Molecular Beam

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ATN082268
09/17/13 03:43 AM
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Molecular Beam (MB)

Game Statistics:

Technology Base: Clan
Tonnage: 10
Critical: 4
Heat: 25
Damage: 5 (special- see below)
Range: Short: 1-6/ Medium: 7-14/ Long:15-20
Cost: 500,000 C-Bills
Battle Value (BV): 600

Game Notes:

The Molecular Beam (MB) is an energy weapon and follows all rules from Total Warfare unless otherwise noted. Except for Laser Reflective, Hardened and Capital Scale Armor, shots from a MB completely ignore armor and their effects. Against Laser Reflective, Hardened and Capital Scale Armor, the shot does full damage against the armor and ignores any other effects of the armor but does not automatically penetrate to the internal structure like normal.
Shadrak
09/17/13 05:06 PM
174.255.83.142

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I am assuming this is like a weaponized maser where the beam inflicts internal radiation/emp damage to the target?

I like it, but I have the following suggestions:

Suggestion 1: Instead of Clan, make in Inner Sphere...this seems like a less than honorable way to do battle...not as "clannish" as I would think. Also, I think the Inner Sphere would be more likely to adopt a less conventional weapon system (masers are entirely new as weapons in BT, and Clans tend to just put out the same stuff that is more pragmatic than experimental). Of course, since I play Inner Sphere forces, I might be skewed in favor of IS over Clan for my own reasons. If it were Clan-tech I would put it in the hands of a more progressive, less honor bound Clan like Diamond Shark, Wolf in Exile, etc.

Suggestion 2: I also recommend adding some fluff text to give players a better understanding of the scientific theory behind the weapon system. Something that describes what a maser is, how it works, how it works on a piece of equipment, etc.

For example, the mazer might not do significant physical damage to the equipment, but it might do radiation damage that destroys the internal computers and any connection to the 'mech/vehicle control systems, rendering the equipment non-operational. An engine hit by a mazer is not destroyed, but it is effectively disconnected from the 'mech. ICE engines and ammo explode because they are subject to massive doses of microwave radiation...head hits/cockpit hits result in a pilot being microwaved to a crisp...Battle Armor hit suffers major damage to the electronic systems, but the armor remains relatively intact while the trooper inside is scrambled...oh...and what effect would a maser have on myomer? The synthetics probably would weaken and deteriorate, and this is where you would get most of your internal damage that is caused directly by the maser, right?

Suggestion 3: I recommend making a large Molecular Beam (if it is a Maser, I would call it a maser for short) and a smaller Molecular Beam with significantly less damage, range, and chance to create a critical hit and then talk about how the smaller beam (say 3 tons 3 crits) taxes the limits of current technology and virtually all war machines are immune to the effects of radiation from any maser that is smaller (smallest maser being something like 3 tons, 3 crits, range of 1-2/3-5/6-8.

Let me know if I am not understanding the weapon system.
ghostrider
09/17/13 11:18 PM
66.74.188.151

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This is really not a good ideal, unless the game is that far gone.
This sounds very much like a magic weapon. Then again,if the game has the armors listed, I guess I will not get any of the new books.

I would guess the next step is energy sheilds and other things like it. Might be better to play tog (terran overlord government) or something else.

If this isnt a joke, it would need more info to comprehend the weapon.
Does it by pass all metal or just select metals?
Does it affect living tissue?
Why would it affect items behind the armor?
Is this a transporter/teleporter beam that pops inside to only due internal damage?
ATN082268
09/18/13 03:21 AM
69.128.58.222

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Quote:
This is really not a good ideal, unless the game is that far gone.
This sounds very much like a magic weapon. Then again,if the game has the armors listed, I guess I will not get any of the new books.

I would guess the next step is energy sheilds and other things like it. Might be better to play tog (terran overlord government) or something else.

If this isnt a joke, it would need more info to comprehend the weapon.
Does it by pass all metal or just select metals?
Does it affect living tissue?
Why would it affect items behind the armor?
Is this a transporter/teleporter beam that pops inside to only due internal damage?



The Molecular Beam (MB) doesn't magically transport through armor. The MB is so intense that the damage goes straight through the armor to the internal structure. Some armors are dense or resistant enough to the energy beam that the damage is applied to the armor instead of the internal structure.

If it makes it easier to visualize, I don't have a problem with it also doing a point to the external armor before inflicting five points of damage to the internal structure of the target (or six points to the exterior for Laser Reflective, Hardened or Capital Scale Armor).
ATN082268
09/18/13 03:24 AM
69.128.58.222

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Quote:
I am assuming this is like a weaponized maser where the beam inflicts internal radiation/emp damage to the target?

I like it, but I have the following suggestions:

Suggestion 1: Instead of Clan, make in Inner Sphere...this seems like a less than honorable way to do battle...not as "clannish" as I would think. Also, I think the Inner Sphere would be more likely to adopt a less conventional weapon system (masers are entirely new as weapons in BT, and Clans tend to just put out the same stuff that is more pragmatic than experimental). Of course, since I play Inner Sphere forces, I might be skewed in favor of IS over Clan for my own reasons. If it were Clan-tech I would put it in the hands of a more progressive, less honor bound Clan like Diamond Shark, Wolf in Exile, etc.

Suggestion 2: I also recommend adding some fluff text to give players a better understanding of the scientific theory behind the weapon system. Something that describes what a maser is, how it works, how it works on a piece of equipment, etc.

For example, the mazer might not do significant physical damage to the equipment, but it might do radiation damage that destroys the internal computers and any connection to the 'mech/vehicle control systems, rendering the equipment non-operational. An engine hit by a mazer is not destroyed, but it is effectively disconnected from the 'mech. ICE engines and ammo explode because they are subject to massive doses of microwave radiation...head hits/cockpit hits result in a pilot being microwaved to a crisp...Battle Armor hit suffers major damage to the electronic systems, but the armor remains relatively intact while the trooper inside is scrambled...oh...and what effect would a maser have on myomer? The synthetics probably would weaken and deteriorate, and this is where you would get most of your internal damage that is caused directly by the maser, right?

Suggestion 3: I recommend making a large Molecular Beam (if it is a Maser, I would call it a maser for short) and a smaller Molecular Beam with significantly less damage, range, and chance to create a critical hit and then talk about how the smaller beam (say 3 tons 3 crits) taxes the limits of current technology and virtually all war machines are immune to the effects of radiation from any maser that is smaller (smallest maser being something like 3 tons, 3 crits, range of 1-2/3-5/6-8.

Let me know if I am not understanding the weapon system.




Thank you for your comments. I want to digest them before replying to them
Shadrak
09/18/13 11:05 AM
174.225.64.99

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Quote:
Quote:
This is really not a good ideal, unless the game is that far gone.
This sounds very much like a magic weapon. Then again,if the game has the armors listed, I guess I will not get any of the new books.

I would guess the next step is energy sheilds and other things like it. Might be better to play tog (terran overlord government) or something else.

If this isnt a joke, it would need more info to comprehend the weapon.
Does it by pass all metal or just select metals?
Does it affect living tissue?
Why would it affect items behind the armor?
Is this a transporter/teleporter beam that pops inside to only due internal damage?



The Molecular Beam (MB) doesn't magically transport through armor. The MB is so intense that the damage goes straight through the armor to the internal structure. Some armors are dense or resistant enough to the energy beam that the damage is applied to the armor instead of the internal structure.

If it makes it easier to visualize, I don't have a problem with it also doing a point to the external armor before inflicting five points of damage to the internal structure of the target (or six points to the exterior for Laser Reflective, Hardened or Capital Scale Armor).



You could make it something that does a point of damage to the exterior just from general conversion of radiation to heat and do another 2 or 3 points to the internal structure, but, if I understand the physics of a maser correctly, the true damage is from heat and EMP, so you could produce a critical hit without even damaging the interior. Also, I suggested that the interior damage might be due to synthetic myomers deteriorating when exposed to the beam's radiation...I don't think metal structures would be damaged, but I am not a physicist.

If this is a maser-style weapons, players can envision it as a system like a laser that projects frequencies of radiation that are not in the visible spectrum of light, but are at the microwave level. This should result in a different effect on the target...instead of a laser burning through metal, it should be a microwave that "cooks" electronic components like an EMP and "cooks" organic substances like a microwave.

Because this weapon could change game balance (I will fry a mech's components and pilot and then collect the parts to repair me mech), you might want to say that getting to this level of radiation requires a huge power source and reduce the weight of the weapon system while adding something similar to a PPC capacitor so the weapon could only be fired every other turn and, if the weapon suffered a critical hit, the weapon explodes.

This should get you in line with most of the current advanced tech weapon systems in the game.
ghostrider
09/18/13 12:10 PM
66.74.188.151

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So a crit might be losing control of actuator/myomers, or scrambling electronics like sensors/targetting/tracking?
Maybe spike the engine heat/gyro glitch?
Maybe a 3 crit/limb blown off might result in a complete shutdown of the unit for so long?
Shadrak
09/18/13 01:05 PM
174.225.64.99

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Quote:
So a crit might be losing control of actuator/myomers, or scrambling electronics like sensors/targetting/tracking?
Maybe spike the engine heat/gyro glitch?
Maybe a 3 crit/limb blown off might result in a complete shutdown of the unit for so long?



Since it is not my weapon system and I am only assuming it is a maser (and I don't know much about maser theory), you could conceivably ignite fuel, explode ammo, and destroy electronics even if the system was shielded from normal radiation (part of the reason for research into masers in the 1970s to destroy ICBMs)...for the engine, you could probably "destroy" the engine by taking the computers that run the safety protocols offline...and the gyro's could be "destroyed" by burning out the computers and comm systems that keep the gyro operating properly. If you haven't picked it up, I would buy ($14 on RPG Drivethru) Techmanual...it discusses all the components of a Mech and why they work the way they work and has generally aligned most Mech processes and components with physics/theoretical physics. So now fusion engines don't explode (the vaccum can cause an explosion, though)...and the weight of a large fusion engine isn't due to the weight of the engine, but the weight of the internal heat sinks and magnetic containment chambers.
CrayModerator
09/18/13 05:29 PM
71.47.122.85

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Quote:
if I understand the physics of a maser correctly, the true damage is from heat and EMP



A maser hitting a metal structure will be halted in the conductive shell and produce some electricity as the microwaves get the free electrons in the metal jiggling. Resistance heating will result, too. The heat will damage the armor as usual, while the (in BT) well-grounded shell of a 'Mech will bleed off the dangerous electrical currents that aren't lost to electrical resistance. There's no special EMP. (In some items, like radio antennas, the microwave-induced currents can be more dangerous, but existing BT rules make 'Mechs generally immune to such things until the armor's gone.)

Basically, if the maser has to go through something very conductive like armor, it's not going through until it blows a hole in the target.

You'd be better off with x-ray lasers if you want an energy equivalent to armor piercing ammo. BT armor is thin, not nearly thick enough to halt a good dose of x-rays.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Shadrak
09/18/13 05:57 PM
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Isn't an xray laser considered a maser? I thought maser was the catch all for everything that was not an optical maser... Thanks for the info, though...

Also, is mech armor conductive? I thought it was a ceramic and metal composite. If it were a microwave maser, then the heat level of the mech would go up, right? Making it like an extended range flamer?

So is there a legit physics theory behind this that would allow it as an xray laser?
ghostrider
09/18/13 10:29 PM
66.74.188.151

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All combat armor is conductive. Otherwise ppcs would do alot more damage to a unit since its basically a lightning generator. Yes, there would be more problems with aim on something like that such as buildings near a target would be hit before the mech, since they would all be grounded.

As for things like an x-ray laser, maybe they avoid that with things like focus time, since in combat, you dont have minutes to use a weapon.

I really dislike the armor ineffective weapons. This basically nulifies the whole purpose of the game. Might as well use asteroids thrown from mass drivers to take out enemy bases, instead of sending in the ground troops. Yes, its extreme, but cheaper then losing millions on the units sent in.
Shadrak
09/19/13 08:13 AM
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Quote:
All combat armor is conductive. Otherwise ppcs would do alot more damage to a unit since its basically a lightning generator. Yes, there would be more problems with aim on something like that such as buildings near a target would be hit before the mech, since they would all be grounded.

As for things like an x-ray laser, maybe they avoid that with things like focus time, since in combat, you dont have minutes to use a weapon.

I really dislike the armor ineffective weapons. This basically nulifies the whole purpose of the game. Might as well use asteroids thrown from mass drivers to take out enemy bases, instead of sending in the ground troops. Yes, its extreme, but cheaper then losing millions on the units sent in.



I played with one team that had a house rule for armor-bleed-through...something like for every 10 damage to a hit location in a single round the target took 1 point of internal structure damage. And, if the target took internal structure damage in a single turn from bleed-through, the target would have to roll once on the critical hit table.

It tended to speed the game up and make you not feel like you were trying to sandblast armor off of your target before they would stop functioning.

The best game I think I have ever played that represented what I think is a more realistic approach to armor was Twilight 2000...
And Mechwarrior 3 was pretty good as well, but the rules are a little bulky.
CrayModerator
09/19/13 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Isn't an xray laser considered a maser? I thought maser was the catch all for everything that was not an optical maser...



Nope, masers are specific to coherent microwaves, aka high frequency radio waves.

Quote:
Also, is mech armor conductive? I thought it was a ceramic and metal composite.



It has an outer layer of highly electrically and thermally conductive steel, and inner layer of diamond fiber-reinforced boron nitride. See BT 2nd Edition, 3rd Edition, Classic BattleTech Companion, or (most recently) Tech Manual. Tech Manual makes a point of addressing the implications of electrical conductivity with an example of lightning strikes being mostly harmless to 'Mechs, just the way a car's shell keeps you safe in a lightning storm.

Quote:
If it were a microwave maser, then the heat level of the mech would go up, right?



The microwaves would be lost to stirring up electrical currents in the armor, so they wouldn't get inside the 'Mech to warm it. Once you blew holes in the armor, then the microwaves could start baking components - just like lasers, PPCs, and other energy weapons.

Quote:
So is there a legit physics theory behind this that would allow it as an xray laser?



Several. There are desktop x-ray lasers commercially available now.
http://www.xuvlasers.com/About.html
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Retry
10/16/13 07:48 PM
184.2.104.40

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It's a good way to finally seal the grave on Vees if that's what you are aiming for.
And fighters of all types, for that matter.
ATN082268
08/29/17 09:49 AM
69.128.58.222

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Quote:
It's a good way to finally seal the grave on Vees if that's what you are aiming for.
And fighters of all types, for that matter.



I apologize for not responding but I missed you reply at the time and, by luck, saw the thread recently being read by someone else. You do bring up a good point. The Molecular Beam is still affected by Reflective and Hardened armor and the weapon has very high heat and BV values, so it isn't as bad as it sounds. Still, may be something to tweak on the weapon...
ghostrider
08/29/17 11:22 AM
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Tweaks are always something that can be done. I just don't think in the original form presented, it would work for the game.
Though not really stated, I always thought mechs were set up to deal with intense radiations. They are dropped on worlds that would fry most things and function properly. Another issue is the length of time. Light amplification of stimulated emissions of radiation are stopped by the armor, with it being unable to 'burn' the inside without destroying the armor.

Granted the emp factor might be a good step in the direction of the tsemp.


Shadrak. I like the idea of the 10 points in one location being able to get an internal. Since the way they suggest weapons are, especially energy weapons, they focus on one spot. So having the plates destroyed, should mean the internals there should suffer. Is that from a single weapon? Or from multiple hits in the same area such as a pair of mls?
ATN082268
08/30/17 10:37 AM
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O.K. This is the first tweak of the weapon. I left the original as a reference point and will post the updated version below.


Molecular Beam (MB)

Game Statistics:

Technology Base: Clan
Tonnage: 10
Critical: 4
Heat: 25
Damage: 5 (special- see below)
Range: Short: 1-6/ Medium: 7-14/ Long:15-20
Cost: 500,000 C-Bills
Battle Value (BV): 600

Game Notes:

The Molecular Beam (MB) is an energy weapon and follows all rules from Total Warfare unless otherwise noted. Against Laser Reflective, Hardened and Capital Scale Armor, a shot from the MB does full damage against the armor and ignores any other effects of the armor but does not automatically penetrate to the internal structure. On all other types of armor the MB will inflict 1 point on the armor and 4 points on the internal structure with a chance for a critical hit at a penalty of -1 to the roll. Any hits to an unarmored location will do full damage to the internal structure with a roll for critical hits as normal.
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