 PM
142.165.26.253

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Quote:

Seems a little overkill to me.




Yeah maybe a little, but. . .
- In my stable this is a second line mech that, if nothing else, can at least kill infantry. So it is a primary design feature.
- Whenever I have fooled around, dumping a bunch of infantry into MegaMek, I have found large numbers and the variety of infantry to be pretty hazardous. And, it would be nice to try to take out a platoon or two (multiple targets) in one round.
-The abisimal range of the flamers and MGs mean lots of misses, compounded by this being a second line mech for me, which means the pilot will be 4/5 or worse.
-Fragmentation rounds in the SRM just can't waste infantry fast enough for me (though it might be safer range wise).

Quote:

only have enough HS to cover the ppc



and
Quote:

most players are not Alpha Strikers




I'd have to admit I like a good alpha strike mech, and I am usually happy to sacrifice having more weapons, flexibility, and even crit-seeking ability to get heat efficency. But I have found doing this to be far too impractical for level-1/Succession Wars era mechs. I've been designing mainly for this era for a couple of years now and it is slowly changing my habits regarding alpha strike ability, max armor, and heat balancing options. In this case if you do fire it all, and planned carefully, you can jump out to safety and a cool down.
Karagin
03/26/10 03:45 PM
80.149.45.102

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Quote:

I'd have to admit I like a good alpha strike mech, and I am usually happy to sacrifice having more weapons, flexibility, and even crit-seeking ability to get heat efficency. But I have found doing this to be far too impractical for level-1/Succession Wars era mechs. I've been designing mainly for this era for a couple of years now and it is slowly changing my habits regarding alpha strike ability, max armor, and heat balancing options. In this case if you do fire it all, and planned carefully, you can jump out to safety and a cool down.





Having the ability to fire everything can be a good thing when it is balanced out, BUT most of the power gamers and munchkin players do not take that bit of info into their thinking, they want to win and that is all that matters. You can build a mech with all the different tech levels and still have it building up heat and not have it be a horrible or worthless mech, plus knowing and understanding some basic tactical uses of the mech and its' weapons can go a long way to making up for any or all short comes of the design, something again power games and munchkins do not understand or fully grasp.

Level 1 era of weapons and tech is a tough one to play in, BUT it can be one of the most exciting eras to have battles and moments to talk about years down the road, mainly because you had to win using skill of moving and know when and what to fire to take down your opponent.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CYBRN4CR
03/26/10 04:17 PM
71.236.221.45

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@Karagin

Let's not start that discussion up again shall we? I'm just reminding him that movement penalties start at 5 heat so he has to be mindful, or modify his design.

@KitK

Well, if the srm isn't that important to the design you could scrap that and have a few extra HS while keeping the flamers and mgs. Or you can replace the flamers with an additional 3mgs and upgrade the mg ammo to a full ton, but that's your call.


Edited by CYBRN4CR (03/26/10 05:45 PM)
Karagin
03/26/10 04:51 PM
80.149.45.102

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Which discussion would that be Cyber? There is no need to change the over all design just to get extra heat sinks, the mech does the job well enough, and I will stick with the point that a decent player can work around the heat issue without having to go the route of the munchkin or power gamer and over sink a mech.

The SRM has the ability to use Inferno rounds, which are quite deadly to infantry and well just about everything else the mech could run into, so I would say that the SRM is indeed important to the mech.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CYBRN4CR
03/26/10 11:14 PM
71.236.221.45

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Quote:

The SRM has the ability to use Inferno rounds, which are quite deadly to infantry and well just about everything else the mech could run into, so I would say that the SRM is indeed important to the mech.




Correct. Inferno rounds make SRMs very nasty against pretty much everything the mech could possibly go up against. But it depends on the rule set KitK is using. Since the mech is listed for tournament legal rules, and not introductory rules, he does have the option for inferno rounds, and I agree that would be the better direction.

Now, I was simply providing some alternatives. One alternative exchanges the flamers or mgs for an extra SRM. Under introductory rules, this would mean a reduced AI presence, but greater effectiveness against larger targets. Under tournament rules, this would actually increase the presence as the inferno rounds allow for greater range than the mgs. The other alternative allows the mech to still have a good AI presence while not having to worry about firing its ppc the same turn (by having an all mg loadout paired with the ppc and SRM). Either of these modifications can be performed without changing the engine, which if reduced would save about 5.5-6 tons. If 4t was converted to HS, the mech would have the ability to jump and fire without having to worry about hiding and cooling off. The extra tonnage could then be converted to armor and maybe another SRM (with two mgs being removed). Plus it's cheaper. Best of all worlds IMO. Below is my suggestion.

Code:
Wrangler (suggestion) 

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-E-D
Production Year: 3025
Cost: 3,626,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,100

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 200 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.5 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 PPC
2 SRM-4s
4 Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 83 points 5.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 200 8.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 (Standard)
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 2.00
Heat Sinks: Single 14 4.00
Heat Sink Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT
Gyro: Standard Gyro 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 168 10.50

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 24
Center Torso (rear) 7
L/R Torso 12 17
L/R Torso (rear) 7
L/R Arm 8 16
L/R Leg 12 24

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PPC RA 10 3 7.00
2 Machine Guns RT 0 2 1.00
2 Machine Guns LT 0 2 1.00
2 SRM-4s CT 6 2 4.00
@SRM-4 (Inferno) (25) LA - 1 1.00
@MG (200) LA - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 26

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 11
4j 2 1 1 0 2 1 Structure: 4
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SOA, SRM 1/1/0



These are all different takes, and in the end, it's up to KitK to decide what is best for his mech.


Edited by CYBRN4CR (03/27/10 12:52 AM)
Zandel_Corrin
03/28/10 06:48 PM
123.2.140.247

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Problem there is you have just lost that 5 8 5 speed set that 'Could' have been a major requirement of the design.... personally I think the original design fits better into 3025 era tech... yours seems like a 3050 era without the tech.... and that's not always a good thing.....

Remember as the eternal mech trainer Sgt Unthur once said

"In real combat speed is life. You go slow, you die.

...

..

.

And for those of you who didn't get the reference... shame on you >>> it's Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
CYBRN4CR
03/28/10 10:41 PM
71.236.221.45

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Correct Zandel. Speed is important for survival. I was just going on KitK's comment that 200 engines are more common for the era, and that it was expensive. So I built a config within those constraints that still keeps the BV around the same level.

Now if the engine was a critical part of the design, he can always try my suggestions that don't require changing the engine by switching the flamers for an extra srm with inferno ammo, or three more mgs and upgrading the 1/2 ton ammo to a full ton.
KitK
04/02/10 01:58 AM
142.165.26.253

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Well, I've been mulling this over and trying it out a bit too. So, let’s see what I think, hmmm.

First, Zandel, I read it too fast, and I had a picture near the beginning of Total Warfare with a similar message in my head. So, I am ashamed to say I totally missed it. For as many times as I played that freaking mission . . . and played in the online leagues! Sheesh not excuse on that one.

Next, we got engine size. Cost concerned me. But I did some numbers and it’s only about a half million C-bills off the average. So, that's not so bad. The speed issue was interesting. How valuable is it really? By BV, Sgt. Unther, and the image on page 8 of Total Warfare, its pretty blame important. On the other hand, from what I am reading, infantry doesn't take target speed into account. So, it doesn't help in that aspect. In the end, I don't think the speed loss is worth a mere SRM-4 and some heatsinks for this mech.

Now, on to the inferno upgrade. This I tried with 2 SRM-4 suggestion - exchanged the MGs, kept the flamers. Interesting, very interesting. It performed well and meant you could usually keep up the attrition. Against Mechs, well I kind of botched it up initially in a single test against a Centurion CN9-A, but it was pretty easy to get the ammo to blow up. My own overheat was manageable (keeping the speed helped that). "Tournament Legal" for the era seems to allow infernos; "Introductory" does not. Both build out as a Level 1 in Megamek, which does not allow it. You have to go Level 2. If in a scenario you could use them, and you knew that this mech would have infantry killing duty, or even anti-armor duty, by all means, load up the infernos. But the flamers still rule for taking out the infantry quick.

The related question is: is the SRM even essential to the mech, especially in a non-inferno use setting? Conceptually, yes. The mech is suppose to be a generalist with a niche, not a strict specialist. So, a Hunchback is all short, a Centurion is medium to long with back-up lasers to replace the LRMs in close. The Wrangler is in the middle. A PPC for long-range, and SRM that complements the PPC at short range or the AI with special ammo (Inferno or Fragmentation if permitted. And, the flamer/MGs for infantry.

If there are non-essential weapons I'd say they were the MGs. Really just a heat control measure that lets me shoot. I might be better off with another flamer and an extra heatsink.
CYBRN4CR
04/02/10 09:22 AM
71.236.221.45

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*claps*

You did well, friend. You found your own solution based on everyone's input. Now go kill some infantry!
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