Retry
01/09/14 05:25 PM
72.214.204.166
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[Moderator edit: there was nothing particularly wrong with this section of the thread except that it was off-topic to the original Maus thread. It was off-topic in that it ceased discussing the fan-designed Maus (unlike the remaining discussion in the Maus), so it was moved here. Feel free to continue discussing Ze Germans.]
The Germans knew tactics, technology, and engineering. As shown with the Blitz and the Me262.
The Tiger Tank does not classify as a super weapon at all. Just unreliable. Try the P.1000 or P.1500 for size.
It is just that Hitler fkd it all up with super weapon BS like everything else he laid his hands on.
Edited by Cray (01/11/14 09:47 AM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/09/14 10:07 PM
206.29.182.155
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Hitlers devotion to his super weapons programs where not BS. The worlds technology was advanced greatly during the war and after with the use of the German scientists. None of that would have come to be if it was not for hitlers super weapon programs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
01/09/14 10:15 PM
67.239.109.174
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*were*
Yes, the superweapons were BS. Check again and tell me how the Wunderwaffe P.1000 or P.1500 advanced technologies greatly.
No, Jets, Assault Rifles, Flying Wing Aircraft, Rocket Designs, and their very primitive guided missiles are not considered superweapons in the slightest.
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Retry
01/09/14 10:16 PM
67.239.109.174
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In addition, hardened armor decreases running MP by 1. Therefore your Maus should have a top speed that equals it's cruise speed.
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Karagin
01/09/14 10:32 PM
24.243.178.124
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For their time they were considered super weapons because the other side didn't have anything to counter them or their own version.
And the technology and skills that went into things like P.1000 and it's sisters allowed design teams to see things that worked and didn't work, and yes the push to build larger tanks that could be fast and deadly can be traced back to the Germans and their Panther and Tiger tanks as well as their super tanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/09/14 10:33 PM
67.239.109.174
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The "fast" part of that statement and Tigers and the super tanks don't mix. At all.
Additionally the U.K. DID have jets in the form of the Meteor F.3. And jets, while superior in top attainable speed, could be fought with props. It's not like massive advantages like the firearm was to the bow.
Edited by Retry (01/09/14 10:36 PM)
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Karagin
01/09/14 10:39 PM
24.243.178.124
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Have you looked at tank designs since the end of WW2? They have gotten bigger, and faster then ones before them, all of the tech in them is better each time then one before. And super tanks doesn't mean heaviest 500 ton monster that a design team comes up with, super tanks means the one that is the holy grail and is the drive to get there. Each time offering more to the next tank then the last one.
Look at the MBT-70 the for-runner of the M1 Abrams, it was faster then many of the tanks it was suppose to face, it had better armor, better computers and a better gun, and cost a lot more. It failed because politics and money issues, BUT it gave birth two decent tanks, the M1 Abrams and the Leopard 2 tank the Germans use.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (01/09/14 10:39 PM)
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Retry
01/09/14 10:44 PM
67.239.109.174
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That's because engines and horsepower improved so it could carry more weight at greater speeds. Basically you seem to be saying that:
The Tiger Tank was big
Modern Tanks are Big
Therefore Tigers inspired Modern Tanks
Which makes no sense when you consider the fact that the Tiger was one of the slowest armored fighting vehicles of WWII and the most prone to break down.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/09/14 10:45 PM
206.29.182.155
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By 2014 standards of course they are knot super weapons butt in there day they where great terror weapons and because of them more advanced weapons where developed.
You might want to pay attention to more than surface facts of history and no more of what people where thinking back then.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
01/09/14 10:58 PM
67.239.109.174
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*not* *but* *were* *know* *were*
In the day they were not terror weapons. P-51s, Spitfires, Tempests, and so forth did fight German Jets and won. Sure, they were more intimidating targets than BF-109Ks, but they were certainly not terror weapons. Their low fuel is and was exploited and they were often strafed on their airfields. If I recall correctly the Me-262 only achieved a 2 to 1 KDR versus it's opponents.
The tiger tank was nothing more than an awful waste of resources. They guzzled fuel, broke down stupidly often, and their armor was of low quality. Equivalent allied heavy tanks could breach the armor, and even Shermans could breach the rear and maybe the side armor with their main guns.
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Karagin
01/09/14 11:02 PM
24.243.178.124
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No Retry I am not saying that, I said the idea to get bigger with more power and weapons and armor all got their start with what the Germans did. They took things to the level and when they hit the wall of not being able to make their design they still offered ideas and tips etc...which allowed Allied and Soviet engineers etc...to see what could be done and they went forward and kept pushing things.
Each things a set, not a single leap to perfect. Which is what ATN keeps trying to give us each and everytime he posts his super tanks, to him they are the best thing going. Noting his mechs also tend to be in the heavy and assault weights and have all the cool tech and wonder weapons. I am willing to go out on a limb and say that we will see 100 plus ton mechs from him here real soon as well, all carrying the best of the best, which for him work, for the rest of us they don't.
And yes Tigers and Panthers and T35s all had their point of evolution in the technology of armored vehicles which DID inspire many of the things you find in modern tanks.
I suggest getting some of the Osprey books on fighting vehicles like their Vanguard and New Vanguard Series as well as books by Ian Hogg or Steve Zagola they will give you all of the points I talking about in spades and give you a lot more to go on as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/09/14 11:11 PM
67.239.109.174
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Navies didn't go with the bigger and with more firepower and armor route. Notably they got smaller.
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Karagin
01/09/14 11:16 PM
24.243.178.124
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Only because the aircraft (carrier) ended the rein of the battlewagons and submarines came into play as way to carry the same firepower if not more in their ability to use missiles tipped with nukes, another set of weapons the Germans pushed forward on, one getting them something, the other never a chance they had but it didn't stop them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/09/14 11:32 PM
206.29.182.155
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Yes they where. The Spitfire, P-51, and sow fourth where created two go against the Stooka fighter. The Me to six to had a great kill ratio if you discount the loses on the ground. In the air it was a terror weapon.
The same with the V1 cruse missile. Yes spitfires could shut them down butt at a great cost to fighters and pilots. It would have been cheeper on the pilots and fighters to let them just hit there targets.
as four the Tiger Tank it could wipe the battle field of other tanks. The problem was first their where just not enough of them and buy the end of the war they where being wiped out hole sail buy fighters with rockets. Thats why the battle of the bolge happened during a winer storm.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
01/09/14 11:44 PM
67.239.109.174
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What the hell, a stuka fighter?
You can't just say "well discount that" to further your point.
V1 Cruise Missiles don't kill fighters that are trying to intercept them. Rather, allowing them to go through could mean they hit the airfields, which means not intercepting them would be more expensive to crew and airframes.
The Tiger Tank was nothing special. A little bigger, and vulnerable to airstrikes and mechanically unreliable. And the Allies had cheaper, more reliable alternatives, such as the IS-3 and Pershing.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/09/14 11:50 PM
206.29.182.155
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Yes I can say that because they where just sitting on the ground not moving.
The American tanks where not all that reliable them self's. There where just a hell lot more of them that a couple out of service did not make much of a difference.
What happened to correcting my spelling? I was giving you lots of chances to do so because you enjoyed doing it so much.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Retry
01/09/14 11:55 PM
67.239.109.174
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They are on the ground not moving because they had a fatal flaw of low fuel capacity. You can't just say that "well, if you ignore this flaw..."
Obviously they weren't so unreliable that they broke down within a few miles else the war would have taken forever.
What happened is I noticed you were.
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ghostrider
01/10/14 12:20 AM
66.74.101.135
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The guns on the tiger were some of the best guns available at the time. I would think the rush to get them out caused alot of the mechanical issues.
Shermans didnt have a gun that would penetrate the tigers front armor in a single shot. That is the bigger better vs the plentiful lighter weight battle.
And talking about battetech and its history, the mech was the super weapon when it first came online at the defiance factories for the hamogony. They were used to try and stop the other houses from expanding. The houses then stole the technology while surviving the attacks from the newer created mechs, and built their own.
Sounds like a nuke and such. If they were used when built without pause, the world would not be in the shape it is. I could be worse, or it could be better. Alot depends on how you view the issue.
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ATN082268
01/10/14 01:47 AM
69.128.58.222
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Quote:
In addition, hardened armor decreases running MP by 1. Therefore your Maus should have a top speed that equals it's cruise speed.
Hardened Armor doesn't affect a vehicle's movement. The only penalty vehicles suffer from Hardened Armor is a +1 piloting/drive.
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Rotwang
01/10/14 06:22 AM
94.227.126.162
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Quote:
The Germans knew tactics, technology, and engineering. As shown with the Blitz and the Me262.
The Tiger Tank does not classify as a super weapon at all. Just unreliable. Try the P.1000 or P.1500 for size.
It is just that Hitler fkd it all up with super weapon BS like everything else he laid his hands on.
It certainly put the fear of God into Allied troops, anything that hit them hard was almost automatically a Tiger. The Tiger's reputation grew far beyond its actual battlefield usefulness.
Regarding the Tiger as a super-weapon, I contend it was. There were heavier tanks, tanks with bigger guns and tanks with thicker armour, but no tank had ever combined that level of firepower and armour into a single design. It was a design marvel, using the best materials available at the time, but the tech just didn't work out.
Tiger was designed to pre-empt the inevitable next generation of Allied tanks, that would be 30-40 ton designs, with a high-velocity gun around 75mm. The Germans could have built a Tiger that was merely a beefed up version of Panzer IV with a 75mmL48 (pretty much the original plan), but they ultimately decided to make a tank that would be able to take on the successors to those tanks as well with even thicker armour and a gun in the 76-90mm range.
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Rotwang
01/10/14 06:31 AM
94.227.126.162
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Quote:
Yes I can say that because they where just sitting on the ground not moving.
The American tanks where not all that reliable them self's. There where just a hell lot more of them that a couple out of service did not make much of a difference.
What happened to correcting my spelling? I was giving you lots of chances to do so because you enjoyed doing it so much.
US tanks like the Sherman were incredibly reliable compared to German tanks. Some Shermans were driven from Normandy all the way to the German border without a single breakdown. In Steve Zaloga's Armoured Thunderbolt, he establishes that Shermans were broken in and tested for a period that exceeded the entire life expectancy of a Panther tank.
If you look at the winners of the various campaigns of WWII, it's almost never the side with the bigger better tanks that wins, but the side that uses what they have in the most effective manner possible, supported by other arms. 30% of German tanks in the Battle for France didn't even have a cannon and if you include the 20mm of the Panzer II it's nearly 50%. And the Allies defeated the Germans in 1944 with Shermans (and the most powerful logistical train in history) when the Germans had Panthers and Tigers ...
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/10/14 12:12 PM
172.56.15.158
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Yes there will always be some examples that will defy the rule and with the shear number of Sherman tanks that where built you have a better chance that some will do quite well. The other factor is the ease of repair/maintenance of the Sherman to even increase the odds of that happening.
The crew of a Sherman was able to do some of their own maintenance where there was little a Tiger crew could do on their own. That had a great influence on how affective the two tanks ended up in battle. Some times a tank crew of a Sherman ended up working on their tank during a firefight to get the tank back into the battle.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
01/10/14 05:05 PM
24.243.178.124
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Oh and don't forget the Shermans had a nickname "Ronson" named from a type of Zippo style lighter, because they would burn when hit, given the fuel in use was common gasoline for the most part.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/10/14 07:24 PM
172.56.39.187
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Oh I have not forgotten all about that
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
01/10/14 07:51 PM
97.101.96.171
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Alright, folks, you're way off topic for this thread. Are you going to take this WW2 discussion to the off-topic forum, or do I need to lock the thread?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
01/10/14 08:18 PM
66.74.101.135
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I think i mentioned it being off topic a while ago. Maybe that was the other 3 threads or so. But I do believe the thread needs to be moved.
Be kind and move it. Maybe put it under a heading of superweapons and the times.
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Retry
01/11/14 01:19 AM
67.239.109.174
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It's a Maus. You just can't truely go off topic with WWII stuff when the tank is a Maus.
But it needs twin Long Tom Cannons for trolling with death, even though it will still be inefficient. It's doomed to be inefficient actually. All superheavies are except maybe a select few superheavy mechs.
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ATN082268
01/11/14 01:52 AM
69.128.58.222
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BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
* CUSTOM WEAPONS
Type/Model: Maus V
Tech: Clan / 3072
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Custom design
Mass: 185 tons
Power Plant: 370 XL Fusion
Cruise Speed: 21.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 32.4 km/h
Armor Type: Hardened
Armament:
1 ER Large Laser
1 Adv. Tact. Msl. 12
1 LRM 20 w/ Artemis V
2 Light Machine Guns
2 Anti-Missile Systems
2 Anti-Personnel Pods
2 B-Pods*
1 Angel ECM Suite
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Maus V
Mass: 185 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 95 pts Standard 0 37.00
Engine: 370 XL Fusion 1 18.25
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 9.13
Cruise MP: 2
Flank MP: 3
Heat Sinks: 12 Single 0 2.00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 9.25
Crew: 13 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 1.75
Sponson Turret Equipment: 0 .45
Armor Factor: 300 pts Hardened 0 37.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 19 50
Front L / R Sides: 19 45/45
Rear L / R Sides: 19 40/40
Rear: 19 40
Turret: 19 40
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 ER Large Laser Turret 12 1 4.00
1 Adv. Tact. Msl. 12 Turret 0 20 2 11.00
1 LRM 20 w/ Artemis V Turret 0 20 2 9.83
1 Light Machine Gun Lf_Spon 0 20 2 .35
1 Anti-Missile System Lf_Spon 0 15 2 1.13
1 Anti-Personnel Pod Lf_Spon 0 1 .50
1 B-Pod* Lf_Spon 0 1 1.00
1 Light Machine Gun Rt_Spon 0 20 1 .35
1 Anti-Missile System Rt_Spon 0 15 1 1.13
1 Anti-Personnel Pod Rt_Spon 0 1 .50
1 B-Pod* Rt_Spon 0 1 1.00
1 Angel ECM Suite Body 0 1 1.50
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 0 .00
Armored Motive System Body 1 18.50
Environmental Sealing Body 1 18.50
Cargo Bay Capacity Body 1 .39
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 12 21 185.00
Items & Tons Left: 21 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 75,545,542 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,616
Cost per BV: 46,748.48
Weapon Value: 2,616 / 2,376 (Ratio = 1.62 / 1.47)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 37; MRDmg = 28; LRDmg = 12
BattleForce2: MP: 2, Armor/Structure: 0 / 23
Damage PB/M/L: 6/4/3, Overheat: 0
Class: GA; Point Value: 16
Specials: if, ecm
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Karagin
01/11/14 01:54 AM
24.243.178.124
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All you did was up the tech even more and the cost. The Clans would not build this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
01/11/14 01:53 PM
50.72.218.68
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I can't help thinking that a 3025 Marauder or Whammy would be more than a match for this, at 1/10 the cost. Especially refitted with ClanTechm
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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