Christopher_Perkins
02/09/11 12:10 AM
24.125.16.116
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The impression I'm taking away from this conversation, Chris, is that you haven't read Strategic Operations, or you ignored the implications of the life support consumables rules for spacecraft. They answer all your issues posed here. Life support for infantry bays, for cargo bays, for small craft, fatigue, all that was addressed in Strategic Operations.
Consumables is one thing... I am talking about the Bay Mass.. Lifesupport equipment mass that should not have been hidden
Did the mass of the
Vehicle Bay (100 or 50, max vehicle mass of 100 0),
Infantry Bay (5 tons - 3 tons troop bay| per man 107 kg men and equipment + 71 kg lifesupport & barracks tonnage)
Small Craft Bay (matches heavest unit of type, no space for crew or lifesupport)
Battle Armor max tonnage of suit is 2 tons, same of bay
Mass of Transport Bay in AT2 matched mass of Fatigue reduced Bay in SUV Rules... I can see the Requirements to avoid Fatigue being increased for Sealed... so the Short term transport bay in Sealed Ships would be the same mass as the long term facilities on a surface vessle... there should be Long Term transport masses.
There should also be a requirement for infantry Platoon bays to house vehicle crew rather than zeroing out the mass of the Vehicle Crew or relying on Average tonnage of vehicles
There Should be a middle Ground of a Long Term Barracks type housing vice individual rooms...
yes i know that the mass of "seperate quarters" is supposed to cover this... but the Key Term is "Seperate Quarters" Seperate Quarters are a luxury in every other science fiction universe... but y'all seam proud that you made them a necessity.
the Mass of the Vehicle Crew Bay described in the Triumph in DS & JS was most definately not intended to be Zero...
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That's a coincidence. The SUV and DropShip construction rules were not compared or in any way adjusted to match each other during the drafting of the support vehicle rules. I was there for the whole review process of SUVs in Combat Equipment Guide and Tech Manual.
Not a Coincidence, same Source. that which was published before, heck the formatting of the Bay personnel looks the same as in AT2R and Combat Equipment...
you missed the point, however,
Support Vehicles pay 10% of their mass for environmental Sealing & Life Support Equipment if they are Vacuum Capable...
So any equipment or bays mass 1.1 that of non sealed equipment...
5 tons regular bay, 5.5 tons sealed bay
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It is said to be in Strategic Operations. If you can't find the mass, draw from something else on the ship, like the structural mass, which provides for the life support of people living in cargo bays (other than the required consumables mass). People in cargo bays use the most consumables of any passengers.
good fluff i guess... but it still doesnt account for the Free Tonnage in the Vehcile and Small Craft Bays...
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Another Issue is that the SUV rules allow for Compartments and Bays... Compartments are For Short Term transport while the Bays are for Long term Barracks like Accomodation (or even 3 levels? Fatigue in hours, Fatigue in Days, Long Term?) this should have been incorporated in the SO update to AT2R.
This WAS addressed in Strategic Operations. Such quarters have very high uses of consumables, accounting for the effort of compensating for fatigue.
Not Compensating...
let me try again...
In the SUV Rules,
the Three ton Infantry Compartment Causes Fatigue if you are in it longer than 8 hours
the Five Ton Infantry Bay (which does incorporate life support, interesting) does not.
If the Same Ratio is used, a Bay that did not cause fatigue for space craft would be 8.5 tons for 28 men.
Contrasting that with 140 tons for Luxury Accomodations (A closet of their very own)
Very Bad Form.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Cray
02/09/11 08:33 AM
147.160.136.10
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The impression I'm taking away from this conversation, Chris, is that you haven't read Strategic Operations, or you ignored the implications of the life support consumables rules for spacecraft. They answer all your issues posed here. Life support for infantry bays, for cargo bays, for small craft, fatigue, all that was addressed in Strategic Operations.
Consumables is one thing... I am talking about the Bay Mass..
[snip]
I am also talking about the bay mass.
The information you're apparently missing is that life support hardware can be extremely light, no more than a few kilograms, or existing life support hardware can easily be pushed to handle many more people if you're willing to stop recycling. The heavy part for such simple or over-burdened life support systems is the consumables. Hence, as I said, Strategic Operations addresses this.
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Lifesupport equipment mass that should not have been hidden
Awesome. Let's track 2 or 3kg on ships massing thousands of tons. What else needs to be tracked, Chris? Are you also going to track the humidity in the ship's air that can vary ship's mass by hundreds of kilograms? Do you want to track the weight of paint, which can amount to 300kg on something as small as the Space Shuttle's external tank? Hey, let's not forget toilet paper - there's a fatigue-inducing item when it runs low.
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there should be Long Term transport masses
There is, and it's been explained to you twice already. I'm sorry it's not handled in the way you'd like it, but Strategic Operations addresses fatigue, varying life support masses, and their impact on ship's masses in a way that doesn't devolve into GURPS-like ultra-fine accounting.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Christopher_Perkins
02/09/11 11:55 PM
24.125.16.116
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I hardly consider Barracks Style Accomodations for 26 Men and 2 small rooms for an other 2 men and full bathroom facilities for the 28 men inaddition to what ever else is required in lifesupport consumables.
When looking at the 3000 kg for the Infantry Transport Compartment vice life support & Barracks facilities in the 5000 kg infantry Transport Bay, the 107 kg per man is the man, the weaponry and other gear with 71 kg per man being furniture and life support.
The Vehicle Bays and Small Craft Bays get a free lunch in that they are not allocated mass for the housing of their crews while Fighters and Mechs have enough slack space to hide the mass for the housing and lifesupport.
you keep referring to Gurps... I do not own any of that stuff
I only care about BattleTech... BattleTech has something that RoboTech did not... Rules that you could use to see if the Writers were following their own rules.
BattleTech used to be something where the designers thought nothing of having a ship statted to transport four BattleMechs in a Bay that was massed at 400 tons because it was walk-off only and the Mechwarrior had to bunk in the crew bays or in a room of his own.
Another Dropship had vehicle bays that were massed at the maximum weight of a vehicle that could fit in them, but had Infantry Bays as barracks accommodations, in addition to light vehicle bays for Mechanized infantry units.
a Few Years later these ships did not survive contact with revisionist writers who think nothing of changing key details of ships that were written before. The Excalibres primary should not have Full Battlemech Bays, they should be Cargo Bays with a 400 ton capacity fluffed to transport Mechs. The Triumph should have an infantry Bay fluffed to be the bay that the Crews of the Heavy Vehicles live in. The Mark VII Landing Craft Should be a AeroSpace Fighter with a Cargo Bay large enough to transport a tank.
Band aids like increasing consumption of supplies on a scale inverted from the mass per man are things that (while being good ideas) do not address the underlying issue of the violation of TANSTAAFL.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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KitK
02/11/11 12:45 AM
71.17.192.22
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I was tempted at first to think of a bay's weight being related to the weight of the object it held plus space for people, parts, ammo, and I'd buy into life support, too. The problem is tanks don't leave any room.
I'm thinking of a bay as a structure with unique design for holding its object. Keeping a mech upright takes more equipment than it takes to keep a tank from rolling away. Bunks and bathrooms for infantry don't weigh much, so 5 tons. The bay weight is what it takes to contain the object, not how much the object weighs. I'm thinking a mech bay, by itself, weighs 150 tons before you put anything in it.
Now life support, I was surprised that it wasn't a line item at some percentage of the ship's mass. But I don't see it needing to be part of a bay, per se. It would seem that a ship has to have a life support system, whether it is in the accounting or not. Under ideal conditions (quartered crew) the system functions at a high efficency. Bays, not so good. Steerage, terrible. In other words there is only one life support system with which different housing types interface, some better than others.
My 2 cents after skimming the discussion. I think I've finalized my design. Now I have to get it written up.
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Christopher_Perkins
02/11/11 10:10 AM
138.162.128.55
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I was tempted at first to think of a bay's weight being related to the weight of the object it held plus space for people, parts, ammo, and I'd buy into life support, too. The problem is tanks don't leave any room.
That is precisely why i say that Vehicle Bays and Small Craft Bays Violate There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
BattleMech Bays, Fighter Bays, and Infantry Bays either account tonnage for their personnel, or are abstracted to the point that we can safely assume it to be there.
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I'm thinking of a bay as a structure with unique design for holding its object. Keeping a mech upright takes more equipment than it takes to keep a tank from rolling away. Bunks and bathrooms for infantry don't weigh much, so 5 tons. The bay weight is what it takes to contain the object, not how much the object weighs. I'm thinking a mech bay, by itself, weighs 150 tons before you put anything in it.
the 150 Ton Mech And Fighter Bays have always or almost always been fluffed to have the Repair Equipment and Mech Drop Equipment or Fighter Launch Equipment. It is unclear if this has always included the Housing Facilities. The Excalibur published in DropShips and Jump Ships at a 400 ton bay for 4 Mechs was Specificly Stated to lack these facilities. the Modern Version that has these facilities for 150 tons per mech or pays 150 tons per mech yet is fluffed to Lack these facilities is possibly a failure in the rules but more likely a Doctrinal epic fail.
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Now life support, I was surprised that it wasn't a line item at some percentage of the ship's mass. But I don't see it needing to be part of a bay, per se. It would seem that a ship has to have a life support system, whether it is in the accounting or not. Under ideal conditions (quartered crew) the system functions at a high efficency. Bays, not so good. Steerage, terrible. In other words there is only one life support system with which different housing types interface, some better than others.
Life Support is Not accounted Tonnage, this is a fail state, best case would actually be a seperate line item in tonnage and costs HM Aero 2 is not even thought of yet... it needs to be solidified before then.
Life Support is accounted a C-Bill Cost - partial Success
Life Support is accounted at a C-Bill Cost that does not allow for the exclusion of Bay Personnel if the user has opted to put in 5 ton closets for the housing of the bay personnel, so the user gets charged twice for lifesupport in c-bills for "bay personnel" that are granted rooms - if this has been addressed in the rules, perhapse as far back as AeroTech 2 revised, then it is a doctrinal failure that needs to be fixed in HM Aero... if this is something that has not been addressed in the rules yet (each man either charged as Life Support Cost from Bay personnel or for the room, not both). Yes there is the Engineers concept of over building ... but bay personnel are actually getting a 4x buffer if every one else is getting a 2x buffer.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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KitK
02/17/11 10:20 PM
71.17.192.22
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I've wrapped up the project.
Thanks very much to Chris and Cray for the help and discussion.
It's posted here in the Aerospace discussion area.
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