cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165957 - 07/20/12 07:43 PM (173.78.137.15)
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katrar pretty much got on the nut. only other thing he didnt really touch on is tech diff from nev to CBT. you have pulse weapons. certain ammos, c-3 the list does go on. but as he has pointed out a 3-2 to 2-2 pilot is something they put in their novels and CBT fluff. also the terrain is way diff not soo much as neveron. and LOS is diff also. hand to hand combat dep on lvl 1-2-3 rules also has a few options we dont have in nev. but as katrar pointed it in CBT we dont have tard pilots any and all units can improve. well if they survive lol. but we also dont have on the norm anything bigger then a couple companies on a side. so the unit to unit ration fron nev to CBT is a big diff. ive played cbt now for i think 28-29yrs prob the best table top game ever made besdies my other sickness which is 40k and warhammer fantasy. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165958 - 07/20/12 09:18 PM (97.101.96.171)
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Quote:
Ok, regarding the skills/training system on Neveron...
That's a really good summary of CBT skill levels, Katrar.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165959 - 07/20/12 11:28 PM (70.173.10.66)
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Ok, unless they changed the rules, skills started at 8/8. Most players normally started at 4 gun/5 pilot, considered regular. Veteran was like 2/4 and elite less. Cbt only had one instance that I know of with a neg gunned person and that was in the black widows supplement where natash kerensky had -1.
Neg units WERE not authorized to my knowledge.
Now I do agree that 8/8 was crap and I do agree that they whould start off no worse then 5 gun/6 pilot. But that should be ALL units/soldiers. Problem with the xp for kills is the fake wars/raids that happen. I do think you should be able to train skills to get better to a point. The rep bonus needs to be revamped as well.
Now for the terrain. Needing a neg gunned unit is bs. Maybe sending in a few more units and having to risk them by actually needing to expose yourself to enemy fire is the issue there. Yes, this game does require you to run into hordes of units that you cannt retreat from if its an hd only zone. And with only a single battalion to fight with, it makes it difficult to fight 2 full regiments of units. If you want to cry about the terrain, the defender should recieve bonuses for fighting in a familiar zone, while an attaker should be penalized.
Cbt is based around competing forces, which are less mech then tanks/infantry. It is more fun to use mechs for everything, but in most battles, tanks are the main forces on each side, with mechs as back up. Alot of the supplements have 'your hero' unit (mechs) against a wide variety of units, and not all are mech or mech only. Bunkers as well as other forces are used. Hell, the MAC uses alot of bunker/tank/infantry as opposing forces to your players.
If you want mech on mech only, play robotech/macross.
On a side note, dropships have been known to land in contested zones to unload tanks, instead of being jump only units. And going with aerofighters will just make the game that much more complicated.
As for the tech difference, as it was suggested, ALL the tech 2 stuff should go, including guass rifles, the mrk 2's, and the like. Units that use them need to be removed, or changed to take the level 2 stuff out of them. Otherwise, throw in tanks like the alacorn, as well as other things like double heat sinks or even case.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165960 - 07/21/12 01:07 AM (24.17.137.174)
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@Daboss, yeah there are definitely tweaks to balance provided by (imo caused by lol) tech level. Neveron being fundamentally a tech level 1 game (excepting some of the DP stuff) should be designed to best support the tech level that serves as its basis.
@Cray, thanks.
@Ghostrider, *looks at Cray* Nope, better not.
From Tales of the Black Widow Company (1985)
Natasha Kerensky - 4/3 WHM-6R Warhammer
Colin McLaren - 4/3 MAD-3R Marauder
Lynn Sheridan - 5/4 CRD-3R Crusader
John Hayes - 4/3 GRF-1N Griffin
As the 90s progressed there was downward pressure towards elite skill levels. Guess what this did to the utility of light and medium mechs? It practically invalidated them. This was recognized by professional game designers and experienced playtesters and for the past decade emphasis on 5/4 has been pretty heavy. Neither FanPro nor Catalyst have been fans of heavy use of elite skill or below.
--------------------
HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
Edited by Katrar (07/21/12 02:51 AM)
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Toten
Sergeant
Reged: 03/18/08
Posts: 147
Loc: Australia
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165962 - 07/21/12 06:23 AM (118.208.152.217)
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Colour (yes we speak english) me blue. WTF are you going on about SM?
Perhaps we can discuss D & D ? God bless
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To secure peace is to prepare for war.
Edited by Toten (07/21/12 06:27 AM)
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Toten]
#165963 - 07/21/12 09:32 AM (70.173.10.66)
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I remember one of the battle tech supplementals having the scenario of dest hitting the wolf dragoons and natasha was fighting one of the dest warriors, and thought it showed her skills as 0(-1) for gunnery. Then that was after they had started using the mechwarrior skills, so wouldnt suprise me if they discarded it due to making a completely unbalanced system. Might have been when she faught the jade falcons in the war of refusal. Hmmm..
Anyways, this does bring out the fact that NO one should have neg skills, no matter what excuse people want to use. Been saying that for a long while.
Now if someone would show sm the actually maps used in the board game, he would understand that nevs terrain isnt even close to it. Very few of them are that extreme.
And katrar. Yours isnt the only opinion in the world, and not everyone agrees with it, dispite what you might think. They do tend to be well presented.
Your own conclusion here supports the fact negged units unbalance the game and always have.
Hey, maybe not having a monster army might mean you will get more action as people dont have to waste billions on a simple raid.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165964 - 07/21/12 03:27 PM (24.17.137.174)
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Ghostrider, thanks for letting me know that mine isn't the only opinion in the world. For 37 years I've been operating under the assumption that it was, and wow, I mean... that was a reality shattering revelation. This changes everything.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165965 - 07/21/12 07:00 PM (173.78.137.15)
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pretty simple fix on maps would be use the heavy gear pro map maker for CBT. then he could maybe scan the map and convert it to gif files? dont know jack about coding. maybe even mega mechs map maker? l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: cbtgod]
#165966 - 07/21/12 11:07 PM (70.173.10.66)
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The terrain of nev's biggest problem that i have seen is the extreme range it runs from. I have no problems with a zone with a majority of forest in it, but having altitude run from level 1 to level 10 in side by side hexes is an big issue.
Yes a forest only map means only mechs can be used there.
Altitude should not vary more then maybe 3 levels next to each other. And even this should be limited.
Now adding roads would releave pressure on terrain that is horrible, but would require too much in the way of coding at this time. Once sm learns to code better, it may be a good way to go.
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165967 - 07/22/12 12:08 AM (50.137.208.91)
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Quote:
Once sm learns to code
LOL
you said sm and code.
and kato, my opinion is the only one that matters, though you are entitled to your own 
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#165968 - 07/23/12 02:28 AM (193.144.201.40)
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My view comparing nev with cbt.
katrar si right about terrain, best terrain on cbt is something like "completelly flat" with "some woods".
Cbt worst terrain possible is something like "some hills" with "some woods" anything worse that that should be removed if you want to stay on cbt standards.
the problem why neveron will never (at least now as it is now) be as cbt is that cbt battles are "perfectly" balanced, I mean, any "bought" campaign or battles modules, has been carefully playtested and balanced, and any game built by players "tend" to be balanced too, youmight be wrong, of course, but when building the army you tend to asign certain tons and certain amount of light/medium/heavy/assault mechs.
In my playing group we even sometimes re-arrange the mechs when we see what each oof us took.
But thats not possible in neveron, in neveron you allways try to bring the best possible,, and considering the "costs of lossing" you can't blame anyone for that. I think neveron is the only game out there that "punish" the looser in terms of:
- If you losse a war you are going to be at least one month working one hour a day for rebuilding your empire.
- if you losse a war you wont be able to engage again in another in probably about 2 months.
- If you losse a war you are going to depend on your mates for defending you when the surrender period ends because your empire will not be war ready.
thats completelly insane for the survival of any MMO.
Yesterday I was playing a online card game online and I losse a match, ¿what happened? absolutelly nothing,ok, I didn't won my reward, but didn't losse anything either, so i just joined another.
I'm not saying that neveron should be as simple as that but thi is just insane.
If you ask me ¿how to solve this? LoL!! you can't!! nev is like it is, and re-making it would take ages, so... don't dream with neveron getting anything close to cbt ever.
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Hythos
Sergeant
Reged: 05/09/10
Posts: 148
Loc: USA
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165969 - 07/24/12 10:36 AM (137.78.94.42)
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Quote:
... Anyways, this does bring out the fact that NO one should have neg skills, no matter what excuse people want to use. Been saying that for a long while.
I would have to argue, but only when related to Mechwarrior where we know there can be - because the neg value is simply a composite of Attributes and Skills (just as a THAC0 of 1 is also possible). We know that skills can be increased - which proportionately decreases Gunnery Skill value (and the composite rating into negative.) Through enough encounters, -1 and greater (lower) should indeed be possible.
How this relates to Neveron:
Nev IS an MMO, in the sense that we have an "Emperor" and Pilots (characters) that can improve their stats/skills, and that we have long-term, continuing events / actions / decisions that change the outcome of our Empires.
Nev is NOT an RPG, by terms of NOT having individual personnel/characters able to make "decisions".
Therefore, Nev really is just a simulation, and nothing to do with RPG's - which should then safely and effectively eliminate the "Neg gunners" that run rampant....
and being just a simulation - the remaining arguments become valid: Why should it take so f'n long to recover from a war-loss, to build up to a point where one can produce even the simplest of vehicles, and on and on.
But, because many of you guys had enjoyed the Nev of yester-year, where all of your efforts actually meant something - goes to show, that it should have been more than just a simple simulation to begin with... border-lining an RPG... where neg-gunnery values are valid.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Hythos]
#165970 - 07/24/12 03:03 PM (24.17.137.174)
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You're partly right, Hythos. In the Mechwarrior RPG (and now Time of War) it is possible to go into negative skills, but only in non combat skills. `Mech combat skills have had a hard floor of 0 since Mechwarrior 2nd edition in the 80s. Note that I'm talking about base skills, it's still possible to end up with negative gun through the use of targeting computers, pulse, target a shutdown mech, etc.
One of the reasons for this hard floor is that CBT doesn't natively support BV calculations below 0.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165972 - 07/25/12 06:48 AM (173.78.137.15)
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in my group we have some neg gunners due to tech and ammo. we also came up with some weapon spec like mechcommander had. then again this was talked about and worked out to be fair. it wasnt codefist crammed down my throat. and my units didnt have handcuffs put on them. ive never seen any skill lower then 3-2 in a commando run tourney. then again in a tourney you may have a 3-2 but be in a locust lol. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Hythos
Sergeant
Reged: 05/09/10
Posts: 148
Loc: USA
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: cbtgod]
#165973 - 07/25/12 09:28 AM (137.78.94.42)
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"Realism" aside, we know that a few variations of modifiers would logically create a scenario of 'godly' hits with otherwise impossible shots...
IE, pushing your own unit to ~80%+ movement while attempting to fire a salvo of missiles between two groves of light woods at 600m towards a target moving ~60kph... ((8+2+2+2)-gun_skill)...
The chance to hit seems quite unlikely (logically), and is properly represented with the modifiers, giving a GOOD pilot a 1:36 chance to hit. Even an EXCELLENT pilot would have between a 1:12 and 7:36 chance (again, according to conventional CBT).
Realistically, it's probably NOT gonna work, but a few missles out of a 20-pack might get through (as increased odds per hit).
Now, conversely, with reasonably clear LOS between tree-groves, these two units advancing straight towards one another would realisticaly have a significantly increased chance to strike, simply because of directional heading (no lateral movement to dodge the incomming missles.) Again, realistically, even a GREEN pilot could stand a decent chance, as the movement and woods modifiers would have nearly zero affect.
Direct fire weaponry, and more so, lasers, would be that much easier.....
Long story short... we'll just have to build the real things to test it out :P hahah
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Hythos]
#165977 - 07/26/12 10:06 AM (193.144.201.40)
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when talking about realism...
we are not talking about 2 firing a salvo of missiles between two groves of light woods at 600m towards a target moving ~60kph.
In neveron we are talking about some mech located deeply in a forest firing at another mech that is located at 600 meters behind a ridge where there is nothing other than heavy woods in between (although no high 2 hills in between so you can call that a "LoS" if you want...) while both of them are jumping like if they where doing break dancing and yet not being able to miss.
I'm wondering whan the targeted mech will say when see finds 20 missiles dodging trees and hitting him in the legs. would liek t see the face of the pilot when taking the hits.
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: rantamplan]
#165978 - 07/26/12 11:57 PM (70.173.10.66)
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Btech limits los to just 3 wood hexes, no matter if they are heavy or light if I remember right.
The example of the hills is correct if i know right as well.
I believe -6 is max gunnery for a skill 0 soldier that is using a targetting computer tied to a pulse laser firing on a non moble unit that isnt a building or hex. Buildings were set up to have a -4 for targeting them since they arent supposed to move at all, kinda like targetting a hex with anything but artillery.
As for the missles in the example, those would be used in robotech. Completely guided missles. Technically, there is no damage reduction for hitting trees using energy weapons, but it is easier to just say the shot doesnt hit.
Yes, mechwarrior did allow neg guns, but they also added in a few other things that werent really good for balance, such as natural aptitude for gunnery that allowed 3d6 to be rolled and the highest 2 used, or the 3d10 in the other versions.
I hated the when they had Phelan Kell be able to avoid Vlads shots without trying, in the fiction. Also allowing Phelan to hit without much of a problem. Just lead to more unbalanced bs.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165979 - 07/27/12 12:16 AM (24.17.137.174)
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Neg gun was only allowed normally for 1st edition. In 2nd edition it was illegal for IS but legal for Clanners, down to -1 or -2, something like that. Then by 3rd edition it was simply illegal period. The rules have been very very hostile to negative anything combat related for about 15 or 16 years now.
--------------------
HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165980 - 07/27/12 08:25 AM (173.168.112.109)
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Quote:
Btech limits los to just 3 wood hexes, no matter if they are heavy or light if I remember right.
No, heavy woods (and the optional superheavy woods) cut off LOS a bit faster.
--------------------
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Torq
Newbie
Reged: 04/30/12
Posts: 17
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Hythos]
#165985 - 07/27/12 06:32 PM (209.89.155.247)
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Quote:
Long story short... we'll just have to build the real things to test it out :P hahah
My vote goes here.
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