Utopian
Sergeant
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 147
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You know what?
#164591 - 03/01/12 02:51 PM (70.181.174.128)
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Guys,
Lets be real here. We all love playing Nev. We want the best for it and we want it to be a successful game. But as I've been reading over the last couple of months, you guys are pretty harsh on a guy who ultimately wants the same thing you do.
Stands on Soapbox
SM, I APPRECIATE your efforts. I can't possibly begin to imagine how bad the Nev code is jacked up and how much work needs to be done, on top of your real life. Do what you can, when you can. Even though some may not admit it, we KNOW there are going to be mistakes fixing things, and seemingly good ideas may not turn out to work so well. Be persistant. Make Nev the best game out there.
Many of you have made great point and have pointed out potential errors, flaws, ect. So use it. We're the players, let's continue to give SM our feedback, alternatives, and ideas. He can't do everything on his own.
Steps Down
And if any of you fine gentlemen don't like what I just said or just want to complain instead of being constructive, go pack some sand.
Edited by Utopian (03/01/12 09:46 PM)
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Utopian]
#164595 - 03/02/12 12:06 AM (70.173.25.223)
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damn. you got down before the noose was put around your neck.
I agree sm is taking alot of heat, some of it is justified, some of it isnt. As was said before, the updates arent the end of the world horrible, just the implementation of it was.
Unlike a few peoples opinions, sm is listening to those that arent saying he is satans evil twin. He may not act on it as often as most would like, but some things will have to be done the hard way. Now break out all that money you have stored on your money soldiers and get back to paying for one of the things alot of people wanted. The general skills training.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: You know what?
[Re: ghostrider]
#164600 - 03/02/12 07:38 AM (72.77.197.22)
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wow really i talked to SM on 3 diff times on the phone went in one ear and out the other? as far as opinions as you call them well if it dsnt work its not an opinion is it? codefest was a joke. took a working game and brought us back to when wws had it last. besides trying to kill all the larger producers in the game. what again works after this codefest? handcuffs thats all thats been added more and more handcuffs. thats was about as polite as i can be today. trying not to put my fist through my monitor, while looking at all my units skill up while im on max training? l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: You know what?
[Re: cbtgod]
#164605 - 03/02/12 01:55 PM (222.155.171.234)
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Ghost, many people wanted general maint training yes. You think this is it? lol. You think we'd rather have this IN PLACE of specific unit training??
The old version of maint training was SO MUCH BETTER than this (225% was the max maint, not 1000% + maint) and we still had unit training.
After working fairly close with SM over the last year and a bit, imo, most of the heat he is getting is justified, and then some.
Utop, you might say SM wants the same as us, but you're wrong in many ways.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1313
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: You know what?
[Re: buc]
#164608 - 03/02/12 06:26 PM (24.17.137.174)
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The reason this happened is simple. SM recognizes some of the issues the game suffers from. However, he disregards the suggested fixes of anyone that played during the golden age. He sees the freedom of the golden age as chaotic and to be avoided at all costs. Therefore, the systems that were in place during the golden age are tainted. Where can he look, then, for guidance on how to fix these problems that every one - us and him - recognize. Two places:
1. His spiral bound notebooks of ideas. The problem here is that SM does not have a deep understanding of this game.
2. Randy's ideas. SM believes that Randy is a kung fu master of game design and that we the players are responsible for pushing Randy's amazing Nev-future off the tracks. Therefore, Randy's ideas are valuable to SM.
There you have it. To SM, us players are valuable as a tool to find out, or confirm, WHAT IS WRONG. But we have zero value to him, as far as I can tell, in coming up with conclusions on how to solve the problems. The answer there is SM himself and Randy.
This is a problem. A very, very big problem.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Katrar]
#164609 - 03/03/12 02:16 AM (222.155.171.234)
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Kato, you're right. The word 'SOME', sums it up. He sees SOME of the issues, because he's only truely played SOME of the game, and only understands SOME parts of it.
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: You know what?
[Re: buc]
#164616 - 03/03/12 09:41 AM (70.173.25.223)
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No, I know this isnt what you wanted for training, but as the old saying goes, 'careful for what you wish for'.
Sm seems to have a plan in his head that doesnt coincide with most of the rest of nev. Weither he is doing things just because, or if he believes it is the correct thing to do, only he knows. From the looks of it, some people seem to love the new training. In another post, someone claims to have a -11 gunner in a striker. From their story, they love the new system cuz without warring, they have some really good units. Most the rest of us dont like it since we have had skill ups after skill ups and very little USEFUL skill downs. It was expensive as hell to run when first coded, but now the price has come down.
It is interesting that alot of people had their training set to high or better, but the cost was meant to limit how many people had those settings. Most dont want to even think of trimming down empires. I mean, hell, you might now have empires that are close to being touchable from those that havent been here for 5+ years, without the horrendous losses that come from having the hd skilled units into hd only zones/cores. Then you find out, your perfect soldiers are still 3 or more points under what the enemy has sitting there.
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Protege
Corporal
Reged: 04/19/06
Posts: 71
Loc: Bakore Village
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Re: You know what?
[Re: ghostrider]
#164617 - 03/03/12 09:45 AM (65.87.39.230)
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Yeah, the PRICE LISTED went down.
What you pay is still the same.
SM confirmed this. It's broken still.
And it's driving empires broke.
Either this is an unintended consequence and he will get it fixed as soon as he understands how or can pay Randy to do it . . .
OR . . .
It's intentional to drive down the high level empires like he claims he wants to do.
You decide.
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I've stopped being nice? When the hell did I ever START being nice?
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TGA
Sergeant
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 149
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Protege]
#164620 - 03/03/12 11:59 AM (76.20.128.52)
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Why does it seem like the negative is always pointed out to be the 'true intention'? Accidents happen, perhaps he missed a page, who knows what the code actually looks like.
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- Lois: "Peter, how can you tell me to calm down, there are people trying to kill me."
- Stewie: "Really, oh I have so many people to thank. First I would like to thank God, then ummm.... oh yes, SATAN"
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Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 364
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Re: You know what?
[Re: TGA]
#164621 - 03/03/12 02:14 PM (71.99.143.111)
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Well since he already said it's broken and charging the old amount, maybe people should fuckin turn their training down on their own and stop losing all that money. Seems like common sense to me.
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Gunner]
#164625 - 03/03/12 11:23 PM (222.155.171.234)
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Would be nice to have an update for those who aren't in chat for him to tell.
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Protege
Corporal
Reged: 04/19/06
Posts: 71
Loc: Bakore Village
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Gunner]
#164635 - 03/04/12 08:30 AM (65.87.39.230)
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Sure, I can turn my training down, get money, and lose skills like a WOBBIE loses wars.
Pass, thanks. Much better for NEV if he just swallows his pride and fixes the mistake. In the real world, you have to own up to your screw-ups (intentional or not) and pay the price to make it right.
Or, you sit in the shadows, deny you are wrong, and alienate everyone arond you.
If you face the current situation Nev is in, put together what we ACTUALLY know, and then speculate on what you have faced in the past concerning how things work with Admins, what answer can you come up with?
We play. We don't have to. We LIKE to. When we stop liking to play, we either quit in disgust and Neveron suffers the loss, or we hang on bitterly, refuse to donate, drive off new players, and Neveron suffers the loss. Lose/Lose for Neveron either way.
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I've stopped being nice? When the hell did I ever START being nice?
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Protege]
#164658 - 03/05/12 01:16 PM (24.103.210.226)
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Quote:
or we hang on bitterly, refuse to donate, drive off new players, and Neveron suffers the loss
and that is the biggest problem of Neveron Community...far to many bitter old 'veterans' that refuse to move on from a game they no longer enjoy
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Is it true? Do you really suck that bad??
Neveron Promo Code: online gaming rocks
Facebook me!
My Space
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1313
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: You know what?
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#164659 - 03/05/12 01:19 PM (12.219.110.2)
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Right now at this very moment I am in a conference room with lead BioWare/EA developers. They have a troubled game and are directly engaging their playerbase to understand how to fix it.
Because of their attitude, they'll probably recover and do well.
Because of yours, SM, you almost certainly won't.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Phred
Sergeant
Reged: 01/20/12
Posts: 174
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Katrar]
#164664 - 03/05/12 02:34 PM (161.184.189.112)
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Quote:
who ultimately wants the same thing you do
To quote Hythos: "Come f'n on!!"
Get a grip. He most certainly does NOT want what we do.
/rant
Nice for you to take even more of your time to point out the obvious to a mental midget.
HE WANTS ALL VETS GONE!!
Jeesus titty **** christ when are you guys going to realise that? He **** us out of our money and is doing what he wants with it. There is a name for that a CON MAN.
SM IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU, OR THE GAME!!!
All we can do is spread the word that Neveron is garbage. Every damn place I go I say as much to everyone who is there. Do the same.
Seriously why are even half the people even bothering anymore.
What is it going to take? Really? How much more badly do you have to be **** over to realise?
He has even said it himself, GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME! HE DOES NOT WANT YOU HERE!
/rant
Edited by Phred (03/05/12 02:54 PM)
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Dag
Private
Reged: 10/07/06
Posts: 25
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Re: You know what?
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#164667 - 03/05/12 04:01 PM (84.130.121.234)
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Quote:
and that is the biggest problem of Neveron Community...far to many bitter old 'veterans' that refuse to move on from a game they no longer enjoy
A man drives in a car. Suddenly the radio gives a warning about a wrong-way driver.
And the man response: "One ??? Hundreds !!!!"
Guess who you are, SM
Someone might get smart and start rethinking when his closest advisors from the last year suddenly stumble and are unable to follow his vision. When the majority of the playerbase which (sorry to say that) have more clue about the game mechanics, have a different opinion.
Only the stubborn ignore the simplest signs.
And to bring it to a point (after another bunch of important and active players have left neveron during the last 3 days)...
Confess you want to get rid of the old verterans.
Is that the reason why every week more gets broken than fixed ?
And that tickets don't get answered and Posts that ask for a life sign of you not even answered ?
Do only special player getting response and other are not worth it ?
Is that the reason why there is still no summary update of the codefest changes ?
Or the training costs foobar still not fixed ? This is so damn Randy like.
A freaking new feature gets implemented. It breaks something and for days and weeks it doesnt get fixed. Even YOU complained in the past abbout such shitty implementations. And now its the way you do it too.
If the old players are really such a big bad thing for Neveron. Then JUST reset the database.
I bet you get rid of all old players that dont like the game anymore. And your big base of new players will stick with you and build neveron up following your vision.
But please stop with this half pregnant fat duck of a game that doesnt improve anymore...
And all that hate that goes back and forth... I rememebr the begining when you bought Nev. And your visions and promisses. Tbh not much is left.
As much as we don't like nev anymore I'm sure you don't like it neither...
Think about where your vision was 1-2 years ago and whats left and how you treat your players...
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Dag]
#164672 - 03/05/12 05:29 PM (210.86.1.168)
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Quote:
Confess you want to get rid of the old verterans.
He did, read up...
Quote:
and that is the biggest problem of Neveron Community...far to many bitter old 'veterans' that refuse to move on from a game they no longer enjoy
Like yeah, the customers (and once biggest supporters) are the biggest problem. Rock on!
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Hythos
Sergeant
Reged: 05/09/10
Posts: 148
Loc: USA
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Phred]
#164673 - 03/05/12 05:32 PM (137.78.94.42)
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Quote:
who ultimately wants the same thing you do
To quote Hythos: "Come f'n on!!"
Get a grip. He most certainly does NOT want what we do.
lol WELL, to be honest, that's not exactly what I meant; it was mostly just a 'venting' about the RNG system... I just couldn't catch a break when it comes to skill-improvements, and seemed like there was nothing I could do to influence it. Combat hasn't worked (until today, surprisingly).
However - a Pay-to-play game has two purposes:
1) Create income for the developers by providing a fast-paced "combat" sim to attract new players faster than old ones leave; Typical of a "Pay-to-win" system, and a 'max level' cap on a sliding curve - nearly never reach-able by new and old players alike, but with a relatively fast progression time-frame.
Game owners and developers make money, new players enjoy the "pvp" aspects, old players fade away. Low retention, higher turn-over. Favors "combat".
or 2) create a game for gamers with a platform that's fair and equal in opportunity for all, to encourage high retention and increase subscriptions/new-players through incentives and longevity.
In order for #2, all empires would need a 'safe zone' to where their empires can never be totally destroyed, or beaten down to a point that is unrecoverable. Long term stability, higher retention, slow new-player growth due to real-time progression. Low income for owners/developers. Favors the "Research and development" style of play.
I'm not exactly sure where Neveron had started - but I for one, would rather NOT play an 'instant action' style of game, but that's becomming a 'sign of the times' - everything is 'nao' now. It seems to be the way to go, just like WizKids believed the only way to increase the popularity of Battletech was to create a fast-action table-top POS that can be finished within an amount of time that the "generation X" would lose interest due to their exceptionally high A.D.D.
I admire that Neveron has stayed a 'persistent' world for the length of time that it has. However, even though *I* could try to stick it out for the long term, I don't see may new players (and as I'm seeing, not many of the old ones) will have the endurance to wait for another 2+ REAL years for their research, training/skills, production - to come to full fruition // yes, I know it can take 10 years, but my point is time. Some of us only have until Dec21'st to reach the pinnacle of Neveron, else it will never come. Others, see Nev as not having progressed since it began - with many elements stagnated, and they stay because there's nothing else out there... yet.
I stay, because there's nothing else out there that's persistent, and non-player run. The system may have a few issues, bugs, flaws, though I stay hopeful for what things may come. At least until we have real Battlemechs walking around, then I might be forced to dedicate some time towards that 
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 648
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: You know what?
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#164703 - 03/07/12 12:25 AM (76.17.189.42)
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Quote:
Quote:
or we hang on bitterly, refuse to donate, drive off new players, and Neveron suffers the loss
and that is the biggest problem of Neveron Community...far to many bitter old 'veterans' that refuse to move on from a game they no longer enjoy
you are a/n (insert personal attack here)
you mean those people who were seemingly going to great lengths to try and help you out? the ones who sent you christ knows how much money to allow you to "improve" the game?
way to treat your loyal supporters like dirt there bud, maybe for your next trick you can run for office?
i am so glad i have been poor the last few years, because at numerous times i felt an urge to donate to help further the great cause.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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Utopian
Sergeant
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 147
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Re: You know what?
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#164711 - 03/07/12 08:02 AM (138.163.0.43)
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Sorry SM, it looks like I'm definately a minority here on this level surface of hard packed sand.
I can understand how many of you feel, and I respect your opinions. But I have one question, and one question only.
If you hate these changes so much, and are against the majority of what SM is trying to do with Nev, why are you still playing it?
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Neveron: A Story of Blood, Sweat and Beverages or: How I learned to stop worrying about Peel while enjoying my beer
http://mattbuck.irongalaxy.com/neveron/index.html
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mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Utopian]
#164712 - 03/07/12 08:24 AM (128.243.253.104)
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I'm not.
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Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
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Phred
Sergeant
Reged: 01/20/12
Posts: 174
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Re: You know what?
[Re: mattbuck]
#164713 - 03/07/12 09:19 AM (161.184.189.112)
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The problem is he said that he was going to work with the players (closely was my impression) and implement things and fix things after long discussions.
Simply put, he lied to us about this. Sure he got a lot of input, but never took his ideas to us before implementing them. So, really what he did in the end is let us "discuss" things with him, then completely discard said discussion. He then just went ahead and did what he and Randy wanted. This is all with zero warning or discussion on his ideas. It works both ways...well... it should.
This was a flat out lie to us. This is why I no longer play and why I was, and still am, ticked off at him. Every forum, blog, site I visit where I can voice my displeasure over Neveron I do so. Every chance I get.
If SM had come to the forums here and laid out his idea for training (among other things) before implenting it, I am sure things would have gone much better. How close minded our admin must be to think the he is smarter than the rest of us. The gall, the arrogance, the sheer folly of it all. This fact alone should tell you he is never going to give you a good game, ever. He just is not capable.
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Phred]
#164722 - 03/07/12 01:52 PM (219.89.140.105)
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Utop, I've played nev since the beginning of 2001. For many years, it was the only game I played. To suggest I just walk away from nev, yes it's an option, but I have too much history here.
I have loved nev (and hated it at times), so I am simply fighting for it to become good again.
A large number of us supported SM throughout his purchase and setup etc, all the way through last year. Both financially and with time / morale support etc. When we don't like or agree with his changes, the seemingly first reaction he give us is: "If you dont like it, quit. Don't let the door hit you on the way out".
Throughout 2011, SM had (most of the time) 3 'player admins', who spent HOURS with him, disucssing things etc. All 3 are now no longer required/accepted, none are neveron ops and at least one is still banned from neveron chat rooms.
One moment, he is begging for money (with promises that he didn't follow through with), and as soon as he has that money, he is telling those same people that he doesn't need them, and to leave if they are unhappy.
The WORST thing about it all? He thinks he has done nothing wrong. We just all over-reacted without just cause.
Someone recently asked me if it was better before SM bought it (and we had 'server down' issue often), or now. To be honest (and I hope I'm proven wrong), I think it was better before. We had hope that someone could take nev and fix it. That balloon has been popped, and we're left with used rubber on the ground.
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mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
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Re: You know what?
[Re: buc]
#164726 - 03/07/12 02:40 PM (128.243.253.104)
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Quote:
...and at least one is still banned from neveron chat rooms.
Hiiiii!
--------------------
Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
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Utopian
Sergeant
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 147
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Re: You know what?
[Re: buc]
#164727 - 03/07/12 02:48 PM (138.163.0.42)
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Similar story here Buc, started playing in April 2005. Love playing Nev, and in my case, I don't have the time to play right now nor the money to donate. On top of which, for a small empire like mine, it's near impossible to even war with the current game configuration.
Maybe I'm just an optimist, or just too forgiving. I simply wish to point out that he is one person, with a job, a family, and other obligations that may take priority over Nev. I can barely play my empire as it is due to the demands of my family, career, and college courses. Oh, and I have to worry about my retirement in June from the Navy and finding a new job.
Point is, real life trumps Nev every time. And none of us are SM. None of us know what it's like to walk a day in his shoes.
Maybe I just see this too simply.
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Neveron: A Story of Blood, Sweat and Beverages or: How I learned to stop worrying about Peel while enjoying my beer
http://mattbuck.irongalaxy.com/neveron/index.html
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1313
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Utopian]
#164729 - 03/07/12 03:36 PM (24.17.137.174)
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Utop, being one guy does not excuse his attitude. Being one guy is a situation that the community has really bent over backwards to acknowledge and appreciate over the years. The problem here is as much SM's attitude towards a group of players that extended him a lot of money and a lot of good will over the past year. People don't mind slow change, and they don't mind bumps in the road. What they do mind is SM telling them their only option is to **** off and quit if they don't like the way things are being run.
And the way things are being run, by the way, is completely unprofessionally.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Utopian
Sergeant
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 147
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Katrar]
#164730 - 03/07/12 03:49 PM (138.163.0.44)
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Kato,
I will concede the point as I have not been active in chat. If SM has been unprofessional in his conduct towards the players in chat, and I wasn't there, then I cannot defend something I know nothing about, nor would it be prudent to do so.
opens mouth, inserts foot 
Edited by Utopian (03/07/12 03:55 PM)
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mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Utopian]
#164731 - 03/07/12 04:10 PM (128.243.253.104)
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Well, as buc`afk stated, he's banned the people who have tried hardest to help him, he's told people that if they don't like it they should just leave, and, oh yes, NO **** UPDATES.
Seriously, it's been a month, that is more than enough time to write a brief summary of what happened, even for someone who's busy.
--------------------
Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1313
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: You know what?
[Re: Utopian]
#164732 - 03/07/12 04:18 PM (24.17.137.174)
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In order to fully understand what has happened to the relationship between SM and the entire playerbase, it's probably helpful to have been around the past month and a half, yes.
I have to say that from a general standpoint, your comments are good and under normal circumstances I think most people would support them. However, just because SM believes veterans no longer have a place in Neveron doesn't make it so. I don't give a **** who "owns" Neveron, Neveron is its community. Its not worth two cents beyond that. Neveron belongs to you. It belongs to Ghostrider, to Rodon, to Gunner, to Frui, to Slash and Mattbuck and Codeman and DABOSS and Dieaready and Pimpslap. It even belongs to players that no longer play, moreso than SM. They made Neveron what it is. SM owns the servers and code, sure, but he sure as hell doesn't own what Neveron is. We do. We are the only thing about the game worth one damn; the community and its history. SM may disagree, and in his eye I am sure he is salivating for that future moment when only noobs pass through his game, playing just long enough to send him 10 or 20 bucks before moving on to their next facebook-like experience. We don't have a part to play in SM's dreamed of future. But that's not Neveron, and that could never be Neveron.
So no, I don't expect anyone will be that pleased to be told to step aside and make way for the glorious future that is filled with faceless donators that do not complain, but simply pay up and move along.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Pimpslap
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/13/03
Posts: 365
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Re: You know what?
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#164748 - 03/08/12 04:58 PM (12.171.57.50)
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Dont worry we are moving on, along with our donations, and friends.
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Harbingers of Chaos
COME WAR WITH US!!
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