Utopian
Sergeant
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 147
|
Economic Reforms
#161181 - 04/14/11 09:58 AM (138.163.106.72)
|
|
|
All,
I’ve been thinking about how to improve the game and make it easier for smaller empires to survive. But to preface this, I think we all can agree that (A) SOI has to be removed, (B) Tent cities have brought most low level war to a halt, and (C) most small empires simply can’t earn enough cash to recover from wars, let alone fight them at this time.
I think I have a solution to this. We add an additional low RP research item to the game under infrastructure, the “transportation network”. Empires that research this gain a 100% boost to all taxable and commercial income for every population center that is connected to another without any break in territory (contiguous). If an empire has all its population centers in friendly territory, then an empire gets an additional 25% bonus.
To discourage tent cities, we institute the following penalties. (A) Tent cities produce no taxable or commercial income, and (B) they produce no support points. They would however keep their ability to report on adjacent enemy units, if friendly units are present, as it is now.
Additional bonuses to the transportation network idea, we introduce a trade treaty; if both empires have transportation networks researched AND share a common border, then they can sign a trade treaty which gives them both a 25% income bonus, (A) an additional 25% bonus for a trade treaty with an ally, (B) a 50% income bonus for a trade treaty with a faction mate, and (C) a 100% income bonus for a faction leader.
Bonuses are cumulative and should of course be capped at some level, for example, 300%, as there is no real limit to how many borders an empire can have.
For example, empire "A" has all it's population centers in it's contiguous territory and has the transportation network researched, earning it a 125% income bonus. It shares borders with and has trade treaties with 2 non allied empires (a 50% bonus-2X25%), and has shared borders with a factionmate (50%) and faction leader (100%). Adding the bonuses together earns this empire a 325% income bonus with a cap. In other words a level 1 empire with a daily net income of $1000/nev day would now earn $3250/nev day.
These bonuses can also be targeted by war. Cities or empires isolated would impact an empire's bottom line and it's ability to recover from war, or even enable an empire to benefit from war, once it has been won.
Economically, this will also benefit smaller factions when applied to taxable income. However, I am unsure as to the impact on the game's inflation rate. Hopefully those of you who are wiser than I can look at the historical data to determine this one.
Thoughts?
--------------------
Neveron: A Story of Blood, Sweat and Beverages or: How I learned to stop worrying about Peel while enjoying my beer
http://mattbuck.irongalaxy.com/neveron/index.html
|
ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: Utopian]
#161182 - 04/14/11 06:40 PM (70.170.53.45)
|
|
|
one down side i can see, is it promotes the core problem.
other then that, it has a lot of potential. I would limit the bonuses for allies/factionmates, since most people would hd/core in the fls area even more then currently done.
as for removing of soi, i disagree with this one. In its current form, it is a pain. if modified correctly, it will actually become an asset. It they institute the auto zone buy, it will create an area around cities, thus limiting the effectiveness of tents, since you couldnt really make them hd city zones only. but thats another thread.
|
DeathStar
Corporal
Reged: 02/05/11
Posts: 59
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: ghostrider]
#161188 - 04/15/11 10:16 PM (74.193.52.102)
|
|
|
this idea is absolutely fabulous.
First off there is no Core Problem. Try and build a core today. Its insanely expensive. That argument only works for the bitter.
To code it all in though would be a pain atm. I suggest the simple solution of removing empire Intel.
If i cant see your top w/e cities then there is no reason to tent.
I have Lwd Neveron and just about everyone on it for 8 years. It got really easy when we could see where the infra was.
It really isnt that hard.
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: DeathStar]
#161192 - 04/17/11 12:49 AM (220.255.2.90)
|
|
|
I agree with the idea of removing empire intel, but only if tent-empires has something done about them before that. Otherwise, removing empire intel while leaving them alone would only make them even harder to take down.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 649
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: MatthewAce]
#161194 - 04/17/11 02:06 AM (71.193.82.41)
|
|
|
how about a set percentage of an empire's pop zones become revealed once you declare war on them, then a level 2 with 12 zones has say, 2 zones revealed, while the 2 with 120 zones 50 revealed, and base the percentage off of the number of zones, so small empires that aren't spread out all over only have a tiny percent, meanwhile the same size empire thats spread everywhere has a much larger percent revealed?
--------------------
My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#161195 - 04/17/11 02:49 AM (220.255.2.47)
|
|
|
Sounds like an interesting idea.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
marauderch
Corporal
Reged: 12/20/09
Posts: 71
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: ghostrider]
#161200 - 04/17/11 03:43 PM (64.77.210.159)
|
|
|
Quote:
one down side i can see, is it promotes the core problem.
other then that, it has a lot of potential. I would limit the bonuses for allies/factionmates, since most people would hd/core in the fls area even more then currently done.
as for removing of soi, i disagree with this one. In its current form, it is a pain. if modified correctly, it will actually become an asset. It they institute the auto zone buy, it will create an area around cities, thus limiting the effectiveness of tents, since you couldnt really make them hd city zones only. but thats another thread.
So there is a tent problem and a core problem? So how are we supposed to build our empires if we shouldn't tent them or core them?
|
ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: marauderch]
#161208 - 04/17/11 10:59 PM (70.170.53.45)
|
|
|
problem is, you cannt build an easily defensible empire without doing one or both. Ai blows, as well as the extreme terrain, neg gunned units, multiranged towers as well as a slew of other things.
as for kji's suggestion, that has merit.
Most people i see complaining about the empire intel seem to dislike the fact that people can counter attack their zones without having to spend hours searching for them. If you are so concerned about that, defend those zones instead of having most if not all your bv tied up in the attacking forces.
As for making more money, it would also be a good thing if the price of things like buildings or buying a remote zone. Making more money brings the same arguement that bringing other costs down does. It becomes too easy to level up quickly, or atleast that was the arguement i heard.
|
cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: ghostrider]
#161210 - 04/18/11 05:13 AM (173.171.168.13)
|
|
|
i dont see tents as an issue. it was an adapted def that players had to do. obv not every one. i have a lvl 7 with 2 citys the other has a pop of 2. problem is people seem to want to know where your stuff is just to walk in and kill it and yell i win? in real life i can tell you the military dsnt tell anyone, anything about how many of what is where? the entire money system in this game needs to be redone period. from faction transfers to being charged a tax on my resources? i have to pay daily for the mine and you tax me also? i have to pay for TAs why? why is their no bank system? i have no way to make money off my own money why? so as ghost pointed out people want to kill your stuff but....dont want to really lose theirs lol. tbh you guys are making ideas that will prob never see the light of day. fixing the messed up code and AI are prob SM #1 prior. and hes said this could take up to a yr to get this game to were he wanted it. and pop only zones are not the only thing that pop up in the city list..i may be wrong but i thought it was pop 1st than it went bY cf factors? id rec some kind of raid like option for intell. you send in a recon unit to try and find city pop or units. than again you have to have a way to counter this? say the old patrol stuff we used to have?. if balance is to be fair. you have to have an option for def players that errr work for a living? some of the ideas are good and some are not. but tbh here i know very little of coding. these ideas could take months if not even yrs. id be happy with a working game - all the loop holes, and an AI that didnt day dream. l8rs DABOSS
--------------------
yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
|
Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1313
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: cbtgod]
#161214 - 04/18/11 07:00 AM (76.28.186.150)
|
|
|
Removing empire intel does two very important things:
One, it gives all players the security of anonymity. Anonymity was the absolute best defense for noobs, and for casual players. I'll say with 100% confidence that it was the addition of empire intel that spelled the beginning of the end for noobs on Neveron. Saying it is only defenders that do not want empire intel is nonsense... every empire and every player benefits from the privacy of empire details.
Two, it quite simply slows war down.
War as it exists today is poorly served by this auto intel. From the very earliest days of Neveron.
The most important thing to remember is this is just one system that needs to be looked at. The problem with LW today is actually a convergence of 3 systems that all are in desperate need of change:
1. The war declaration system
2. Automatic empire intel
3. SOI
Return the ability to end wars at our discretion, without penalty, return the anonymity of empires that was the #1 influence in the survival of players/empires and especially noobs, and solve the problem of SOI being so economically devastating and unfun, when it should be interesting and useful. Then, when those 3 things are fixed, war on Nev will be awesome again.
Oh and Utopian, that's a very interesting concept. I think a lot could be done to add more simcity style gameplay. Cores aren't a big deal, especially now that you can't dp up 0 buildable zones. I'd love to see map level improvements at some point, for example. How about building an actual road between two cities that gives a modest commercial boost. Hell, what if you could establish actual trade routes with the cities of neighboring empires. There are a ton of possibilities. The only thing I would suggest, with regards to your specific example, is that maybe the commercial bonuses are a bit high. =P
--------------------
HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
|
ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: Katrar]
#161215 - 04/18/11 07:37 AM (70.170.53.45)
|
|
|
cores arent a big deal for those that have them, but for those of us that either have to spend hundreds of billion nev dollars or lots of real dollars to get/make them, it is. It is not an option availible to all, so it should be modified to make it even. If they arent a big deal, then remove them from all empires.
To the same effect, the over 1009 buildables is the same thing. move the excess buildables into another zone owned by the player make it even to all.
The problem with noobs being targetted has some issues with empire intel, but the base of the problem is the people that hit noobs constantly. They are looking for easy targets. They dont want a real fight, otherwise they would hit the people that are the heavy lw'ers.
As been said before, this is a war game. The ability to strike back quickly, once hit, is needed. For those that seem to have their lives wrapped around the game, they sit and plot out where everyone on the enemies sides zones are at, but seem to not want the enemy to be able to fight back without wasting hours upon hours of their lives looking over the maps.
Honestly, my main war empire is a level 3 and spread out in tents. I could and should spread it even further, and no, they are not all hd only zones. Main reason i did any of the 'fake' warring wasnt for rep, but to counteract the skill ups. Even with constant training, i would lose skills with everything and skill down less then 1/8 th of the units before the next round.
Having some structures that you can build to increase revenue or even defense would be a great addition. Roads/rail would be a good way to improve revenue for empires. Walls would help with defense. Placement of some buildings other then towers is another.
Honestly, there should be some tech that should help as well. Transportation management would be good. Yeah stuff like this would be well into the future, but would help keep peoples hopes for the game alive and going strong.
|
jake
Sergeant
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 147
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: ghostrider]
#161216 - 04/18/11 04:07 PM (24.210.62.148)
|
|
|
They added the empire zone coordinates about the same time I was using a program provided by some unnamed people that cataloged every zone in the game and allowed me to filter by level and I could find every zone an empire had. I don't know if that program is still around with the activeX control or not.
The biggest issue is that empires are bigger than the player base can support. What's the point of playing with tiny empires (level 8 and below) when everybody has a level 10+? Oh I forgot, level 10+ are to big to play with because there's not enough people to pilot effectively.
No one can start today and "win" with a new empire without either donating hundreds and thousands of dollars or being supplied by a larger empires.
You need to make everything smaller if you want the player base to grow again.
|
Utopian
Sergeant
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 147
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: jake]
#161217 - 04/19/11 09:50 AM (138.163.106.71)
|
|
|
Jake, I couldn't agree more, which is one of the reasons I came up with this idea. I personally don't see cores as an issue, as the people who usually have them are faction leaders. To that end, they are nessesary for the sustained viability of a facton. I can remember several epic HoC/NC battles where a single core was under assault for a week straight.
To also comment on donating, I used to donate. Then my wife discovered I had donated about $8k to Nev over the course of a year (2005-06). When she told me, I was even suprised. Needless to say, donations are extremely difficult for many of us now days with the economy the way it is. We're stuck playing for free, and that just isn't fun for most, as we have to wait for caps to clear, transfers to happen, ect. It's another reason for this idea. Throw tents into the mix, and then the war game portion of Nev becomes worthless.
Katar, I agree the intel page/function does need looked at. I remember when I first started playing I was using the L2/L3 maps to search for targets. However, with the intel page the way it's set up now, it still doesn't mean you will find a decent target. When I picked Nev up again last year, I wasted millions hitting tented empires looking for a decent fight. Now I've given up war until SM starts ripping out what's wrong, as I have no way to recover any resources or cash without risking the complete distruction of my empire. And i wish I had an idea for intel functions. I think it's always been Nev's weak point.
Wow, I never thought this idea/suggestion would bring this much disccusion. It does seem to bode well for the future of Nev.
--------------------
Neveron: A Story of Blood, Sweat and Beverages or: How I learned to stop worrying about Peel while enjoying my beer
http://mattbuck.irongalaxy.com/neveron/index.html
|
ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: Utopian]
#161219 - 04/19/11 10:14 PM (70.170.53.45)
|
|
|
tents and cores all come down to one major issue.
How much are you willing to waste on war trying to kill either?
That is where alot of the game has some things that need tweaking. Some issues with lack of funds is the game was not meant to have a mech lance in a level 2/3 and nothing else for defense. Since most of the people that have been here a while have put almost all of their bv in a single assault unit, since doing otherwise is just asking to be ripped apart seperately, there is little to no bv left for defense. So instead of possibly losing the force to someone while offline, they set up tents to avoid losing everything in one fell swoop.
Cores are a problem since new people cannt build them. And most have several empires they use to pounce on anyone that tends to try, unless in a major alliance. Some cores are extremely outrageous.
All this leads to money not being enough, yet ive heard that if there were enough money, more people would have larger empires, meaning more server space taken, more money needed and the cycle continues.
I agree that it is nearly impossible to do research while funding an empire at lower levels, yet for those of us that are new, without a large empire to fund them, we still have to research several things such as towers, or other things that would help in war, such as the level 1 repair bay. Without the bay, you cannt hd vehicles. Sometimes even reloading is almost impossible when fls or higher level empires are at war. Even some of the smaller/newer empires cannt get certain parts.
With stablizing the markets, this can be offset somewhat, but still needs some more fine tuning.
As for responces, you will get them in most suggestions, since everyone wants to see things done right, and without other opinions, its hard to get all sides of a thought.
|
ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: ghostrider]
#161247 - 04/24/11 11:35 PM (70.170.53.45)
|
|
|
well this isnt a reform but does deal with economics..
The instant funds from dp.
Would it be worth making it so 20 mil is the base, then add x amount per level of empire its cashed in?
I was figuring 2 mil/level, so level 0 would be 20 mil, level 1 would get 22 mil and so on. Granted selling it directly to players gets alot more, but for those of us that dont have large empires to launder the money through, it would give us some way of making a little more money. Either that, or dont count dp sales towards the caps. (second option isnt a very good one in my opinion.)
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: ghostrider]
#161249 - 04/25/11 03:47 AM (220.255.1.151)
|
|
|
I like the idea of the Instant nevcash having empire bonus.
A random idea to add - what if it has a subtle bonus from Merchant Class (+x million nevcash per level in Merchant Class) just to add some kicks. Probably not a very good idea, but sounds cool (to me).
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: MatthewAce]
#161250 - 04/25/11 07:51 AM (70.170.53.45)
|
|
|
hadnt thought about that, but it does sound like a good idea. make it enough to be worth while, without making it too much.
|
buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: ghostrider]
#161328 - 05/09/11 03:22 PM (125.239.226.35)
|
|
|
tents and cores all come down to one major issue.
How much are you willing to waste on war trying to kill either?
There is a much bigger issue here. 1. the only thing we're trying to do is kill each other which leads to 2. we try and do that as quick as possible, which normally means vs AI
If the game could encourage more PVP with more battles & deplomacy, with less empire wide destruction, it would a great thing!
|
ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: buc]
#161329 - 05/09/11 08:47 PM (70.170.53.45)
|
|
|
from what ive seen, people dont want pvp. if they did they would attack the people that have it such as the major land war people. Most want to kill things without the risk of losing anything they own.
But as for the original post. it looks like the average sales program seems to be working again. hopefully we can keep it from getting to high again.
|
wonko
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/08/06
Posts: 273
Loc: park city UT
|
Re: Economic Reforms
[Re: ghostrider]
#162167 - 09/30/11 06:14 AM (76.23.60.40)
|
|
|
diddn't this start out as transportation and trade treaties?
great ideas, but make them cheap to research, low level empires get screwed enuf on research, which is why i advocate every empire being able to build lvl 1 rb's, how hard is it to reload and bolt on new armor?
--------------------
Democrats are the root of all evil
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
