Rules Question - Cluster Weapons & Crits

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VoxPotentia
02/19/13 05:56 PM
69.90.1.164

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Please excuse if this question sounds newbish, but when attacks with cluster weapons are made, do you roll crits for each damage group or for each shot individually (obviously we're talking srms and lrms here, since they group together)? Pouring through the books the only thing I can find about cluster weapons like srms and lrms grouping damage is for the purpose of of hit location, there's nothing about crit rolls.

My understanding is that if a single location got hit with 5 missiles, then there's a chance to crit for each of those missiles (assuming you hit IS with all of them of course).

My friends and I have been arguing about this for some while and some clarification on the subject would be appreciated. ^^
FrabbyModerator
02/19/13 06:05 PM
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It's one crit roll per cluster, not per missile.
SRMs hit in clusters of 1 missile each, so it doesn't make much of a difference here.
LRMs hit in clusters of 5 (or fraction thereof), so at best you can make 4 crit rolls from a LRM-20.
VoxPotentia
02/19/13 07:40 PM
184.162.65.45

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Thanks for the clarification ^^

Just one more thing, I suppose. Is there a page number where this is stated? I only ask because in my reading of the rules, there seems to be nothing to indicate that grouping has anything to do anything other than hit location. In fact there is mention that rolling cluster determines how many "individual shots" hit and that hit location become weapon specific (as in grouping for srm/lrm, but not on lb-10-x). This may just be flavourful language though, and not meant as "rules speak".

While I agree that the rule works the way you say (otherwise it would be pretty OP), common sense and rules-as-written don't seem to agree. I might just be blind, but I've looked and looked and I just can't find anything in the text that says this is the way it is.
Col_Green
02/19/13 09:37 PM
99.9.128.106

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Don't remeber pg number off hand but if yoru group can get hold of teh new rule books it's in Tact ops..I think might be Stragtic Ops..can't remeber...tooo many RULES!
Karagin
02/19/13 09:57 PM
72.178.85.122

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Wait hold on, the only way to get a critical hit is IF the armor is breached and the damage actually transfers into the internal structure of the mech or vehicle etc...

You are describing how the damage is broken down and that too is wrong.

SRMs do 2 points of damage per missile that hit, so if 6 missiles hit then 12 points of damage (6 x 2 = 12) are applied by rolling on the to hit table broken in to 6 rolls.

LRMs are 1 point of damage per missile, grouping the total damage in points of 5 depending on how many missiles hit. So if all 20 hit, the 20 points of damage.

Anyone want to buy a cat???

IF the damage goes internal then you get a CHANCE of critical hit, you have to roll 8 or greater on two dice gets you the chance. 8-9 gets you one chance at a crit. 10-11 gets you two chances and if you roll box cars or 12s you get three chances. Then you roll two dice, one tells you which part of the area is getting the crit and second tells you which slot or critical is actually damaged.

Damage alone from weapons don't cause critical hits unless they go through the armor by removing the outer layer or you happen to roll a 2 for location and then that gives you the magical BB or golden round or what ever your group wants to call it, the one chance to hit the weak spot in the armor and it's random so not an easy thing to get.

Unless they have totaled FUBARed the rules this has been how things have worked for some time.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
VoxPotentia
02/20/13 10:17 AM
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@ Karagin: I understand that a single attack can cause multiple crits (or no crits just over half the time), that isn't what I'm asking.
The book states that when you attack with a cluster weapon, the sequence is as followed:

1. Attack roll to determine if you hit
2. Cluster roll to determine how many missiles hit
3. Divide into groupings based on weapon (groups of 5 for LRM and groups of 2 for SRM)
4. Roll a hit location for each group.
5. If damage to IS is done, roll crit (which nets you between 0-3 crits)

The fuzzty part is: Is the group of 5 missiles considered a single attack for the purpose of rolling chance-to-crit, or is each individual missile it's own "shot", so to speak. I understand this would be pretty OP, a potential 60 crits off an LRM20 is obscene, but I can't find anything to contradict that in the book.

The text states that unless otherwise noted, each individual shot is rolled for seperately, but this is ONLY stated for hit location, NOT crits. There is nothing about cluster weapons only criting "per group" instead of "per missile". This also means that getting hit by a single missile or 5 missiles has the same chance to crit something (admitedly, 5 missiles do more damage and thus can still crit if the target had 40 points of armor).

This game has so many rules and they aren't always written clearly, this is just one of those spots that seems obvious to everyone, but I'm just not seeing it I think. Did I miss something about only a single crit being rolled per "hit location"?
CrayModerator
02/20/13 02:41 PM
97.101.96.171

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Quote:

The fuzzty part is: Is the group of 5 missiles considered a single attack for the purpose of rolling chance-to-crit




Yes, it is a single attack for crit purposes. This makes LBX cluster rounds and SRMs excellent "crit finders," because their damage is in small (1 and 2pt) groups, respectively.

Quote:

The text states that unless otherwise noted, each individual shot is rolled for seperately, but this is ONLY stated for hit location, NOT crits.




Because by the time you get to the critical rules, it's assumed (for better or worse) that it is understood each cluster of munitions is considered one attack. That way you don't have to litter the rules with clunky wording like "attacks (including clusters)", and can just say, "attack." This can cause confusion of its own, of course.

However, an example in Total Warfare is hidden before Critical Damage in the Transferring Damage section, pg123 (Third Printing). Under Transferring damage, a lengthy example is provided of a 'Mech getting shot to ****, including by cluster weapons:

"The remaining 1 point of damage from the first cluster
of missiles transfers to the ’Mech’s internal structure, and
so the player fills in one circle on the Internal Structure
Diagram, leaving ten circles out of the original eleven. The
last group of missiles reduces the internal structure by
another 5 points. The player fills in five more circles on the
Internal Structure Diagram, leaving five. (The attacking
player would make two rolls on the Determining Critical
Hits table, p. 124, because two different hits damaged the
internal structure of the left arm.)"

Notice: 2 clusters of 6 LRMs caused 2 critical hit rolls - not 6.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
VoxPotentia
02/20/13 05:21 PM
69.90.1.164

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Awesome! This is what I was looking for, thanks a bunch!! I hate it when books assume things like this, and who buries a confirmation of an assumed rule in the examples anyways? Yeesh. Anyways, I found the example in my book, it'll help solve this debate. Thanks again!!
CrayModerator
02/20/13 08:01 PM
97.101.96.171

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You can take your concerns to http://bg.battletech.com/forums/ . Those have official forums for rules questions. The correct one would be here:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/board,42.0.html

If there isn't an official clarification already, this might merit an errata in the next printing of Total Warfare.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Col_Green
02/20/13 11:04 PM
99.9.128.106

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My group has been playing if for years..that if I hit with a LRM20 and in the missle to hit chart I roll a 9 which is 16 missles...that would make it 4 attacks...5 points first shot which if it hit IS I get the chance on a 8+ that it crits..then the next group which is 5 points for a total of 10 points and I hit IS again even in a differant location I still get the 8+ chance for crits and so forth....it stacks up...IMHO if you look at the Annihilator mech with the LB10 X's with all cluster rounds which is why it's the FIRST mech to be takin out...because in cluster shot LBX is the only weapon where if you shot a LBX and roll on the missle chart for how BB's hit you get to roll EACH BB seperatly that is why that mech is know as the head hunter.....think about it lets say all 4 LBX 10 hits an dyou actually hit 40 that is 40 rolls to hit a location...and all you need is 5/6 head shots to land and the PILOT is either so personally damaged he can't fight ot he dies from feedback....not to mention that mech can survive with a STD engine....and why all of teh better mech units has 1 or 2 in each of it's assult lances...mostly.
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