Kenjiro65
05/13/10 01:41 AM
121.127.192.90
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Adhering to the fiction for this mech, I have created a cheap light mech for use in Urban fighting using only Level 1 rules and equipment. I have kept a long range weapon as per the UM-R60 for sniping. For my design, I took into account, that Urban fighting will most likely be with Infantry and Vehicles (including Mechs), so I had to balance the weapons to cover both scenarios.
Designation STF-1D Street Fighter
Weight 30 tons
Internal Structure 3 tons
Engine Fusion 90
Jump Jets 3
Walk 3
Run 5
Jump 3
Gyro 1 ton
Heat Sinks 13
Armour 6.5 Tons
Weapons Load out
1x Large Laser
2x Medium Laser
2x Small Laser
1x Machinegun with 0.5 tons ammunition
Mech has 2 arms complete with Hand actuators
Cost 1598740 (roughly 10% more than my calculated value for a UM-R60 which is 1448525)
BV: 537
Reasons why I think the STF-1D is a better than the UM-R60 Urban Mech,
If the main weapon is damaged, the STF-1D is still able to do decent damage, the UM-R60 is a walking target
If the UM-R60 is knocked over, it has no arms to right itself and becomes a target
UM-R60 has 10 shots before it is a walking target
If an infantry unit is in a medium building with a CF of 30, then the UM-R60 requires 3 shots to clear the building in comparision to 2 with the STF-1D
To destroy an infantry platoon not in a building but not in a clear hex, requires 3 shots from the UM-R60 in comparison it takes on average 1 shot for the STF-1D
The STF-1D can jump Level 3 buildings where as the UM-R60 cannot
UM-R60 Vs STF-1D
Long Range 15 Hexes 15 Hexes
Damage(long) 10 8
(medium) 10 18
(short) 13 26 vs non Infantry, 26-36 vs Infantry
Can anyone think of changes that would make this better?
I did try using a Fusion 120 engine, but it became too expensive to meet the cheap requirements, also the weapons load out had to be significantly reduced.
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CYBRN4CR
05/13/10 08:19 AM
71.236.221.45
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Yes! Take out that trash! 
Have you considered having twin flamers instead of the two smalls and mg? I don't mind if you wanna keep the smalls, just get rid of that bloody mg. I've seen too many otherwise pristine mechs die due to mg ammo explosions... be they from falls or combat damage. Horrible way to die. 
Besides you've already outshone your competition in damage so it's not too much of a loss.
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Prince_of_Darkness
05/13/10 12:12 PM
205.202.120.210
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Quote:
Adhering to the fiction for this mech, I have created a cheap light mech for use in Urban fighting using only Level 1 rules and equipment. I have kept a long range weapon as per the UM-R60 for sniping. For my design, I took into account, that Urban fighting will most likely be with Infantry and Vehicles (including Mechs), so I had to balance the weapons to cover both scenarios.
Designation STF-1D Street Fighter
Weight 30 tons
Internal Structure 3 tons
Engine Fusion 90
Jump Jets 3
Walk 3
Run 5
Jump 3
Gyro 1 ton
Heat Sinks 13
Armour 6.5 Tons
Weapons Load out
1x Large Laser
2x Medium Laser
2x Small Laser
1x Machinegun with 0.5 tons ammunition
Mech has 2 arms complete with Hand actuators
Cost 1598740 (roughly 10% more than my calculated value for a UM-R60 which is 1448525)
BV: 537
Not bad, but because those small lasers would only kill off one dude, they aren't needed.
Quote:
Reasons why I think the STF-1D is a better than the UM-R60 Urban Mech,
If the main weapon is damaged, the STF-1D is still able to do decent damage, the UM-R60 is a walking target
Eh, I'll give you that. While it can still kick and jump on shit, loses it's ability to fight mostly without the autocannon.
Quote:
If the UM-R60 is knocked over, it has no arms to right itself and becomes a target
Not in-game. The Urbanmech can still get up, even though it basically has turret's for arms. This also allows it to fire behind itself, something which is a major boon in a city.
Quote:
UM-R60 has 10 shots before it is a walking target
Like above, it can still do some stuff, but not as much.
Quote:
If an infantry unit is in a medium building with a CF of 30, then the UM-R60 requires 3 shots to clear the building in comparision to 2 with the STF-1D
But he could also Kick it (3 points) and use the small laser ( 3 points), so not necessarily.
Quote:
To destroy an infantry platoon not in a building but not in a clear hex, requires 3 shots from the UM-R60 in comparison it takes on average 1 shot for the STF-1D
You are wrong on both points. The shot from one gun that does not have an anti-infantry capabilities (not MG's, flamers, or SPL's and their itinerations) can only kill one dude, or for every 10 points of normal damage taken. So, the Urbanmech can kill off 2 dudes normally.
While your street fighter has an MG (which is better than what Cyber thinks) the most it could kill (without being in a clear hex) is 12 guys. While you could bump it up with all the other guns, your looking at, at most 15 guys or so.
Quote:
The STF-1D can jump Level 3 buildings where as the UM-R60 cannot
Correct.
Quote:
UM-R60 Vs STF-1D
Long Range 15 Hexes 15 Hexes
Damage(long) 10 8
(medium) 10 18
(short) 13 26 vs non Infantry, 26-36 vs Infantry
As I said above, this reasoning is flawed. Looks like your using older rules, but i'm not sure what kind.
Quote:
Can anyone think of changes that would make this better?
Keep it at 3/5/3, but remove the hands and lower arms. Remember, the Urbanmech was supposed to be dirt cheap and simple (the reasoning for the Autocannon- I think servicing barrels would be easier than cleaning laser optics) and this would also allow you to pivot your arms all the way around. Then, replace those small lasers for more Machine guns, and move two to the arms and one to the rear center torso while keeping the ammo to 100 rounds.
Still cheap, but now it's less ammo-based and has some major anti-infantry capabilities while being faster.
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Almighty
05/13/10 02:36 PM
91.48.195.225
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Well, the urbanmech with the ACA/20 is pretty effective. Yes, it has low ammunition but with low armor it won't last long anyway.
I had once a similar design but it's really not worth it:
Type/Model: City Hunter CYH-01A
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 1, Standard design
Mass: 30 tons
Chassis: ChocoLite Standard
Power Plant: 90 Starfire Fusion
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: 3 Pitban 6000 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 90 meters
Armor Type: Tritin Standard
Armor Factor: 105 pts Standard 7.00
Armament:
1 Large Laser
1 Small Laser
1 Flamer
1 SRM 2
1 SRM 2 ammo 1t (50 shots)
Heat Sinks: 12 Single
Manufacturer: Van Co.
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: Inter-D
Targeting & Tracking System: Con-Trac A
Total Cost: 1,537,575 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 671 (old BV = 518)
Type/Model: City Hunter CYH-01B
Armament:
2 Medium Lasers
1 Small Laser
1 Flamer
1 SRM 2 ammo 1t (50 shots)
1 SRM 6 ammo 1t (15 shots)
Total Cost: 1,637,675 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 670 (old BV = 510)
The large laser isn't useful in a city so it was replaced with medium ones for more power.
The two srm are for better flexibility against troops or mechs. Who cares about collateral damage? The city is going to be destroyed either way, also enemies will bring collateral weapons anyway.
Version B has more alpha strike power, endurance and armor.
Quote:
Remember, the Urbanmech was supposed to be dirt cheap and simple (the reasoning for the Autocannon- I think servicing barrels would be easier than cleaning laser optics)
Actually, it takes longer to clean cannons. If future laser optics have protective layer they won't need cleaning. The problem is they are more prone for damage.
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Karagin
05/13/10 03:13 PM
80.149.45.147
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Uhm, how is the Large Laser not useful in a city? It has no minimum range, it has decent heat to damage potentiality and it has decent range to play sniping attacks that would be very useful in a city. Not following your logic on this idea of the LL not being useful.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Almighty
05/13/10 03:40 PM
91.48.195.225
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Line of sight. I like it realistic. Also mediums are better to combine with the srms for better strikes.
Having two weapons also increases hit chance, since you roll two times, which gives a 2/4 chance instead of 1/2 chance. At average you get one hit at worse there is no difference.
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Prince_of_Darkness
05/13/10 05:19 PM
205.202.120.210
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Quote:
Uhm, how is the Large Laser not useful in a city? It has no minimum range, it has decent heat to damage potentiality and it has decent range to play sniping attacks that would be very useful in a city. Not following your logic on this idea of the LL not being useful.
Nobody said the LL wasn't useful; I only suggested that it would be harder to keep working, since it's more high-tech than what essentially is a tank cannon.
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Kenjiro65
05/14/10 02:59 AM
121.127.192.90
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Quote:
You are wrong on both points. The shot from one gun that does not have an anti-infantry capabilities (not MG's, flamers, or SPL's and their itinerations) can only kill one dude, or for every 10 points of normal damage taken. So, the Urbanmech can kill off 2 dudes normally.
While your street fighter has an MG (which is better than what Cyber thinks) the most it could kill (without being in a clear hex) is 12 guys. While you could bump it up with all the other guns, your looking at, at most 15 guys or so.
According to Classic BattleTech Master Rules Revised Edition (2004 Hard cover FanPro edition), Page 62, section on Attacks Against Standard Infantry, I Quote:
Standard infantry platoons take damage in much the same manner as mechs; attackers fire on infantry as normal units using the appropriate modifiers, and infantry units take damage equal to the Damage Value of the weapon.
No where in this section of the rules does it mention 1 shot 1 kill, it quite clearly states the damage inflicted by the weapon is the number of kills.
I accept that I did not take kicking into account when I was working out the damage, so another 3 points can be added, so the new damage is 16 vs Building for the UM-R60 (10 for the AC, 3 for the Small Laser and 3 for the kick), where as it 29 for the STF-1D and 29 to 39 against infantry not unarmoured and not in a clear terrain.
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Kenjiro65
05/14/10 03:05 AM
121.127.192.90
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I did look at Flamers, but the problem I saw, was that you could end up wearing the fires you started. Also if the city is your city, you really dont want to be rebuilding it everytime someone drops to the planet. With my mech, building damage is minimalised, because only the building where the infantry unit is, is damaged, not the neighboring buildings if the fire spreads.
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Kenjiro65
05/14/10 03:14 AM
121.127.192.90
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I did look at dropping the Large Laser, but as the Urban Mech had a long range weapon, I decided to keep that same principle.
My non large laser version became more of a munchin mech, which was something I was not trying to build, and the PPC version became too expensive, along with the problem associated with short range.
The current design allows me to hit targets at all ranges, increasing the damage at each bracket significantly. It is not specifically used to hunt infantry, vechiles or mechs, but can hold its own against all of them.
My Battle Value was calculated using the rules in Classic BattleTech Master Rules revised, so I am not certain which version this is.
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Almighty
05/15/10 01:24 PM
91.48.203.92
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Well, in the original BT for machine guns you do a 2D6 for damage against infantry.
Later, with light/medium/heavy MGs the rolls changed. Flamers now are burst weapons and get 4D6 rolls.
Anyway, the problem with light mech is their low free tonnage for weapons. When you make them for all ranges their firepower is lost due to heavier weapons having greater percentage of the free tonnage. Also you will have less damage distributed over all ranges. Mobility is key for their survival and use of weapons.
The urbanmech is used for defending, often in cities. Realistically this means the last line of defense. There are no front line mechs to help out. Your troops will be in building. It's less likely you will see enemy troops yet, but enemy front line mechs. And they will destroy your troops buildings. Even if you hold back damaging building they will get destroyed.
Since it's front line mechs against urbanmech, the urbanmech is always outgunned at any range. That why I think maximizing mobility and firepower and use LOS is more important than having all ranging weaponry.
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Kenjiro65
05/22/10 10:47 PM
203.129.44.61
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What rules are you using to get 4D6 against infantry? The rules I have (Classic BattleTech Master Rules - Revised Edition) only cover Machine Guns as Infantry destroyers.
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Almighty
05/23/10 12:09 AM
91.48.205.65
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The new rule for the flamers with 4D6 rolls are in Total Warfare p.217 in the
'Burst-fire weapon damage vs. conventional infantry table'
for BattleMechs, ProtoMechs and Vehicles:
--------------------Weapon Damage vs. Conventional Infantry
AP Gauss Rifle 2D6
Light Machine Gun 1D6
Machine Gun 2D6
Heavy Machine Gun 3D6
Small/Micro Pulse Laser 2D6
Flamer 4D6
for Battle Armor:
Light Machine Gun 1D6/2 (round up)
Machine Gun 1D6
Heavy Machine Gun 2D6
Flamer 3D6
Light Recoilless Rifle 1D6
Medium Recoilless Rifle 2D6
Heavy Recoilless Rifle 2D6
Light Mortar 1D6
Heavy Mortar 1D6
Automatic Grenade Launcher 1D6/2 (round up)
Heavy Grenade Launcher 1D6
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Karagin
05/23/10 08:59 AM
80.149.45.147
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ALL BT weapons need line of sight to hit, and if used in an indirect fire mode, the need of a spotter is then called for.
So again how does dropping the LL make for a better mech?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Almighty
05/23/10 10:43 AM
91.48.179.62
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We are talking about replacing the Urbanmech as a urban/city fighter. LOS isn't always there especially since the mech is slow and fater enemies usually use a patch with cover. By the time they shoot they are usually in medium range. On normal basis a medium mech needs two rounds to traverse long range to medium range. With roughly 50% hit chance you get one shot off or at most two. So long range weapons are useful when the enemy is slower and cannot use long range weapons or when long range is really long long. A lone long range weapon is a waste of weight for a more powerful medium range weapon. However, in combination with other long range weapons it's more feasible because you have more fire power at the same time.
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Karagin
05/23/10 11:33 AM
80.149.45.147
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And the Large Laser covers the medium range well enough, and given that the point was made to change out the LL cause it useless in city fight is crazy. The Large Laser is not that long range of a weapon, it has no minimum range to worry about and it offers decent heat to damage ratio, it works well with medium lasers and SRMs, all of which combine to give a city fighter the means to stop an enemy.
The idea of a city fighter, which you seem to not understand fully, is to hit and run, it snipes, it does not stand their and slug it out. Fire, fall back, flank etc...then attack again. Using other troops like infantry or vehicles together, means that the mech has a change to get to a better attacking position, and firing again. I have the feeling that you are in a full understanding of how fighting actually goes on in a city. I suggest that you read some of the tactical manuals that can be found on line about how real world militaries do things and some of the older WW2 fighting in cities as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Almighty
05/23/10 12:54 PM
91.48.179.62
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Yes. That's what I said about collateral damage, too.
Quote:
The idea of a city fighter, which you seem to not understand fully, is to hit and run, it snipes, it does not stand their and slug it out. Fire, fall back, flank etc...then attack again. Using other troops like infantry or vehicles together, means that the mech has a change to get to a better attacking position, and firing again. I have the feeling that you are in a full understanding of how fighting actually goes on in a city. I suggest that you read some of the tactical manuals that can be found on line about how real world militaries do things and some of the older WW2 fighting in cities as well.
So does the enemy, hence, the fight over battle rifle and assault rifle. In the real world long range is something for artillery. That's also the reason why the israelis have been the sole long range tank gunners for decades. I know enough how specops do for real as well as about technology or science or etc. :lol:
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Karagin
05/23/10 03:02 PM
80.149.45.147
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Your point is not making any sense, either you want a mech that can do what the Urbie does or you don't. Make up your mind.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Almighty
05/24/10 08:13 AM
91.48.191.162
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Quote:
Your point is not making any sense, either you want a mech that can do what the Urbie does or you don't. Make up your mind.
I already stated about the urban/city replacement, so there is no need to make up my mind again.
I will explain it again so that it's more clear.
Yes, your explaination of LL range is correct. So is the use of missile, which I said also abot collateral damage in the very first post. But it doesn't change my opinion about the practical usefulness of LL in urban/city.
After all the urban, too, had a short range AC/20 at first. Obviously the designers had thought the same.
Since the enemy also does the same as you said
Quote:
The idea of a city fighter, which you seem to not understand fully, is to hit and run, it snipes, it does not stand their and slug it out. Fire, fall back, flank etc...then attack again.
which I said farther back in more simpler fashion about the enemy using a less LOS path to approach, long range is rare in the real world, too. For that same reason military expert have been arguing about long range battle rifle and CQB assault rifle. Everybody bought assault rifle which led to the complains about bullet lacking stopping power and losing out to the AK battlerilfe (Oh, wonder).
For the same reason, tank gunners had been restricted to ranges far less than in the desert. That's why the israelis have been long range tank gunner for decades, while nobody else was.
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Kenjiro65
06/13/10 08:12 PM
180.200.136.64
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Thanks for the information. I do not seem to own a copy of total warfare (I thought I had bought it just recently, but had not had the time to look at it, but I dont see it in my library or 70+ BattleTech reference/scenario books). 
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Almighty
06/15/10 05:15 PM
91.48.214.209
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You should also look for the Tech Manual (35103). The newer books have good construction walkthroughs using their TRO as examples. I only wish there were more examples than those. Some text description aren't precise but thanks to the examples most things clear up. Still, some knowledge from older books would help with the shorter texts or infos. Well, you will notice that the weight classes have been expanded for some type of vehicles etc. I noticed that recently with HeavyMetal. I blame its fixed limitation rather than the rules.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/08/10 02:03 PM
24.6.132.62
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If I wanted a Urban mech, other than changing out the small lasers for MGs I like the design. I agree with keeping the hands you have no idea when they will come in use.
My opinion of light mechs are there just very expensive targets. For city defense I would use PBI and light tanks. Why throw a million or two C Bills at something that can be wiped out with just a couple of shots when you can get away spending a couple of hundred thousand C Bills on a light tank.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
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