thesword88
04/04/10 11:24 PM
24.167.4.26
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I am running a CBT game for the first time and all my players just stack on heat sinks and medium lasers. No other weapon seems to be able to keep up with this. Is the humble medium laser actually the best weapon in the game? This seems counter intuitive but at 5 dmg for 1 ton and 1 crit I'm not seeing anything better.
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Gamow
04/05/10 06:32 AM
78.98.198.136
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I dont think so. The best mechs in tech level 1 were usually made of either like 30x machine guns with jump jets, or 12x LRM-5 with almost no speed both trying to score either a critical hit or a head shot.
But aside from munchkin-ing and powergaming, I think all weapons are equally good except of obvious AC2 and maybe even AC5 which are too heavy for their low damage. The range and low heat just won't make it up for the high tonnage and low damage.
Basically Medium Laser weights 4 tons if you count up the heat sinks, and has a poor range. It's a solid secondary weapon.
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CYBRN4CR
04/05/10 07:12 AM
71.236.221.45
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Gimme an Awesome 9Q or a Rifleman IIC and I'll show your wannabe Nova players what-for. 
It is a good support weapon built for barrages, but it doesn't have much range. You'll get chewed up by mechs with long range weps before you have a chance to get into proper firing range. And even then it takes a lot of speed to make a mech with all IS medium lasers viable.
I mean sheesh Clan medium lasers (pulse and er) are better than the IS medium lasers. So if you are going on a pure damage vs tonnage/crits ratio, the Clan versions have even those beat. But you don't see the Clans fielding nothing but Nova primes or Fire Moth Ds now do you? No. Medium lasers have their place, same as any other weapon in the game, but they are not "the best."
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Cray
04/05/10 08:03 PM
173.168.115.68
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Have you compared the medium laser to Clan pulse lasers, or are you in a 3025-only setting?
Even in 3025/Inner Sphere only, there are superior combinations. Sticking to medium lasers alone hampers you against long-ranged threats. LRMs are particularly good examples - you'll have low target numbers when the medium laser can't even engage the LRM user.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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thesword88
04/06/10 02:13 AM
24.167.4.26
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We are playing before the clan invasion, I should have specified. Clearly the clan versions of the medium laser coupled with double heat sinks are better.
I can see that LRMs can also be powerful but how about autocannons, ppcs or large lasers? Even with the 4 tons including heat sinks the ml has better damage/ton. The small range increase doesn't seem to make autocannons, ppcs or large lasers worth it. Is there a use for these weapons?
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CYBRN4CR
04/06/10 06:35 AM
71.236.221.45
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Well, the primary reason I can think of for ACs (2,5,10), LLs and PPCs under Introductory Rules is what Cray touched upon - the ability to be able to hit an opponent farther than ML, SRM or AC20 range, and be able to hit an opponent easier once within those ranges.
Let's compare weapons shall we?
Assuming single heatsinks under Introductory Rules and the initial 10HS from the engine are devoted to other weapons...
AC20s, SRMs, and MLs have a rangeset of 0/3/6/9/(12). The ML is 4t with heatsinks, deals 5 damage, and has no ammo requirements. The AC 20 is 21t with heatsinks, deals 20 damage, and needs a good 3t of ammo to last a while. Thus you can mount 6 ML in the same tonnage for a total damage of 30. Certainly the ML is better. Now compared to SRMs, SRM4s and 6s have the ML beat in damage by juuuust a fraction, but they have to roll on the cluster-hit table, meaning the ML is more reliable.
AC10s and LLs have a rangeset of 0/5/10/15/(20). The LL is 13t with heatsinks, deals 8 damage, and has no ammo requirements. The AC10 is 15t with heatsinks, deals 10 damage, and needs an extra 1-2 tons for ammo depending on how much you love it. The LL is better at this range.
Now you can mount 3 ML with a ton to spare compared to a LL. Here it would be 15 damage vs 8 damage. Certainly better right? The thing is the LL gets a -2 bonus to hit you at medium range while still having a hex to spare. This means if the two mechs move at the same speed and manage to keep each other at the same distance apart, the mech with the LL will whittle you down while you will never be able to fire a shot. Of course you could close in with a faster chassis, but then other factors will determine who wins the day.
AC5s and PPCs have a rangeset of 3/6/12/18/(24). The PPC is 17t with heatsinks, deals 10 damage, and has no ammo requirements. The AC5 is 9t with heatsinks, deals 5 damage, and only needs one ton of ammo for a standard fight. At this point, you can mount two AC5s for 20t and 10 damage and ammo to worry about, or you can mount one PPC for 17t and 10 damage with no ammo worries. The PPC is better at this range.
Now you can mount 4 ML with a ton to spare compared to a PPC. Here it would be 20 damage vs 10 damage. But again, if the mech with the PPC can keep you at range, they will have a -2 bonus to hit you while you will never be able to fire a shot in return.
The only things with better rangesets would be LRMs (6/7/14/21/(28)) and the AC2 (4/8/16/24/(32)), but hands down LRMs are better. For 17t you can get either 4 LRM5s with heatsinks or 1 LRM20 with heatsinks and one ton of ammo for a damage output of 20 at the best range possible. Even the fact that you have to roll on the cluster hits table doesn't deter this benefit. So while the 20 damage from 4 MLs might be more reliable than the LRM damage, the LRM has it beat in range.
In the end, I can see why you would say that the ML might be the best for that era. However, larger energy weapons can whittle you down if enemy mechs keep you at range, and LRMs can both out-range and out-damage the larger energy weapons, but depends on ammo to keep going. So if you have 17-20t to spare and ammo is a concern and you want a ranged weapon, get a PPC; otherwise, get LRMs - they are the best for the era.
In fact, if you have enough tons to spare, get LRMs AND MLs. They compliment each other, and you don't have to miss out on either weapon. With the 10HS you get for free from the engine, I can't think of a better use than to devote them to 3-4 MLs, allowing you to devote the rest of the tonnage to LRMs, ammo, and heatsinks for the LRMs.
Looks like Catapults are in your future, my friend.
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Cray
04/06/10 08:57 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
I can see that LRMs can also be powerful but how about autocannons, ppcs or large lasers?
The comments you're getting on www.classicbattletech.com should show the potential potency of those weapons.
Quote:
Even with the 4 tons including heat sinks the ml has better damage/ton. The small range increase doesn't seem to make autocannons, ppcs or large lasers worth it. Is there a use for these weapons?
The range increase isn't small, it's up to double the MLs and then some. A PPC can reach across entire boards, while a medium laser only manages half a board. When you play on more than one board, that makes a lot of difference.
Try some AC/10s, large lasers, or PPCs on a 'Mech that's generally faster than the oppositions'. A lance of Phoenix Hawks refitted with PPCs is going to be a bloody headache to run down.
And try some LRMs. A few LRM-laden 'Mechs parked behind a hill can rain down LRMs on attackers from 21 hexes away without fear of laser-based retaliation. The only unit at risk would be the LRM spotter, and 'Mechs like the Spider, Jenner, or Locust should be able to stay out of medium laser range.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Gamow
04/06/10 12:42 PM
78.98.198.136
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Even if you have a faster mech with medium lasers versus a slower one with PPCs or LRMs, it will take you a few rounds getting within the range, while the opponent shoots you with his/her long-range weapons.
In other words, if there's Awesome (3xPPC 3/5speed) fightning a Grasshopper (4x MLaser, 1xLLaser, 1xLRM5, 4/6/4 speed), and the Awesome is moving backwards 3 per turn, grasshopper running forward with speed 6. It will take him 3 rounds to move from range 18 (max PPC range) into range 9 (max MLaser range). During those 3 rounds, Awesome will have a chance to fire 9 times (or 8 as he has only 28 heat sinks) with his PPCs over 7-11 to hit number. Let's say that is 20-30 damage - which is even before Awesome will get his best to-hit numbers (at range 3-6) for the PPCs.
Sure Awesome is a bit heavier than Grasshopper, but try to create a Mech 80 tonns, 4/6 speed, max armor, and full of medium lasers and heatsinks, and simulate the fight.
About Autocannons. Yes AC/20 have slightly worse tonnage/damage ratio than 4x medium lasers, but dealing 20 damage in one single hit-location is more devastating that 4x 5 damage locations. (Altho not as good as 10x 2point damage - but that's a whole different story). Single 20 damage hit usually gets throught the armor into the structure.
Much more questionable is the use of AC5 and AC2. Just compare Jaggermech with Catapult. There's a clear winner among them. Autocannons do have an advantage fightning the infantry, let's not forget about that. Truth is, mech vs mech, their use might be a bit disadvantageous.
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thesword88
04/06/10 10:51 PM
24.167.4.26
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Thanks for all the responses. I now see the balance for most weapons though I am convinced autocannons are underpowered as teh vs infantry bonus isnt that impressive to me
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Cray
04/07/10 08:37 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Thanks for all the responses. I now see the balance for most weapons though I am convinced autocannons are underpowered as teh vs infantry bonus isnt that impressive to me
AC/2s and /5s do leave something to be desired. Given a choice, I swap them for PPCs or LRMs.
The AC/10 is a low heat, mid-ranged weapon that works very well in the 3020s. It's a nice alternative and supplement to PPCs and large lasers, especially after you mount the first LL or PPC and have almost used up the base 10 heat sinks.
The AC/20 has its moments, too - nothing clears out a space on the board like an AC/20. Players that will march their 'Mechs into close range of a 'Mech laden with 6 or 8 medium lasers will avoid an AC/20 like the plague. Locusts and Wasps and other light 'Mechs can survive several medium laser hits, but they'll be cut in half by an AC/20. Many medium 'Mechs can shrug off a dozen or more medium laser hits, but they'll be critted on the first AC/20 hit. Statistically, medium lasers can deliver the same or more damage per turn than an AC/20, adding up to equal or faster kills, but death by a thousand paper cuts doesn't have quite the same intimidation value as "Oh, shit, I just lost my left arm and left torso to one hit!"
Though, personally, I'd take a PPC or AC/10 and some medium lasers over an AC/20. 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (04/07/10 08:39 AM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/05/11 03:55 PM
68.31.190.5
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I am all for MLs verse an AC20 but one battle had me needing a change of pants. I found my self up against a King Crab in a heavy forest. I was in a custom mech 75 ton with 6 MLs and 2 LLs. I was jumping all over the place trying to get behind the King Crab to take out his back armor. The radar bunker that was the target was destroyed so I called a retreat before I lost my entire command to that dam King Crab.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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KamikazeJohnson
11/12/11 12:39 AM
50.72.195.60
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I would have to say, yes, the ML is overall the best, most balanced, most versatile weapon in the IS level 1 tech set, and any 'Mech of any size should carry at least 2 of them unless there's a damned good reason. Outstanding as secondary weapons on mediums, heavies, and assauts; effective as primary weapons on lights. However, once you get past 3-4 of them, it's usually better to throw some versatility into the mix.
Keep in mind as well the type of battle. On a single-map, mostly clear terrain duel, a fast 'Mech massing MLs will usually have the advantage. Larger maps make ranged weapons much more significant. Up-size it to a lance-on-lance battle or larger, and you really start to see the effectiveness of weapon combos.
Another design point: I stack 3 MLs onto my 'Mech at 1 ton each, relying on the integral 10 HS. Now I can add 2 more (plus HS) for 8 tons, increasing my close-range firepower by 10, or I can add a PPC and one HS for 8 tons, adding 10 damage at long range. Unless I expect to be fighting excluively at close range, the PPC is clearly superior here, as it allows me to make double use of the integral HS since I would usually not want to fire the PPC and the MLs at the same time. I like to design my heavies with the ability to fire either close-range or long-range weaponry with only moderate heat buildup. This allows me to field much more total damage potential than specializing in a single range bracket. Usually.
To sum up: ML is definitely the best weapon, but it can't always cut it on its own.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Rotwang
11/20/11 06:24 PM
94.227.112.125
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I wouldn't say it the best weapon, but it is a highly efficient weapon, low weight, good damage, decent heat, decent range. It's a great weapon for light mechs and an excellent backup for heavies and assaults. The only drawback is range, or better said, lack of it. Never leave home without one.
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Hythos
11/22/11 06:26 PM
137.78.94.42
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Consider that the weight/critical allowance to carry 4ML has a considerable benefit vs heavier gear, there's little advantage to NOT take several ML to use when 6hexes or closer.
This is situational based, obviously, but the use of 1 PPC + 3ML (or 4) is highly desireable in my book. You're look'n at 10 tons of gear that can fit on almost any mech (12 if you're concerned about the extra heat from movement) and still be effective. Additionally, the 10 heatsinks can be bolted-on to most engines.
Any practical combat will see to-hit values of +3 to +4, which puts the medlas as choice within 180m, and the PPC effective up to 360m - needing a roll of 9 or 10 with avg gunnery=difficult, but highly efficient, compared to other 3025-L1 options for the same potential.
(BTW, I just noticed this post was originally written a year and a half ago; hopefully my input may help anyone reading it in the future )
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
11/24/11 05:09 PM
184.249.36.218
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One should never have medium lasers because doing so you will be accused of being a munchkin player.
To be safe and to avoid from being accused of being a munchkin player you need to equip your mech with nothing but AC2s and only carry one ton of standard ammo.
Now help us save the world from munchkin player and convince all of your friends to only arm there mechs with AC2s.
Now we will return to sane discussions. =P
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Raplet
12/11/11 02:10 AM
68.150.148.233
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I wouldn't classify the medium laser as the best weapon. However, I would classify as the benchmark.
Unless the mech is an energy weapon wonder (ie. Awesome/Charger SB/Marauder II) it should have a couple torso mounted medium lasers for use as weapons of last resort.
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