Mino attack sub

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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/03/10 12:46 AM
173.116.69.227

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cost 140,000 CBills

tech level IS L1
chassis submarine
vehicle weight 10t
engine 40 ICE 2t
cruse speed 7
Flank speed 11
diving equipment 1t
control .5t
IS 1t

Armor 24p 1.5t

Front 1/12
LT/RT 1/5
Back 1/2
Turret N/A

LR torpedo 5
LRT 5 ammo 1t
squad of frogmen

This submarine was not primarily designed to destroy enemy mechs that invaded their waterways. Its primary mission is to deliver frogmen commandos to where they would be the most effective. Its secondary mission would be to harass any mechs that would invade there watery kingdom. The LR torpedo 5 pack is not all that effective but since its range is greater than most above ground weapons are underwater it a destructive enough to keep mechs out of the watery depths. If used in wolf packs even Minos can bring down the heaviest of mechs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
CrayModerator
10/03/10 08:29 PM
173.168.112.109

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Nice approach. With that speed and range, it would be quite effective in underwater combat - breach rules are a pain.

If you're taking input, a dedicated combat version would strongly benefit from a turret at the expense of the frogmen, especially against Clan threats where the range advantage of LRTs is limited to a few hexes and the fastest Clan 'Mechs can move pretty fast underwater. Bow-mounted weapons demand you keep your ship aimed at the threat, while turrets give you much greater freedom of movement.

But that's a great and inexpensive little sub as written.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/03/10 11:22 PM
108.126.57.157

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I don't agree. I think its just fine as it is. If the defense of a under water base or a mayor assault is planed a large wolf pack would be called for.

With mechs having to pay 4 mp per hex I don't see them as to much of a threat of out maneuvering a sub.

If the sub can stay at the range of 11 - 14 his attack would be a medium range and the clan mechs ERLL and EEPPC would be at long. If the sub was going to be paranoid of counter attacks he could stay between 17 -21 and no counter attack would be possible. If he wanted to be very bold attack at 6-7 where he is at short and the mech is at medium.

Unless the Clan attackers knew that they where going to do a major assault under water before they jumped into the system I doubt that they would have brought torpedo launchers for their mechs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
CrayModerator
10/06/10 11:20 PM
97.100.133.59

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Okily dokily.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Venom
10/07/10 09:23 PM
97.186.90.98

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Or the attackers could just not go in the water. Look into the maginot (sp?) Line.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/09/10 02:23 AM
70.0.53.87

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Yes, leaving a defender on planet with full ability to attack at will is a great plan.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Venom
10/09/10 05:06 PM
97.187.166.246

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You can hardly attack at will. I would just have ASFs patrol for awhile and attack the subs when they surface.
LAMdriver
10/09/10 09:37 PM
68.118.31.98

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Or you bring your own Hunter-Killer subs in and hunt them down, or orbital bombardment works in a pinch.

$0.02 D-Bill
" The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make some other bastard die for his!"--Patton

""War is Hell. Combat is a motherfucker."---General Tommy Franks
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/09/10 10:53 PM
173.116.83.69

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Quote:

Or you bring your own Hunter-Killer subs in and hunt them down,




That could take months, or most likely years since subs are not exactly common in the Inner Sphere .


Quote:

or orbital bombardment works in a pinch.




That is like kill a fly with a atom bomb and will be a great deal less successful. You will have to also know where your target is first.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
LAMdriver
10/10/10 01:53 AM
68.118.31.98

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But the orbital bombardment would work...of course the planet would be useless after...but hey its the Jihad we take what we get.
" The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make some other bastard die for his!"--Patton

""War is Hell. Combat is a motherfucker."---General Tommy Franks
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/10/10 08:57 AM
68.26.209.197

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Not when it comes to targets that are under water. Lasers are useless because it will just boil away the surface water. Any missile or projectile weapon should detonate on the surface because of the impact of hitting the water. If not it would still miss because water distorts light waves aka in water where it looks like something is it is not.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Venom
10/10/10 03:13 PM
97.61.233.55

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It doesn't have to hit, just get close(see depth charges). At any rate all an attacker has to do is control the refueling depots and you are boned.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/10/10 03:41 PM
68.26.34.187

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So gorilla fights cant make or steal resources?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
CrayModerator
10/11/10 01:37 AM
97.100.133.59

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Quote:

But the orbital bombardment would work...of course the planet would be useless after...but hey its the Jihad we take what we get.




Orbital bombardment would take years to ruin a planet. A standard BT capital weapon attack only damages a tiny area of a planet, far less than nukes. Further, orbital bombardment attacks are not very penetrating - it wouldn't take much depth to protect submarines from such attacks.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
10/11/10 01:39 AM
97.100.133.59

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Quote:

It doesn't have to hit, just get close(see depth charges). At any rate all an attacker has to do is control the refueling depots and you are boned.




Folks, ya'll might want to refer to the actual rules. Orbital bombardment and nukes don't have a great deal of penetration underwater in BT. Milchcow submarines, underwater bases, and submarines will generally be quite safe within the scope of published rules.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
10/11/10 01:40 AM
97.100.133.59

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Quote:

or orbital bombardment works in a pinch.




No, it doesn't. Oceans are big, and deep. Orbital bombardment affects tiny, shallow areas.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
10/11/10 01:44 AM
97.100.133.59

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Quote:

You can hardly attack at will. I would just have ASFs patrol for awhile and attack the subs when they surface.




Sure, that'll work if you contrive the scenario to put the ASF and submarine on the same game board. In practice, invasion forces only have a few dozen ASF (at the most) while planets have hundreds of millions of square kilometers of water. The chances of getting an ASF in the same game board as a surfacing submarine is small even if there's an obvious target, because planets have lots of targets.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/11/10 10:03 AM
173.148.194.86

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Quote:

[Milchcow submarines




What is that?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Rotwang
10/11/10 03:13 PM
78.23.1.71

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Milchcows is the submarine equivalent of a refuelling plane.
CrayModerator
10/11/10 04:19 PM
173.168.112.109

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Quote:

Quote:

Milchcow submarines




What is that?




Google is your friend.

Milchcows (English: Milk Cows) were German submarines designed as resupply ships for other U-boats. They enabled combat submarines to act at far greater ranges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_XIV_submarine

In BT, a few fusion-powered submarine support vehicle tenders could easily act as mobile bases for your Mino submarines. With thousands of tons of supplies, they'd be able to supply a battalions or regiments of Minos for months at a time. If the Minos switched to a combat vehicle fuel cell engine, a fusion Milchcow could also keep them zipping around at top speeds indefinitely.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/11/10 10:43 PM
184.192.141.4

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I was just thinking about the mini's power plant today as I was driving. I was thinking of a hydrogen electric power plant. All you have to do is take water, the sub might just be able to scrounge up from somewhere, and make it into gas. Pass that though the hydrogen electric power plant and you have an endless energy source. The good thing about this is the byproduct is water that is safe to drink for the crew.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Venom
10/12/10 12:11 AM
70.213.15.156

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Be careful. You are getting close to newtype-esque physics. It takes alot of energy to split water. Cray can probably pull a phd quality post on the subject, but all I know is that in physics there is no free lunch.
Zandel_Corrin
10/12/10 12:55 AM
123.2.140.247

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newtype.... been a while since i've heard that name..... still you have a point

The subs are a nice idea but only really suit a campaign where interstellar travel has broken down otherwise they serve no real purpose.... just stay on land and lol at them.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/12/10 07:34 AM
173.151.158.114

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Quote:

Be careful. You are getting close to newtype-esque physics. It takes alot of energy to split water. Cray can probably pull a phd quality post on the subject, but all I know is that in physics there is no free lunch.




I am not sure that it would work it was just an idea. The difference between my idea and newtype's is that mine might just be feasible. If it does take more energy to split water than you can get out of a hydrogen electric power plant I would agree it would not work. The only real question is taking in account of the law of convection of energy could it work.

If not, The sub could be fitted with large hydrogen holding tanks and solar panels for collecting the suns energy to make hydrogen when it is close enough to the service to do so. There are subs in the real world that do just that today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine. When it is not feasible other subs could resupply it with hydrogen. To have a endless supply of hydrogen all you would have to do set up a somewhat portable solar hydrogen plant on some deserted island.


Quote:

newtype.... been a while since i've heard that name..... still you have a point

The subs are a nice idea but only really suit a campaign where interstellar travel has broken down otherwise they serve no real purpose.... just stay on land and lol at them.




Where would the use of subs on a world that has vast seas have anything to do with the brake down of interstellar travel? There are vast resources that are under water that can be exploited that would more than justify the use of subs. As for my sub design with the ability to put ashore troops on any beach where they can set up a sneak attack would more than justify there being built.

Because of this thread I am thinking of putting together a mini sub manufacturing plant on my world. I think there is a niche here that I can fill and more important make money in the posses. Gorilla fighters on a water rich world might just be a suitable market. Of coarse, if the gorilla fighters have them I could also sale the legal government some to combat the gorilla fighters. Its really sweet when you can sale both sides of a conflict with weapon systems. I could also set up a school for mercenary technical support to go with the subs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
CrayModerator
10/12/10 09:37 AM
147.160.136.10

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Quote:

His Most Royal Highass Donkey wrote:
I was just thinking about the mini's power plant today as I was driving. I was thinking of a hydrogen electric power plant. All you have to do is take water, the sub might just be able to scrounge up from somewhere, and make it into gas. Pass that though the hydrogen electric power plant and you have an endless energy source. The good thing about this is the byproduct is water that is safe to drink for the crew.




That's true, but creating hydrogen gas from water uses more power than you can generate in a fuel cell power plant. In other words, the Minos (if you convert it to a Tactical Operations combat vehicle fuel cell power plant) won't be able to produce its own hydrogen without an outside power source.

Hence the value of a fusion engine on a Milchcow: nuclear reactions generate far more energy than is required to break the chemical bonds of water to produce hydrogen gas.

Quote:

If it does take more energy to split water than you can get out of a hydrogen electric power plant I would agree it would not work.




Well, yes, you have to lose energy. The energy required to "crack" water is exactly equal to the energy that can be obtained by recombining the hydrogen and oxygen - if you lost no energy along the way. Reacting hydrogen and oxygen to produce a kilogram of water releases 15,880,000 Joules of energy. Splitting a kilogram of water into hydrogen and oxygen consumes 15,880,000 Joules of energy.

However, you will lose energy along the way.

The process of cracking water is only 50-80% efficient, meaning some of the electricity and/or heat pumped into water will simply be wasted. You need 15.88 megajoules to cut all the chemical bonds in a kilogram of water, but with the waste you need to pump 20 to 32 megajoules into the water splitter mechanism.

Fuel cells are also not perfectly efficient at producing electricity from hydrogen and oxygen. The overall efficiency from the fuel cell to the wheel or propeller of a vehicle is about 40-50% (much better than a gasoline motor, but still imperfect). The 15.88MJ of hydrogen would thus turn into about 6.4MJ at the submarine's propeller.

So your overall efficiency from water electrolyzer to submarine propeller could be as low as 6.4 / 32 = 20%. You'll definitely need an outside power plant to refuel the submarine.


References:
http://www.uic.com.au/nip73.htm
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review08/pd_11_porter.pdf
http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/40605.pdf

Quote:

The only real question is taking in account of the law of convection of energy could it work.




You might mean the laws of thermodynamics. Motion of hot fluid due to temperature differences (convection) isn't very applicable here.

Quote:

Zandel Corrin wrote:
The subs are a nice idea but only really suit a campaign where interstellar travel has broken down otherwise they serve no real purpose.... just stay on land and lol at them.




Unfortunately, reality is that there are a lot of reasons to go in the water, like:

1) Your target is in the water, like underwater command center (see: TR3026 Neptune entry), an underwater mine, or simply oceanic shipping
2) Your target is on the far side of a body of water, like an ocean, and you didn't bring your own ships and don't have sufficient aerospace superiority to hop around on your DropShips
3) Minos-class submarines remain hidden underwater and pop up at unpredictable times and planes to release their infantry who a) shoot up your supply trains, b) ambush your MechWarriors when they're on R&R in a "conquered" city, c) infiltrate your bases and shoot your MechWarriors in their sleep, etc. Guerilla forces who hide 200km out at sea are kind of hard to deal with when you only have a regiment or two stranded on land and tens of thousands of kilometers of coast to patrol (in addition to everything else an invasion force has to do on a planet).

Much like a Castle Brian, submersible forces are not meant to provide impervious defenses to the land they "protect." Rather, they make it difficult to control that terrain.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/12/10 11:21 AM
173.151.32.39

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Quote:

Quote:

The only real question is taking in account of the law of convection of energy could it work.




You might mean the laws of thermodynamics. Motion of hot fluid due to temperature differences (convection) isn't very applicable here.




I am not spelling it correctly. What I mean is the law that states that when you do something not all of the energy that you put into it is used as you want it to. There is unwanted energy use aka normally heat.

My spell checker and other sources of spelling correction are failing me.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Toscotto
10/12/10 12:05 PM
69.49.77.37

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personally i miss the melissa steiner convos that newtype had with himself.....
The question is not how far, the question is do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as needed?
CrayModerator
10/12/10 01:44 PM
147.160.136.10

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Quote:

I am not spelling it correctly. What I mean is the law that states that when you do something not all of the energy that you put into it is used as you want it to. There is unwanted energy use aka normally heat.




Yep, that's the one. That's the laws of thermodynamics. The first says you can't get more energy out of a system than you put in; the second says that energy is always going to see some loss to entropy.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/20/10 12:05 AM
70.6.255.230

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Quote:

personally i miss the melissa steiner convos that newtype had with himself.....




What I miss from the newtype days is something happening on here. Its gotten to the point of watching my mechs armor rust is more exciting. At least telling newtype that he was a moron was something.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/16/16 03:29 AM
70.122.160.150

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After being gone for a good part of a year I decided to be a royal pain in the donkey by bringing up my old posts from the morgue and set loss some old post zombies. *Evil braying!!!*

I will see you again in another year or so
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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