ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 521
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opinion of a big issue
#164153 - 02/17/12 10:49 PM (70.173.25.223)
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I believe alot of the game that has locked up politics, and war in general is the amount of real cash that some of the players have invested in their empires.
Seeing years of work, especially when people have pumped real money into the empires is causing alot of the 'over' reaction. It is not an over reaction. It is a very reasonable reaction to the potential, or even real loss of that money thats is causing this backlash.
This is probably the biggest reason behind alot of the hate in the game.
From the owners view, it is a good thing to remove peoples donated things from the game, so they donate more.
From a players view, alot see it as a way to get more donations out of them.
This issue is one that needs to be addressed before the game can advance without being a player vs admin problem in the future.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: ghostrider]
#164171 - 02/18/12 05:30 PM (24.17.137.174)
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I both agree and disagree, ghostrider.
I agree that RMT and $ investment/involvement is deeply ingrained at all levels of this game, its community and how people at various levels interact. It's impossible to avoid, especially in a game with as bloated and lets face it pretty much ridiculous as Neveron with how expensive things are.
However, I disagree that people over-reacted solely because of how things would impact them $ wise. Here's why I disagree:
1. Most players with large amounts of $ invested have been very supportive of propsed changes that would in many cases radically affect their own empires/investments. So I don't believe people are just uniformly incapable of dealing with changes that impact their $.
2. Most players do not have large amounts of $ involved, and they have been just as vocal as those that do.
3. Many players, in fact, have no $ involved and they have also been just as vocal as those that do. Some have actually made quite a bit of money from playing this game, and same thing.
I think it should be clear that most people 'strongly' reacted (I refuse to use the word 'over') because they feel the changes are unwise and do not actually solve the problems SM and Randy said they were intended to solve, seriously harm noobs, and unnecessarily damage empires for reasons that make no real sense.
I'll say again, most players - myself included - would willingly gut our own empires if it was for a good cause or reason. The changes we have seen are not good causes or reasons.
That make some sense?
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 521
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Katrar]
#164174 - 02/18/12 08:13 PM (70.173.25.223)
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If i made it sound like money was the only reason they reacted so strongly, then I didnt emphasize the hours put into the game enough.
I very well agree that alot of the reaction comes from largely expensive, not real money wise, changes that do not do more then drive people into frustration with the game and the owner.
The sense i can see from alot of the harsh changes seems to be donation driven, like alot of the older changes were before sm got the game.
I myself have a tented level 3. Being tented seems to be the ONLY reason it hasnt been messed with. I could be wrong, but costing over 150 mil to reach cf 1 is not something people wanna spend. And that is not including any costs of units destroyed in the attempts.
Sad things is when i was saying about people not wanting to lose their items, I didnt think the admins would be the ones that seemed to be the worse offenders.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: ghostrider]
#164175 - 02/18/12 08:23 PM (24.17.137.174)
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I re-read your post and yeah I can see more of what you were saying now.
tbh I am not sure how significant donations were in the thought process behind these changes. Its certainly possible that they were a big part of the discussion. And they should be part of the discussion but not to such a degree that shaking down players for extra coin becomes the answer. =/
My disgust tells me yeah thats the answer.
But reality shows me MW and says, Randy doesn't care much about donations on his own game why would he care on SM's. And SM... I think its more likely that SM really thinks/thought these changes were "for the better" and a good new direction. So personally I suppose... I think that donations didnt play much of role in these changes, except incidentally.
Course, not being there while they talked... its all a big question mark.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 521
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Katrar]
#164177 - 02/18/12 08:35 PM (70.173.25.223)
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I would give sm the benefit of a doubt on the donation thing. But not for much longer. I could use a bunch of paranoid responses for why randy would want the game to fail now, but wont.
Randy may not care about the new game for donations, but how much of it is because of things like his royalties from nev or other things done? He may have someone sponsoring his new game, or even paying him to make it. Dont know.
Real money is a problem that will hamper any changes to the game. As was said multiple times before. People dontate and think it gives them a say in what happens. Some of this should be considered before some major changes. If we donate for say, the servers, we should expect some sort of update on whats going on before we log in and find out everything has changed. A week, or 2 would have been nice.
Some changes were known a while ago, but forgotten. Remind us of them when they go into effect.
Our donations are also that. Donations. We have not bought stock in the game, and not share holders. Even the big companies like blizzard tell people before they are doing major changes to the game. Yes, even diablo 2 and the other non p2p games they run.
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Phred
Sergeant
Reged: 01/20/12
Posts: 174
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: ghostrider]
#164219 - 02/20/12 11:00 AM (161.184.189.112)
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Personally i was hoping that by saying I had donated money, would maybe add a little more weight to my statements. Maybe warn new players reading the forums SM doesnt care about you, whether you donate or not. I have started 10 new empires, only one has remained even, not ahead, just even. The other 9 have gone backwards for my efforts. So, yes it appears he does not want new players and new donations coming in. Sure is not going to happen with the way things are.
What does he want? To be hoenst, I have no idea. Maybe it is just a power trip for him and he gets off on it. Seems as likely as anything else.
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: ghostrider]
#164250 - 02/20/12 10:05 PM (24.103.210.226)
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Quote:
From the owners view, it is a good thing to remove peoples donated things from the game, so they donate more.
I have NEVER said this was my policy, nor implied it in any fashion.
I can not be responsible for other peoples inaccurate assumptions and misguided conclusions
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: ghostrider]
#164252 - 02/20/12 10:57 PM (24.103.210.226)
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Quote:
Randy may not care about the new game for donations, but how much of it is because of things like his royalties from nev or other things done? He may have someone sponsoring his new game, or even paying him to make it. Dont know.
your right, you dont know, and you should have stopped that thought right there. where do you come up with some of this stuff ghost? i mean seriously??
No one, including Randy and Wayward_Son, are getting any 'royalties' from Neveron. Randy was PAID to come here for CodeFest. Randy was my guest. Randy was treated horribly in chat at his initital appearance, even before any of the changes where impemented. These 'veteran' players that are the pillar of the Neveron community, where some of the first to show disrespect. Some people where just plain rude at best. Here I thought we had all gotten past all that 'old hatred'. Guess I was proven wrong in a big way.
Randy is not working with some alternate agenda to ruin Neveron so that all the players here will come running to his new game. In fact, quite the opposite. By the time he left for AZ, he couldnt wait to get on the plane. By day 6 he had remembered all to well why he wanted OUT of dealing with Neveron's playerbase way back in 2006...the insane reactions from the playerbase over the slightest changes. He has NO such issues with his new game, and he guts things as needed when he needs to over there.
Quote:
People dontate and think it gives them a say in what happens. Some of this should be considered before some major changes.
Again, another thought that should have just stopped there. There is no way that any business out there makes core decisions based on its customers popular opinions. Yes a 'trend' might help a company decide what products to produce, but the consumer has ZERO say in purhcasing the manufacturing equipment or who to make purchase agreements with for its suppliers.
Neveron players, whether donors or not, need to stop thinking they have some final say in things. Yes Neveron willingly will ask for feedback and ideas. However, there is NEVER any understanding, let alone an agreement, that an idea will ever be implemented into the game.
I have been talking to any and all player willing to spend the time to do so, via chat / forums / email / phone, discussing all the things that where right and wrong about Neveron.
I clearly posted that CodeFest was coming, and that we would be working on a lot of things, trying to get as much done as possible in that short 2 weeks. I could have kept Randy here for a solid month and still not addressed every issue.
So there was plenty of 'notice', but apparently that wasnt clear to everyone.
The 'Degrade' system was in fact a new idea, to many old problems. It was suspended after 12h, and all 'damage' was repaired, since there was not time to properly educate the players on its purposed and value. Many players have looked at it since, and have already figured most of it out. Not everyone is against the idea.
Here is the kicker tho...Randy is no longer here to help us debug it. Im sure its not perfectly coded, and Im sure it will need some tweaking. Should be really interesting trying to debug that with out Randy around. Obviously we never got to debugging Degrade.
In fact, I was very displeased that we wasted as much time on it as we did in #neveron, constantly explaining bits and pieces of it over and over as new players came and went into chat. Most of Fri evening and Sat morning was 'wasted' dealing with Degrade. Ironically I had already disabled it at 1AM Sat...great use of CodeFest time there! Sunday was our planned 'regroup' day and no 'coding' was done.
As for needing Randy to debug things...the Artifical Intelligence [AI] program for example, had to be recompiled and reinstalled several times during the first week, until we had it finally running correctly. The Zone Conquer program had also been rewritten in March 2011, but it had never properly run...and has been kept up by constant band aid temp fixes created by me. That program now runs smoothly on the new servers. I dislike the program and the way it functions, but it RUNS, so it will be left alone until a later when there is time to address it properly.
Randy was key to making all that happen!
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#164253 - 02/20/12 11:10 PM (24.17.137.174)
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SM, what's funny is that Randy is treated better in chat than you are. lol
Seriously, you just don't get it. We, the hateful spiteful shitty community, however, gets that you will never get it. So I guess we just keep playing, without donating, and move on when the servers finally shut down. Which they will because you are the Forrest Gump of game admins.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 648
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Katrar]
#164256 - 02/20/12 11:20 PM (76.17.189.42)
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Quote:
There is no way that any business out there makes core decisions based on its customers popular opinions.
tell that to netflix and those banks that wanted to start charging more for debit use.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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Vindication
Corporal
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 53
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#164268 - 02/21/12 05:21 AM (65.87.39.230)
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seems my post never made it through the first time so here goes. Randy couldnt wait to leave and remebered why he left Nev back in 2k6 from the irrational player explosion when changes were made (paraphrasing) Shadow did you even play during FFWARs or were you a johnny come latley that started afterwards? Have you even had a WAR during your stay On Nev? Do you even realise that your lvl 11 empire Looserville has close to 10k zones thats more than some empires 2-3 times your empires size whats the amount of lag your empire causes daily with all the zone checks? Is it even possible that you have any idea of what the player base wants for a playable game? Cause I can tell you it isnt what youve come up with so far, and Im being lenient by saying so far cause there maybe improvements in the future if the game survives the results of codefist. If you read back the chat logs you will see that the producing empires are moving to commercials to replace income to stay ahead of the trainning rate curve. Now as anyone can plainly see empires no longer producing cheap vehcs and mechs and parts hurts who? The new player, the guy youre hoping will stay and donate. and when the new player cant afford to have a military and older established players see the new guy building to get some income to afford the over priced units on the market guess what they get hit and thier empire ruined and they quit playing. Not exactly the condusive atmosphere you are hoping for with a new player base of peeps that wont last a week if the older player base doesnt want them too. but anyways Im tired and need to sleep so you have a nice day and give whats being said more of a thought than reacting irrationaly when your feelings get hurt by the comments of the player base either here or in chat or pubmail
its a game and games are suppose to be fun and be played not micro managed because admins make unrealistic changes and call them features.
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Old age and Treachery
will overcome Youth
and skill
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#164276 - 02/21/12 09:03 AM (24.17.137.174)
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Quote:
There is no way that any business out there makes core decisions based on its customers popular opinions. Yes a 'trend' might help a company decide what products to produce, but the consumer has ZERO say in purhcasing the manufacturing equipment or who to make purchase agreements with for its suppliers.
lol somehow I missed this. You really believe this, SM? that's funny. Companies bow to consumer pressure all the time. Many, especially smaller companies (if which Neveron would probably be considered a very very very small company) listen very closely to what their core clientele has to say. You are full of it. I can't believe you actually wrote that.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Katrar]
#164288 - 02/21/12 09:58 AM (24.103.210.226)
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Kato: you also apparently failed at reading what i said. there is no company out there that lets some client decide what production machinery to purchase. Those decisions are made internally, by the people that are directly responsible for those duties. The products actually created are influenced by trends, which is where the client has indirect feedback. Again, no direct 'instructions' or orders given from the client to the company, regardless of how many widgets that customer may have purchased, or implies they will purchase.
That was my point to the comments about how Neveron needs to start doing what its player base 'demands'. There are players out there that actually agree with many of these 'unpopular' changes. There are still people that enjoy the game, even with the newest systems in place. There are still people that are actually DONATING as well.
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Neveron Promo Code: online gaming rocks
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Phred
Sergeant
Reged: 01/20/12
Posts: 174
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Katrar]
#164289 - 02/21/12 10:09 AM (161.184.189.112)
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You really have no clue about anything do you? PFFT, thinking consumers have some sort of influence over companies, what a lark!
LMFAO
Degrade was a 'waste' of your time SM, becuase it was a 'waste' of our time. How can you expect to just flip a switch where our empires crumble overnight, with ZERO notice I might add, and expect everyone to be happy about it? Can you really not see how stupid of a comment this is? Maybe tell us about it before hand? Maybe not tell us it is some weird bug that you dont know about, then announce it as a feature? Come on, even the blind, stupid, deaf people have to see what is going on here.
I personally would never had sent any money to Neveron if I had known:
1. Randy still had input on the game
2. Randy was going to code
3. Randy was going to have anything to do with the game other than consulting
4. We would wait 6 months to get the 'new hardware'
(which is really nothing other than some RAM, a couple hard drives and a couple CPUs, looks like most of the 7.5K went to Randy, YAY!)
5. We still woudlnt have our bonus or mech draw
6. SM was going to do what he please regardless of player feedback, this was a joke to placate the players into sending money, then SM going ahead and doing what he wants.
All in all, we got conned. Yes, we got played and now SM owns Neveron and we helped him to get it. I guess fool me twice.....
And no, I dont expect special treatment like some players, for sending in money. What I do expect is for SM to follow through on his promise to listen to the players. That, obviously, just isnt going to happen.
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Phred
Sergeant
Reged: 01/20/12
Posts: 174
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Phred]
#164290 - 02/21/12 10:15 AM (161.184.189.112)
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Yes, but you said you wanted to work with us. And that was just a plain bald-faced lie.
And you can't be more wrong SM. There are plenty of companies that listen very carefully to the kind of infrastructure their customers want. And yes, even down to the machinery.
You are blind to your own ignorance. Coupled with your unwilingness to grow intellectually, you are never going to make Neveron fun the way it used to be. You just do not have the right stuff.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1812
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Phred]
#164302 - 02/21/12 11:14 AM (72.77.197.22)
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well SM you are uhhhhhhhh clueless you 100% clueless about what companies bow down to im a manager in retail. and we use opinion polls and feedback to errrrr yeah get what customers want. as far as what you did. you just said i really dont care what you want or need. you didnt ask anyone their ideas on your changes? aka handcuffs for empires. and you have said it more then once dont like leave neveron. so you obv have no idea what is needed to make customers happy in any type of supply and demand setup. i really dont care to hear anymore of your mommy i dropped my ice cream stuff. its getting old. you did what you did its that simple. dont try to make it what it wasnt. *thumbs up* keep up the good work! l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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slaine202
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 271
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#164344 - 02/21/12 03:49 PM (90.200.65.254)
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Again, another thought that should have just stopped there. There is no way that any business out there makes core decisions based on its customers popular opinions. Yes a 'trend' might help a company decide what products to produce, but the consumer has ZERO say in purhcasing the manufacturing equipment or who to make purchase agreements with for its suppliers.
Well thats wrong on so many levels ... SM, you are in a service business (in case you weren't aware). Do you seriously believe other businesses in your sector dont respond to customer demand in terms of core decisions about functionality offered, services provided, direction and strategy?
I almost believe you really do think that! Explains a lot. 
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: slaine202]
#164359 - 02/21/12 05:03 PM (24.17.137.174)
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SM, let me give you an idea of how a company does community relations right.
Star Wars: The Old Republic by BioWare
In March I'm flying to Austin, TX for a 3 day guild leaders' summit with senior bioware developers. They want to know how we feel about the game and what sort of suggestions we have for its future. In order to accomplish this they are supporting three days of round table discussions between people that play their game (who are, as guild leaders representatives of a larger population) and the people who make the game.
I don't like everything about The Old Republic but that is a company that obviously values the direct input of its customers. The expense of a three day conference at the Hilton is nothing to sneeze at.
Many companies try very hard to please their customers, to know their customers and to produce goods and services that their customers want. You could do much worse than paying attention to their examples.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Phred
Sergeant
Reged: 01/20/12
Posts: 174
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Katrar]
#164360 - 02/21/12 05:05 PM (161.184.189.112)
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Quote:
You could do much worse than paying attention to their examples.
LOL, thanks!
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Rodon
Sergeant
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Augusta, Ga
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Phred]
#164363 - 02/21/12 05:48 PM (75.131.179.178)
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Oh, this is wonderful. A glorified cab driver giving lessons on how businesses opperate. As a former business owner, and now as a consultant and technical rep for a multinational corporation who provides engineering programs for the wood component industry, I can tell you that our clients tell us exactly what they need and that is exactly what we strive to provide. Otherwise they are no longer clients/customers, and we are out of business.
Especially in hard times, and Obama can say whatever he likes, much of the nation and world is still in a recession. Customers are a precious comodity, and they should be served to the limits of one's ability. SM, indeed hasn't a clue.
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DeathStar
Corporal
Reged: 02/05/11
Posts: 59
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Rodon]
#164372 - 02/21/12 06:25 PM (74.193.51.221)
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Lets give an analogy here.
I own a limo business. I get a customer and he asks me to drive him to the airport. Instead, I drive him to the bus station. After all it will be safer and be cheaper.
I know better than my customer right?.
Yeah right.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1812
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: Rodon]
#164380 - 02/21/12 08:00 PM (72.77.197.22)
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act katrar your right i play swtor. and ive seen the feedback messages and the the links ASKING how can we improve your game time. not our time YOUR TIME. *thumbs up* keep up the good work SM l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 521
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Re: opinion of a big issue
[Re: cbtgod]
#164384 - 02/22/12 12:42 AM (70.173.25.223)
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royalties. It was a legit question. YOU decided it was an attack on you personally, when it was designed to make people realize that randys new game is not the money maker. Wiether nev pays him or not, he has other income streams that makes mythical warfare a side project. He shouldnt NEED it to pay the bills.
Insane reactions. You are saying that people should love having a game changed without voicing their concerns about the change? Yes it went to far for alot of people. Some didnt go into the full rage mode. There has been more then a few times this same reaction has come from you.
Codefest. We were given the impression that is was to FIX problems with the game, not add new ones. As you seem to not read the WHOLE sentence, you miss out on some other info in the conversation. Now saying a few days before you started some of the stuff, 'hey, i wanna try this. tell me what you think.' would have saved you the anger that was vented at you.
With this, most game changes are done outside the main game and tested by players, and discussed whats right and wrong with it. I can see where that isnt an option here since nev isnt a big company.
The implementation of new systems without fully fixing the old problems is part of why randy was hated. Having more things piled on while simple things like ai or zone resolution constantly had issues, makes people upset.
Now cray can warn me about being disrespectful or attacking you in person. This is meant to be a reality check, but probably goes over the line.
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