Ultimate Combat unit

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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
06/23/13 09:47 AM
208.54.39.150

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http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159350/an/0/page/4#159350

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159351/an/0/page/4#159351

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159352/an/0/page/4#159352

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159344/an/0/page/4#159344

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159477/an/0/page/4#159477

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159479/an/0/page/4#159479

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159478/an/0/page/4#159478

All you would need is some resupply base somewhere on or near a small island. I would only see two problems first a source of food for all of the troops and second a source of repair parts. Because of the limited variety of weapons a great warehouse of stores of ammo is not required. This would work for some billionaire that decided that he does not want to be bothered by the local government, who ever they are this week. With a landing pad on the island for say a K-1 that can sneak in and off the planet for resupply I would say our billionaire would be quite save well that is until some trader sold him out. Of course one does not stab billionaires in the back with impunity.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ATN082268
06/23/13 11:36 AM
69.129.18.69

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Quote:

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159350/an/0/page/4#159350

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159351/an/0/page/4#159351

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159352/an/0/page/4#159352

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159344/an/0/page/4#159344

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159477/an/0/page/4#159477

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159479/an/0/page/4#159479

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/159478/an/0/page/4#159478

All you would need is some resupply base somewhere on or near a small island. I would only see two problems first a source of food for all of the troops and second a source of repair parts. Because of the limited variety of weapons a great warehouse of stores of ammo is not required. This would work for some billionaire that decided that he does not want to be bothered by the local government, who ever they are this week. With a landing pad on the island for say a K-1 that can sneak in and off the planet for resupply I would say our billionaire would be quite save well that is until some trader sold him out. Of course one does not stab billionaires in the back with impunity.




Unless of course you need stuff like Artillery support, Air support, conduct land operations, etc. etc.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
06/23/13 11:47 AM
208.54.39.150

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This is defensive not offensive.

I cant imagine the logistic nightmare it would be to pack that up into a dropship transported to another planet then unloaded it. I think having someone hitting my hand with a 20lb sledgehammer, repeatably, would be far more pleasant.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/06/14 07:44 AM
172.56.31.63

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bump
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Retry
01/06/14 01:30 PM
67.239.109.174

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I can't imagine anyone that would willingly join this unit.
Many of them have so little armor and no HarJel. They may be fast but their punch isn't capable of taking on larger vehicles with HarJel, which could make mincemeat out of lances at a time easily.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/06/14 05:39 PM
172.56.31.219

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Its not Clan tech the Inter Sphere does not have HarJer. You throw HarJar around as if you can find it at the local connivance store and not that its extremely rare even for the Clans.

I dont use advance tech for the sake of having it. Everything I design has to do with function and one of the things that I watch is the cost. Other than the super subs, which there are very few of them, nothing costs all that much per unit. In Battertech I believe in quantity of units over quality of units. That does not mean I dont have powerful units. I hold my powerful units back as my reserve and I throw massive numbers of light units to try to overwhelm my enemy. The other advantage to having large numbers of small light units is I can protect more areas and hold my enemy down until I can get some reserves into the fight.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Retry
01/06/14 07:18 PM
67.239.109.174

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Harjel is about as necessary for the survival of naval combat units as the hoverskirt is
No Harjel, especially on big units, means no survivability. No survivability means you won't find many willing volunteers for your navy, especially not good ones, and the good pilots you do have will have a larger fatality rate than WWII bombers without cover.

Technology may be rare, and life may be cheap, but good pilots is still of great value.

One can purchase it from clan Diamond Shark. If that isn't an option raiding always is. Otherwise you only own a toy navy operated by toy soldiers... Especially for your 300 ton designs. There is no real excuse, for the 20 or so people that have to man those it's a deathtrap once anything pops up that can hit it. For one HarJel-equipped mech, you can have about 2 harjel vehicles.
Karagin
01/06/14 08:18 PM
24.243.178.124

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Interesting take on things, we have some folks who have to play with the cool toys cause well they are better and others who mix things up, and some who go for a more practical set ways to use both worlds. Good thing the game isn't about one single style of play.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
01/06/14 08:32 PM
67.239.109.174

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Most of my forces are 25% of these super high tech gadgets, and 75% of the standard IS tech stuff. For any 4 of my Quakenbush mechs that no one commented on I wield at a time, there is only 1 or 2 XL engine Chargers or Mirages.
ghostrider
01/06/14 11:17 PM
66.74.101.135

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does harjel mean invulnerable? I mean you can still breach a second time and destroy the unit? or does it reseal everytime the unit goes internal? Yes, it is showing my reluctance to read the new books, even if they are online. To my knowledge it was a one shot item. It doesn't magically harden to indestructible. If it does, why not just build the units out of it and forget armor all together?

It has its uses like help a unit not sink. That unit should be running from the battle after it takes a shot that activates it if possible. That should apply to any unit that does take that sort of damage.
Retry
01/06/14 11:24 PM
67.239.109.174

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It prevents breaching rolls from even being made, period. That is, unless the HarJel in question takes a critical hit.

It can't be used as makeshift armor because it is, for one, rare, and it need armor to be stored within without hardening.
Karagin
01/06/14 11:33 PM
24.243.178.124

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I have to agree with Ghostrider...the idea that the Harjel prevents the ship from having to deal with breach hits unbalaneces the game and makes it the must have for ALL units.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
01/06/14 11:37 PM
67.239.109.174

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All units don't operate in the sea...

"This allows a 'Mech equipped with such a system (like the Aquagladius) to operate underwater without fearing a hull breach, as long as armor is still present."

This applies to subs and stuff with HarJel.

I'd argue the existance of breach rolls in the first place unbalances the game and is one of the biggest reasons that no one uses naval assets in their games.


Edited by Retry (01/06/14 11:39 PM)
Karagin
01/06/14 11:56 PM
24.243.178.124

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I disagree most don't use naval sea units cause they don't want to play naval sea battles, they want to play mech on mech with vehicles tossed in for the fun.

Naval (sea) ships adds another layer to the game and to some it's not what they want, the rules don't prevent folks form using the craft, it is what they bring or don't bring for the players. Most consider them to be NPC style units, they look cool, they are great in the novels and the fluff is great but they just aren't a lot of fun to play.

Same with underwater combat, the fun wears off very fast and having played several battles, to include two different fights at UCON at Ann Arbor Michigan, I can say that by turn 6 the game had lost my interest and the pace was slow and not fun. But again each to their own.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/07/14 12:18 AM
172.56.31.219

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Quote:
Harjel is about as necessary for the survival of naval combat units as the hoverskirt is
No Harjel, especially on big units, means no survivability. No survivability means you won't find many willing volunteers for your navy, especially not good ones, and the good pilots you do have will have a larger fatality rate than WWII bombers without cover.



First people of the Inter Sphere dont have access to HarJar. Second there are more than enough sailors to fill out the crew requirements. In the Clans do people volunteer to be used as unarmored infantry cannon fodder? No, they do it because they have no choice in the matter. Most combat troops are not given the choice where to serve they serve where they are ordered to serve out their enlistment. Do you really think that Generals ask privets if they want to be a mech pilot or to be a PBI? No, they tell the privet how he is to serve and if the privet does not follow orders the general will have the privet arrested for disobeying orders.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
01/07/14 10:30 AM
66.74.101.135

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I agree about the breaching rules. Not just sea but all vehicles. Most the games I have played with vehicles, more are lost from a single point of damage that ends in a crit, then having their armor ripped off. Well the ones that can survive more then a large laser hit. One half of all crits on vehicles can end up neutralizing the vehicle for the game. The crew killed is the only one that doesn't outright destroy the vehicle.

Now for more harjel questions. It can be used as many times as long as there is a single armor point left? Sounds like to many uses, though I don't know how big the system is.
As for breaches, if it prevents them, how does the harjel take a hit?
This isn't a dig retry. I just don't know the specs of it.
Retry
01/07/14 06:10 PM
67.239.109.174

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The Harjel is 1 ton, and I think it takes up 1 crit spot.

HarJel is considered to be taking an item slot and can take critical hits as such. Honestly though I don't know why. Balancing I think.

Unless you cite where you get your data of most people not caring for naval units, forgive me if I ignore your claim.

I'm pretty sure most of the clan unarmored(Their armor is superior to most IS infantry though) infantry cannon fodder are in a solahma unit with literally the purpose to die a most honorable death in battle. Other types of PBI though have no intention of dying honorable deaths, and thus won't have high morale when used as such.

And what do olive shrubs have to do with militaries?

Have fun with your massively demoralized toy navy crewmen dying in droves who ultimately riot.
CrayModerator
01/07/14 06:19 PM
71.47.122.85

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Quote:
I can't imagine anyone that would willingly join this unit.
Many of them have so little armor and no HarJel.



Of course they don't have HarJel. They're Inner Sphere vehicles, and level 1 (3025-era) vehicles at that.

As for their fragility, they're specialist water vehicles. Their most common foes are unlikely to be able to deal with them at matching ranges (though the surface boats need to watch for aircraft).

I would suggest, though, that the 300-ton submarines be replaced with larger submarines built to support vehicle rules. A 2,500- to 8,500-ton submarine would be a much more useful (and far faster) support unit / mobile HQ, and still transportable by DropShip.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (01/07/14 06:31 PM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/07/14 10:28 PM
172.56.38.133

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Quote:
I would suggest, though, that the 300-ton submarines be replaced with larger submarines built to support vehicle rules. A 2,500- to 8,500-ton submarine would be a much more useful (and far faster) support unit / mobile HQ, and still transportable by DropShip.



I did not have the rules for support vehicles when I designed it. When I did get the rules I started to design an aircraft carrier and got board with it before I finished it.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Retry
01/07/14 11:44 PM
67.239.109.174

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The support vehicle rules are ridiculous. You can't get much better than a tech level B min-maxed design filled with LTs and maybe heavy cannons and MGs. You have to burn that massive spare tonnage somehow..
Karagin
01/08/14 12:15 AM
24.243.178.124

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Are you guys saying that the all so amazing and wonderful support vehicle rules and design set up is not the holy grail of ideas for BT?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/08/14 08:57 AM
172.56.38.133

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I said nothing of the kind.

I said I got board with it.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
CrayModerator
01/08/14 06:13 PM
71.47.122.85

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Quote:
I did not have the rules for support vehicles when I designed it. When I did get the rules I started to design an aircraft carrier and got board with it before I finished it.



I understand. The largest support vehicles can mount a lot of equipment and require a lot of accounting not found in other units, even space WarShips.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
01/08/14 06:15 PM
71.47.122.85

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Quote:
The support vehicle rules are ridiculous. You can't get much better than a tech level B min-maxed design filled with LTs and maybe heavy cannons and MGs. You have to burn that massive spare tonnage somehow..



I never had a problem. For the smaller support vehicles, I tended ran out of space faster than tonnage. For the big vehicles, like carriers, it was pretty easy to soak tonnage with some fighter bays and sensible cargo capacities. Support vehicles aren't optimized for combat but, well, supporting roles.

And if you want a firepower improvement over a Tech B ship, look into the big cruise missiles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (01/08/14 06:16 PM)
Retry
01/08/14 07:40 PM
67.239.109.174

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I figured out the thing with carriers pretty quickly, and for ships like those the rules are decent. Low space, high tonnage fighter bays and stuff helps the problem. But for some reason they seem to be quite thinly armored for their tonnages, not to mention many of them are prone to breach rolls. Also, no special armors like reactive, which could REALLY help them.

That's the thing, battleships are hardly support vehicles. Requirements to sink tonnage into cargo? I can live with that. Mostly because there is just so little space left after putting in weapon systems... Not that I have a problem with super cargoships, I don't, but I do have one with trying to use said super cargoships as a front line unit like I want to do.

Them big cruise missiles? It's critical slot issue becomes even worse than LTs, and after all is said and done with critical slots and tonnage you may find out that, if you stock up on LT ammo, the LTs will have more damage potential(albeit shorter range) than the largest cruise missiles.

Sub-Capital weapons seem interesting. Unfortunately I don't think I can fit a sufficient amount on a ship w/o supersizing it.

Also I want better rules for actual combat airships. Super carrier equipped with fusion engines to refuel it's helium AND propel it and HarJel to seal breaches to keep it from being lost in the first place?
Karagin
01/08/14 08:02 PM
24.243.178.124

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I want one rule system for vehicles, not two. Though that seems to be a dangerous thing to suggest, kind of like pointing out the issues Jihad and we all saw how fast the faithful defended that.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/08/14 09:30 PM
172.56.14.19

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Once again HarJar on EVERYTHING. Your becoming ATN082268 and his 200 ton tanks.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Retry
01/08/14 11:04 PM
67.239.109.174

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*You're*

And apparently it's available enough for their clan elemental armor suits to possess HarJel.

The bigger ships NEED harjel! Have you never played with sea-faring vessels before? Especially with big subs such as the Neptune in sub-on-sub combat, fatalities occur much, much more common with hull breaches, enough that if you die the hard way you are LUCKY! Armor is of very little benefit if your enemy is a submarine, giving you rolls with a to-breach of 10. Without HarJel, large surface craft are sitting ducks to hunter killers. Smaller ships don't, but I don't invest in disposables, they're really bad for morale. At the extreme of 100 tonners and greater, it is as necessary as BAR 10 armor on combat vehicles and battlemechs.
Karagin
01/08/14 11:43 PM
24.243.178.124

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Nothing needs HarJel, just like nothing really needs sponsons nor do we need super heavy tanks ala Orge, but if you like it great, just realize the rest of us may not.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
01/08/14 11:59 PM
67.239.109.174

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Nothing needs armor either, technically.
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