Gear171
03/02/11 05:16 PM
69.43.65.71
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so I've been playing with this idea. Why not use elite camouflaged/adaptive camoflage infantry to infiltrate an enemy drop-ship on the ground, wait for it to take off, then take control of it in space by force. Why not take it one step farther, wait for it to dock with the jumpship and take that over too?
Is there any canon reason this wouldn't work, or maybe I'm just overlooking something obvious?
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Gear171
03/02/11 06:14 PM
69.43.65.73
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Maybe a diversionary attack on the base the drop ship is in to distract the enemy while the special troops slipped on-board. They would have to hold the bridge crew hostage, as they probably don't know how to pilot a drop/jump-ship. The crew would then be promised that, should they follow instructions they will not be harmed. Make them jump to a near-by friendly system, then put them in a life-boat and bring your own crew on-board after broadcasting the life-boats position to someone that could pick them up and rescue them. No need to be uncivil about this.
I figure one platoon of un-armored, camo, ECM infantry should do the trick for anything but a troop-transport (which would potentially have hundreds of soldiers)
My ideal target would be a union. Reasoning:
-Huge cargo bays to hide in
-wait until it has 12 mechs and 2 aircraft on-board and take those in the process. Also, if they were damaged, it would be difficult to keep track of the exact tonnage, so the 3 tons of infantry shouldn't be as easily noticed.
-Guns
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Cray
03/02/11 06:52 PM
173.168.112.109
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Quote:
so I've been playing with this idea. Why not use elite camouflaged/adaptive camoflage infantry to infiltrate an enemy drop-ship on the ground, wait for it to take off, then take control of it in space by force. Why not take it one step farther, wait for it to dock with the jumpship and take that over too?
Is there any canon reason this wouldn't work, or maybe I'm just overlooking something obvious?
In the Inner Sphere, attacks on JumpShips are bad mojo, particularly between 2860 and 3050AD when they're rare and precious. It gets you outlawed fast.
Attacking DropShips is always possible. Tactical Operations (pg199+) provides board game-level rules for boarding with an intent to capture a ship.
If you mean, "Why isn't everyone doing this," the answer is, "Because it'll only work the first few times before the word gets out." BT large spacecraft are highly compartmentalized, allowing easy containment of boarders - and easy venting into space. They should be riddled with sensors and security, too, especially military spacecraft, so you won't be able to do too much sneaking without alerting someone. Once people are aware of spacecraft thefts, it's an easy matter to step up security and keep the external doors shut and thoroughly monitored.
So, sure, you can board and capture a DropShip. It'd be a fun mission for a roleplaying game - capture the DropShip with the VIP on board, or something like that.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (03/02/11 07:02 PM)
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Gear171
03/02/11 06:58 PM
69.43.65.73
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Would ECM as well as active camo hide you from the sensors and whatnot? the description in max. tech says it makes you invisible to probes and sensors.
Maybe a jump-ship is out, but you wouldn't actually be damaging it, just capturing it.
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Cray
03/02/11 07:01 PM
173.168.112.109
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Quote:
Maybe a diversionary attack on the base the drop ship is in to distract the enemy while the special troops slipped on-board.
When people start fighting around DropShips, the DropShips usually clam up pretty hard. Good luck getting aboard.
Quote:
They would have to hold the bridge crew hostage, as they probably don't know how to pilot a drop/jump-ship. The crew would then be promised that, should they follow instructions they will not be harmed. Make them jump to a near-by friendly system, then put them in a life-boat and bring your own crew on-board after broadcasting the life-boats position to someone that could pick them up and rescue them. No need to be uncivil about this.
If you're not roleplaying but rather using the board game boarding rules of Tactical Operations, those details are handled by a few dice rolls.
In a roleplaying situation, I'd say, "Good luck getting from the base of a DropShip the size of a football field up to the isolated bridge through all the sealed and locked bulkhead doors." They aren't like today's airplanes where you step in one door, run up the aisle to the cockpit, and say, "Surprise!" 
Quote:
I figure one platoon of un-armored, camo, ECM infantry should do the trick for anything but a troop-transport (which would potentially have hundreds of soldiers)
Yes. That gives you 28 marine points (per pg201+ of Tactical Operations). That should be enough to handle most DropShips, which lack marine units of their own and only get partial marine points for their regular crew men.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
03/02/11 07:09 PM
173.168.112.109
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Quote:
Would ECM as well as active camo hide you from the sensors and whatnot? the description in max. tech says it makes you invisible to probes and sensors.
Crewman: "Hey, Captain, I locked down all the doors like you said because of that battle outside before we launched, but now that we're in space the cameras show doors are opening by themselves on the ship. And access panels beside the doors are popping open like someone invisible is hacking them. Except over here, where all the cameras are fuzzed out like someone's jamming them."
Captain: "Everyone at their stations? Good, then vent those areas with the self-opening doors to vacuum."
Quote:
Maybe a jump-ship is out, but you wouldn't actually be damaging it, just capturing it.
That's called piracy, and after centuries of being ravaged by pirates the Inner Sphere has fairly stern laws about it. That and rampant theft of JumpShips is prone to bring back the old days of the early Succession Wars, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days when civilization nearly collapsed from attacks on JumpShips.
If your covert ops group works for a House, then you can probably pull off a JumpShip theft a few times before there's a large-scale retaliation. If you're a merc unit, then you're going to have a helluva time working when you show up with a JumpShip registered (by Comstar) to someone else.
The problem with detailed roleplaying scenarios like "covert ops take a big spaceship" is that, when properly played, there are retaliations for certain behaviors. Your PCs can't go giggling and boozing down the streets of New Avalon, shooting any NPCs they like - properly played, the police will go after them. Similarly, theft of JumpShips has consequences in the BT setting, too.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (03/02/11 07:11 PM)
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Christopher_Perkins
03/02/11 07:48 PM
138.162.128.52
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q.v. Mannen Mac lir
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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LAMdriver
03/17/11 02:39 AM
68.118.31.98
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Cray has a very good point.
Looking from a tactical point of view, boarding an airplane is just hard...forget everything you have seen in the movies, boarding a plane is just plain hard and damn near impossible to do.
On a 747 you have 3 doors on the side, wheel wells and access panels on the underside, and the baggage hold.
The doors can be accessed from the outside, but everyone onboard will see you and take measures to kill you. Boobytrap the doors with a Claymore mines and the assualters will never see it until BOOOM!
The wheel wells are extermely tight to move around in and are sealed to prevent lost of air pressure while in flight.
The access panels are all wired to the cockpit and sound alarms unless they are bypassed first. Then you have to get up into them and those places WILL make you cloisterphobic while wearing your gear, body armor, and weapons. You simply have no room to move.
Baggage holds on a plane don't connect to the passenger area in anyway. Most of these areas are not pressurized and are sealed off. You could get into the passenger cabin by cutting your way in, but these areas also have fire alarms and they will sound if anything sparks up and creates smoke.
Taken all that I have just said and muliply it by 100 times and that is what you have when trying to assualt a Dropship.
" The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make some other bastard die for his!"--Patton
""War is Hell. Combat is a motherfucker."---General Tommy Franks
Edited by LAMdriver (03/18/11 01:05 AM)
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Gear171
03/19/11 10:00 PM
69.43.65.71
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agreed, but you're referring to a plane used mostly to transport people. People are small. Mechs are huge. The doors are much, much larger, and the cargo doors are equally huge. Bigger doors are easier to sneak through.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/20/11 01:55 AM
173.153.103.115
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Cray how do you explain all of the battletech novels where jumpships are hijacked and nothing happens from the powers to be and the hijackers keep the ship?
There are a few mercenary units that its explained that they got there naval assets by conquest of war.
I would assume that anything that is in a battletech novel is considered cannon.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Goundry
03/20/11 08:06 AM
82.33.161.138
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If you really want to take a jumpship in one of your games you sugest to the games master that a band of periphery pirates have been raiding up and down the "blurb" periphery border, causing masive destruction.
Due to "blurb" there are very few conventional units available to takle the problem. However an opportunity has arisen a pirate captured during their last raid has provided information on the next probable target. And a spec opps group training at an undisclosed location has been diverted to sector command use them as you see fit
As for why some mercy have taken them as spoils of war they may have been before it became taboo, especially as some of the mercy units have sldf origins. And to do it now you would need to have full salvage rights or guess which piece of salvage your employer is going to pick
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/20/11 10:05 AM
173.153.103.115
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A string of bandit raids don't last long long enough for that to work. That would not be allowed to continue for long. Who ever was being attacked would have have gone to the bandit kings home world and crushed the bandit king under their boot for his trouble.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Goundry
03/20/11 12:01 PM
82.33.161.138
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If they know where they are operating from, but fair point
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Cray
03/20/11 02:13 PM
173.168.112.109
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Quote:
agreed, but you're referring to a plane used mostly to transport people.
No, I was referring to DropShips. DropShips are only built to 'Mech scales in a few areas, like, well, the main cargo bay. The rest of the DropShip - the vital engineering spaces, crew quarters and bridge - are not. For those, refer to my last post on 3/2/2011.
Quote:
People are small. Mechs are huge. The doors are much, much larger, and the cargo doors are equally huge. Bigger doors are easier to sneak through.
Not every door in a DropShip is 'Mech-scaled, and it's pretty obvious when 'Mech-scale doors open without authorization.
And successfully stealing a DropShip or JumpShip does not erase the charges of piracy and bad blood you accumulate.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (03/20/11 02:15 PM)
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Cray
03/20/11 02:16 PM
173.168.112.109
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Quote:
If you really want to take a jumpship in one of your games you sugest to the games master that a band of periphery pirates have been raiding up and down the "blurb" periphery border, causing masive destruction.
Ooo, piracy against pirates. That's a good one. You could get away with that.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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LAMdriver
03/22/11 02:51 AM
68.118.31.98
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Have to agree with Cray on this one.
And again your not looking at the big picture of things. For example, you just dropped your 'Mechs, troops, vehicles, aerospace fighters, and are sitting in your dropzone. Your weapons are being manned, sensors working over time looking for threats, and you are buttoned up tight ready to get the call for dust off and retrievial of assets. Your not going to have you mech doors open and your crew screwing around. Your going to have multiuple layers of security out looking for threats.
Layers of secuirty will probably go like this:
1. AeroSpace CAP.
2. Dropship outer senors.
3. Roving outer patrol of Mechs, vehicles, and/or infantry.
4. Security personel posted at key entry points (examples: Mech doors and loading doors)
5. Roving inner patrols.
6. Dropship inner sensors and cameras.
7. Secuity personel (I would use battlearmor) at key loctions in the Dropship like the bridge, engineering, weapons, cargo (especially if I was carrying fuel for convential vehicles)
Now if you were using super ninja, stealthed troopers, I would counter with dogs or battlearmor.
There are ways to get into somewhere, but there are more countermeasures to keep people out.
$0.02 D-Bill
" The object of war is not to die for your country. It's to make some other bastard die for his!"--Patton
""War is Hell. Combat is a motherfucker."---General Tommy Franks
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Goundry
03/22/11 11:40 AM
80.254.146.68
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I dont think it should be easy. but i would still say its possible
1, Areospace cap >not much use spotting covert ops types to high up moving to fast
2, Drop ship outer sensors > these are designed for spotting incoming fighters and such not small groups of people. and thats if there functioning this is the battle tech univers afterall
3, Roving patrol of mechs, vehicles and infantry > yup ill give you this one
4, Security personel posted at key entry points (examples: Mech doors and loading doors) > bring snipers these guys are a big problem
5. Roving inner patrols > these would cause problems but drop ship crews arent masive and neither are jumpship crews so un less there are marines on board a platoon would have to be unlucky to be stopped
6. Dropship inner sensors and cameras. > once again this is battle tech so depends on whatera your opperating in, and these could be hacked and looped
7. Secuity personel (I would use battlearmor) at key loctions in the Dropship like the bridge, engineering, weapons, cargo (especially if I was carrying fuel for convential vehicles) > valid point but depends on tech levels and you onlyneed to take some of these locations not all
As for the dogs, are you expecting super nijas every where you go? and how do the dogs take to zero G?
There are always ways in, and yes there are always more counter measures but how much time and effort are you willing to spend on those counter measure, well that all depends on how much company your expecting
plus lets say a union drop ship crew of 10 to 15 vs twice as many trained killers
In short as long as your careful with your fluff theres no reason you cant use covert opps types to take control of dropships and jumpships, but at hte same time be prepared you the guy coming out of the john just as you storm onto the ship to bring the plan crashing down round your ears and get you vented to space
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Christopher_Perkins
03/22/11 12:43 PM
138.162.128.55
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Dropship Internal/External Sensors would be designed for both Ground Security and Combat: Remember, Boarding Actions and Forced nationalizations, and Captures on the Ground are a Daily Fact of Life in the BattleTech Universe. You are counting on the Engineers and programmmers being Criminally Negligent.
The BattleTech Universe might not have ShadowRun's ICE, but the Computers on Military Dropships are just as secure as Todays Computers on Ships of War. And ships run by companies would be just as Secure as the Civil Ships of today.
It is Possible to Spoof the Sensors, but there would be Opposed and UnOpposed Skill Rolls involved.\
This is more for MechWarrior 1st/2nd/3rd/A Time of War than it is for BattleTech.
====
Sentries could easily be posted in Powered Armor (PA/BA), and I am not sure if "Signs of Life" functionality is incorporated in any Communicators, but there Security posts would definately be part of any Security Guards gear and equippage
====
Looks like you are also opening it up to Boarding Actions in Space/Zero G
1 Marine (Zero G Combat trained) is equivelent to 5 regular crew (Zero G Movement and operations, not necessarily Combat) if i remember what was published in BattleSpace... not sure what it is now, if anything has been published.
Not Sure what it multiple is for infantry personnel not trained in Zero G operations.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Goundry
03/22/11 02:41 PM
80.254.146.68
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i just ment that you would need to carry the dogs around with you, i was beeing a bit penicaty with that one ill admit
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/22/11 05:23 PM
107.25.241.55
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I dont think it should be easy. but i would still say its possible
1, Areospace cap >not much use spotting covert ops types to high up moving to fast
I agree
2, Drop ship outer sensors > these are designed for spotting incoming fighters and such not small groups of people. and thats if there functioning this is the battle tech univers after all.
It would depend on whats going on around the drop ship if they will work or not.
3, Roving patrol of mechs, vehicles and infantry > yup ill give you this one
With what troops? Most of the troops would be away on what ever mission there on.
4, Security personel posted at key entry points (examples: Mech doors and loading doors) > bring snipers these guys are a big problem
Most likely the ship would be locked up tight unless there where actively having equipment loading or unloading. Also most ships would not have the personal available for such duty.
5. Roving inner patrols > these would cause problems but drop ship crews arent masive and neither are jumpship crews so un less there are marines on board a platoon would have to be unlucky to be stopped
I agree
6. Dropship inner sensors and cameras. > once again this is battle tech so depends on whatera your opperating in, and these could be hacked and looped
Do to the lack of personal available there not being watched unless there is a reason to be.
7. Secuity personel (I would use battlearmor) at key loctions in the Dropship like the bridge, engineering, weapons, cargo (especially if I was carrying fuel for convential vehicles) > valid point but depends on tech levels and you onlyneed to take some of these locations not all
Unless there was a reason the only thing protecting such access would be electronic devises.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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KitK
03/23/11 12:12 PM
128.233.4.150
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I had the fancy idea that a team of mechs with null-sigs could operate like a covert commando squad. Then I started experimenting with it on a map with spotting rules, etc. I found out it is really hard for a mech to sneak up on anything.
Give your boarding action a try and see how it works.
KK
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Christopher_Perkins
03/29/11 11:08 AM
138.162.128.53
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Quote:
i just ment that you would need to carry the dogs around with you, i was beeing a bit penicaty with that one ill admit
not necessarily...
any where that has dogs would be willing to sell them. At minimum requirement the unit could have organic K9 personnel. (Dogs going "Hail, Well met" in the middle of the night could be a good warning sign)
Even then, livestock is often transported from planet to planet
Luka, Sputnik, erm... what was the name?
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
03/29/11 11:32 AM
138.162.128.54
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Quote:
I dont think it should be easy. but i would still say its possible
you did not at first give the impression that it was merely possible...
LAMDriver> 1, Areospace cap
Goundry> not much use spotting covert ops types to high up moving to fast
HMRHD> I agree
PerkinsC> Perhapse... it all depends on how good the Ground looking Sensors are on the CAP, and if someone is really paranoid the Boomerang could be very effective.
LAMDriver> 2, Drop ship outer sensors
Goundry> these are designed for spotting incoming fighters and such not small groups of people. and thats if there functioning this is the battle tech univers after all.
HMRHD> It would depend on whats going on around the drop ship if they will work or not.
PerkinsC> Work, not really, that is maintenenance. Effectiveness depends on the Sensor Operator and how skilled the infiltrator is at sensor evasion.
LAMDriver> 3, Roving patrol of mechs, vehicles and infantry
Goundry> yup ill give you this one
HMRHD> With what troops? Most of the troops would be away on what ever mission there on.
PerkinsC> For the most part, some Infantry Platoons and any Marine units would be desingated Dropship Security, Remember, these ships are a units "way home" that is ruther important.
If the host world is friendly to the unit and/or reliable (i.e. staying bought) host nation troops could be relied on to provide security, especially special purpose mercenary forces that hang out around space port dives.
LAMDriver> 4, Security personel posted at key entry points (examples: Mech doors and loading doors)
Goundry> bring snipers these guys are a big problem
HMRHD> Most likely the ship would be locked up tight unless there where actively having equipment loading or unloading. Also most ships would not have the personal available for such duty.
PerkinsC> Would not be Ship Personnel for the most part: Principly Marines, organic Infantry Platoons & Mercenary Infantry woudl be tasked.
LAMDriver> 5. Roving inner patrols
Goundry> these would cause problems but drop ship crews arent masive and neither are jumpship crews so un less there are marines on board a platoon would have to be unlucky to be stopped
HMRHD> I agree
CRP> Disagree, Security would be controlled from the bridge, infiltrators would have to be very lucky (or extremely good) to get past all the possible fail points without making even a minor mistake like walking into a Tech raiding the food locker.
LAMDriver> 6. Dropship inner sensors and cameras.
Goundry> once again this is battle tech so depends on whatera your opperating in, and these could be hacked and looped
HMRHD> Do to the lack of personal available there not being watched unless there is a reason to be.
CRP> there is always a reason for the cameras/sensors to be watched, it is a lax captain that does not have an officer of the day stationed on a ships bridge, even when it is grounded.
LAMDriver> 7. Secuity personel (I would use battlearmor) at key loctions in the Dropship like the bridge, engineering, weapons, cargo (especially if I was carrying fuel for convential vehicles)
Goundry> valid point but depends on tech levels and you onlyneed to take some of these locations not all
HMRHD> Unless there was a reason the only thing protecting such access would be electronic devises.
CRP> Engineering is almost always manned, if the engine is running, there is an engineer, and if the engine is down as in a cold shut down then there are Lots of Engineers providing Maintenance. The Armory would almost always be locked, and even then there would be a sentry or pair of sentries at each of the captains cabin and/or the bridge, engineering, the Armory, etc. of Course that woudl be for a military vessle... even without the sentries, it would not be a walk in the park by any means.
CRP>Without inside men or Suborned AStechs with 9mm tools, it is rather hard for an external force to take a target as essential to a military unit or civillian transport company: Remember, they know how valuble the Drop Ship is, and they have 300+ years of doctrine and procedures.
Sufficient force to destroy the DropShip can intemimidate ships crews into popping out and hoping for good treatment, but it would be frustrating sitting outside a dropship that is bottled up if some troopie trips over something as basic as a trip wire and cans.
Edited by Christopher_Perkins (03/29/11 11:45 AM)
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