vehicials and inferno weapons and fire

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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/29/12 05:10 AM
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Moved do to being off topic from the thread it was in.

Quote:

Fire does kill vehicles in BT faster then it does mechs. Check the rules and ignore the home ruling or thinking that is being given.




I was giving my opinion that the official fire rules should be looked at for revisement so that one shot from a inferno warhead does not destroy a vehicle in only one shot bypassing all armor and destroying the vehicle.

Do I really expect that the rules will be even considered to be revised, not at all. This subject is one of the few times where reality is used in a game and game balance is thrown out the window instead of reality is the thing that is being thrown out the window in the name of game balance.

I am surprised that I have not seen that many power gamers putting in a SRM-2 inferno launcher in there custom mech so when their mech comes across vehicles, PBI, and armored infantry that the mech can wipe them out with one shot.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
NeverSayNever
05/29/12 09:38 AM
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Quote:


[...]
This subject is one of the few times where reality is used in a game and game balance is thrown out the window instead of reality is the thing that is being thrown out the window in the name of game balance.






Do you remember?

"Life is cheap, BattleMechs are expensive."


And tanks are usually much cheaper than BattleMechs, that's why vehicles need to be more vulnerable, e.g. to inferno rounds / fire in general, simply to keep BattleMechs more special / superior.

Vehicles being less vulnerable would only lead to some min/max-ing powergamers fielding even more of them which could be bad for a Mech game.

Just take a look at Neveron, sometimes also known as / called "Tankeron" or "Tank Rush Commmander" (TM), where many players tend to use hordes of expendable tanks - simply because they are rather cheap to build and or replace - while complaining loudly about the lack of 'pure' Mech vs Mech battles ...


Quote:


I am surprised that I have not seen that many power gamers putting in a SRM-2 inferno launcher in there custom mech so when their mech comes across vehicles, PBI, and armored infantry that the mech can wipe them out with one shot.




Well, there's at least one drawback if you're using inferno rounds: rolls on the inferno ammo explosion table to make sure your highly flammable inferno ammo does not cook off spontaneously.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables#Inferno_Ammo_Explosion_Table


Of course it's only a guess but IMVHO your average, brute force, full alpha, energy weapons loving munchkin would not really want any additional rolls on the inferno ammo explosion table while trying to keep his Mech from shutting down from extreme heat, probably that's why you'll rarely (if ever) see custom munch Mechs with a single SRM2 plus inferno ammo with the rest of the equipment being max armor, energy weapons and usually barely enough heatsinks to prevent an instant automatic shutdown due to extremely high heat after an almost full alpha strike.


By the way, if you bother to check my Javelin RetroTech variant (6x SRM2, 2 tons ammo (ammo mix (e.g. one ton inferno, one ton standard) possible)) with your mechdesign program you might notice that it would only overheat moderately - going full alpha while jumping max distance is possible and would only generate 8 points of heat, so no saving roll on the inferno ammo explosion heat table required.



Have a nice day / night.
Karagin
05/29/12 11:42 AM
72.178.85.122

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Noting that in my quote I also said to check the rules aka the official rule books so as to get the up to date rules. I can sit here all day and post the home rules I have used for fire and how they can hurt things in BT, but the official rules have a nice set of tables and such that give you the needed info.

Also the power games stay away from these things cause they take time to work on mechs, and most power gamers can't fight with vehicles. You never see the munchkins building uber vehicles. They stick to the mechs because the mechs allow them all the loops holes to win.

Go to a convention and watch how these types of players act and react when they are forced to use mechs that don't give them all the cool toys.

Fire can be a friend and an enemy in BT.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
05/29/12 08:04 PM
173.168.112.109

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Quote:

I was giving my opinion that the official fire rules should be looked at for revisement so that one shot from a inferno warhead does not destroy a vehicle in only one shot bypassing all armor and destroying the vehicle.




Infernos don't do that anymore. Total Warfare changed Inferno rules from insta-death to treating Infernos as an armor piercing attack with a chance for a critical hit.

BattleTech Master Rules, which said (pg142):

Vehicles hit by an inferno attack must
roll 2D6 in the Heat Phase of each of the 3
turns during which the fluid is burning. On a
result of 8 or higher, the vehicle remains
operational; any lower result means the vehicle
is destroyed.

Total Warfare (pg142 also, coincidentally):

Vehicles: Every missile that strikes the target automatically
causes a roll on the appropriate column of the appropriate unit’s
Critical Hits Table, corresponding to the location hit (see Ground
Combat Vehicle Critical Hit Eff ects, p. 193), with the following modifi
ers to the dice roll result: –2 for Combat Vehicles; no modifi er
for Support Vehicles (unless the Support Vehicle has the Armor
Chassis and Controls modifi cation and a BAR of 10, in which case
it is treated as a Combat Vehicle).

So, in summary:

The old way had infernos kill a vehicle on a 2d6 roll 7 or less (with 3 rolls per missile), while now they're just a chance (not guaranteed) of a critical hit.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
scheinlen
05/29/12 09:59 PM
204.111.95.206

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NIce, now this is some GOOD info...
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/30/12 04:20 PM
99.202.120.32

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Quote:

Infernos don't do that anymore. Total Warfare changed Inferno rules from insta-death to treating Infernos as an armor piercing attack with a chance for a critical hit.




I still dont have the game book Total Warfare. So I was unaware of the updated rules.

Quote:

BattleTech Master Rules, which said (pg142):

Vehicles hit by an inferno attack must
roll 2D6 in the Heat Phase of each of the 3
turns during which the fluid is burning. On a
result of 8 or higher, the vehicle remains
operational; any lower result means the vehicle
is destroyed.

Total Warfare (pg142 also, coincidentally):

Vehicles: Every missile that strikes the target automatically
causes a roll on the appropriate column of the appropriate unit’s
Critical Hits Table, corresponding to the location hit (see Ground
Combat Vehicle Critical Hit Eff ects, p. 193), with the following modifi
ers to the dice roll result: –2 for Combat Vehicles; no modifi er
for Support Vehicles (unless the Support Vehicle has the Armor
Chassis and Controls modifi cation and a BAR of 10, in which case
it is treated as a Combat Vehicle).

So, in summary:

The old way had infernos kill a vehicle on a 2d6 roll 7 or less (with 3 rolls per missile), while now they're just a chance (not guaranteed) of a critical hit.




The old way it does not matter how any missiles hit you just roll once per turn for three turns from the last missile that hit. Now you roll for each and every missile or is it just one roll per turn on matter how many missiles hit?

At the moment I don't have access to a crit chart to see if the new system is better or worse than the old system. If I remember correctly if you roll a 7+ you get a crit that would make it a roll of a 9+ and some crits are not auto destroy results. If what I remember is correct that makes things a little better.

I would think that VTOLs would be immune to inferno weapons and fire do to the down wash of there blades pushing the flames away from the haul.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
NeverSayNever
05/30/12 05:35 PM
78.51.144.88

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Quote:

[...]I would think that VTOLs would be immune to inferno weapons and fire do to the down wash of there blades pushing the flames away from the haul.





What happens if you increase / improve the airflow / oxygenflow for e.g. a Bunsenburner? - The flame should burn 'better' / hotter, correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunsen_burner


Or how about a gas turbine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_turbine



Now what could / should happen if a huge fan / rotor from a VTOL provides burning inferno gel sticking to the VTOL (either the cabin or the rotor blades, or both) with enough oxygen to burn at maximum efficiency? - How about optimized combustion at extremely high temperatures?


Just some food for thought ...


Have a nice day / night.
NeverSayNever
05/30/12 06:10 PM
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New and or improved inferno rules from "Total Warfare", or the older ones from the "BattleTech Master Rules", revisited edition or not, aside - how about the rules from the BattleTech box set, IMVHO probably still by far the most commonly available (most used as well?) set of (inferno) rules? Have these rules been changed / updated for the current edition of the box set?


[Anyone around willing to take a closer look at the inferno rules from the current BT box set and or quote the section from the rules booklet for ease of reference?]


I mean not everyone who plays BattleTech casually necessarily plays by / uses the rules published in "Total Warfare" or the "BattleTech Master Rules", well at least not at the local "beer and bretzels" style gaming group I use(d) [lack of time - and lack of people to play with, sigh] to play with, and yes, I know, of course once you leave the relaxed atmosphere of your local gaming group and enter the realms of more competitive gameplay, tournaments, clubs, leagues, whatever - innocence (= playing just for fun and relaxation) is lost and the more advanced and more serious rules(lawyering) may start ...



Have a nice day / night.
CrayModerator
05/30/12 07:56 PM
173.168.112.109

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Quote:

The old way it does not matter how any missiles hit you just roll once per turn for three turns from the last missile that hit. Now you roll for each and every missile or is it just one roll per turn on matter how many missiles hit?




OLD WAY:

Turn 1: Roll 2d6. 7 or less: die. 8 or more: nothing.
Turn 2: Roll 2d6. 7 or less: die. 8 or more: nothing.
Turn 3: Roll 2d6. 7 or less: die. 8 or more: nothing.

3-turn Survival Chance: 7.24% from one Inferno missile

NEW WAY:

Each Inferno Missile: Roll ONCE on crit chart at -2. On a 2-5 (i.e., a roll of 7 or less thanks to that -2 modifier), nothing happens. For results of 6 to 10 (i.e., rolls of 8 to 12), depending on the location of the vehicle hit, you can get:
**Driver Hit
**Weapon Malfunction
**Stabilizer
**Sensors
**Commander Hit
**Cargo/Infantry Hit
**Crew Stunned
**Weapon Destroyed
**Engine Hit

Thanks to the -2 modifier, you can never get the crit results Crew Killed, Fuel Tank, Ammunition, or Turret Blown Off results.

In the way, there's a 58.3% chance of no crits, and 100% chance of vehicle survival.

Compare that to the old way's 7.24% chance of survival.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
scheinlen
05/30/12 09:43 PM
204.111.104.96

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only thing I dislike is if the mech had several small SRM lanchers, then it has multi Ammo bin. Unless you can chain more then one launcher to a single ammo case.
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
Karagin
05/30/12 09:57 PM
64.134.124.227

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Uhm you can build it with 3 SRM launchers and one single ton of ammo. Nothing in the rules says you have to have a ton of ammo per launcher.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
05/31/12 11:46 AM
147.160.136.10

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Quote:

only thing I dislike is if the mech had several small SRM lanchers, then it has multi Ammo bin. Unless you can chain more then one launcher to a single ammo case.




Karagin hit the nail on the head. Multiple weapons can feed from single ammo bins.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
scheinlen
05/31/12 04:33 PM
204.111.92.177

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The Piranha was developed by Clan Diamond Shark is a mech that I dont understand being from the Clans. It seems to be more for ANTI-Civilians and for a phyco that just wants to kill people then for fighting another mech with clan honor...
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
CrayModerator
05/31/12 06:58 PM
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Quote:

The Piranha was developed by Clan Diamond Shark is a mech that I dont understand being from the Clans. It seems to be more for ANTI-Civilians and for a phyco that just wants to kill people then for fighting another mech with clan honor...




The Piranha fits Clan honor perfectly. Clan honor says Clan civilians OBEY. It is perfectly honorable for Clan warriors to sterilize or exterminate entire civilian populations if those civilians were restless. Clan Wolverine's civilians were exterminated, preserving the honor of the other Clans. Clan Jade Falcon thoroughly purged its own cantankerous civilians in the 2800s, re-establishing its honor.

When Clan Smoke Jaguar bombarded several million freshly conquered civilians in the Draconis Combine, no other Clan questioned Smoke Jaguar's right to do so, or the other honor of the action. Lots of Clans snickered at Smoke Jaguar for over-reacting to some petty civilians, but they didn't think the action was dishonorable. Within a year of Turtle Bay, Clan Ghost Bear threatened to bombard every city in its invasion corridor and kill tens of billions of people.

Slaughtering civilians, depending on the circumstances, is quite acceptable within the scope of Clan honor.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/31/12 08:14 PM
99.202.159.111

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Civilians are not people there things that only exist for the warriors to exploit so that they can act like the true barbarians that they are. Its not like that anyone in the Inner Sphere is all that much better than the Clans.

I guess the reason I like the Federated Suns is that they seem to act the least barbaric of the Inner Sphere great houses, at least to me that is.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
05/31/12 09:55 PM
64.134.124.227

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Define civilians...because in combat you have only two types of people targets and those not shooting at you at that moment.

Not to hit a political debate, but no one worries about the other sides people and such when it is winning or doing all it can to hit back at the enemy. Only AFTER the fact or when things are so bleak does a nation cry "oh you bombed a city full of defenseless civilians" etc...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
scheinlen
05/31/12 10:19 PM
204.111.93.151

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Hell, the U.S. has been turned so "Liberal" when (as a soldier) get in trouble for killing enemy soldiers the wrong way... The GC has rules of warfare that determines if I am using the "Proper" HMG on the right targets.No 50 HMG on personnel, only on Equipment and vehicles..( Sorry, I shot the guys LBE not him.) Now, they have a new rule about using the wrong magizes in a M4 assault rifle. that rule just came out last week!

I got to agree HMRH Donkey, Fedcom is my prefered Great House, But, as a soldier for most of my adult life, I still dislike gunning down Civilians... I have been into to many countries around the world , were the majority of the population is just trying to survive and others are just trying to bully their way around,,,(U.S. goverment included.)
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
CrayModerator
06/01/12 10:09 AM
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FYI: You're all fine so far, but please keep rule 3 in mind when talking about real world issues.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
scheinlen
06/01/12 11:25 AM
204.111.95.250

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will do. thanks
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
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