Karagin
01/24/14 11:09 PM
24.243.178.124
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Code: BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
THB Weapons
Type/Model: Firedrake
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3085
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 75 tons
Power Plant: 225 VOX Fusion
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor Type: Babyalion Heavy w. CASE Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 Tolgren Heavy Arms Mk10 HV AC/10 (THB)
1 Zeus LRM 15
2 Hawkeye Sure Fire SRM 4s
1 Apple Churchill 442x TAG TAG
2 Falcon Lasers ER Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Faraday Combine
Location: Friesland
Communications System: CurtissComm Mk IV
Targeting & Tracking System: Apple Churchill 2000 w. 442 TAG
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
The Firedreke was the first armored
fighting vehicle to be developed by Faraday Combine that went from prototype
to final production model in record time.
==Capabilities:==
Looking to make something that paid hommage to the older tanks but at the same
time was different the engineer and design team set out to make the Firedrake
a class of it's own.
The armament is formidable, mounting the newly developed Tolgren Heavy Arms
Mk10 HV AC/10. This allows the tank’s commander
to punch through a target with ease and kill most things in one shot. Once the
gunner has "harpooned" an opposing unit, the twin
Hawkeye Sure Fire four-tube missile racks take advantage of the damaged armor
to further punch into and gut then enemy. This combination is all but
guaranteed to cripple enemy vehicles with the first closerange shots.
Adding in the Zeus Long Range Missiles, that works in conjuction with the
Apple Churchill 442x TAG to guide the missiles into the target further
completes the death of anything caught in the crosshairs of the Firedrake.
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Firedrake
Mass: 75 tons
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 40 pts Standard 0 7.50
Engine: 225 Fusion 0 10.00
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 5.00
Cruise MP: 3
Flank MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 4.00
Crew: 5 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 3.00
Armor Factor: 215 pts Ferro-Fibrous 2 12.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 8 55
Left / Right Sides: 8 40/40
Rear: 8 30
Turret: 8 50
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 HV AC/10 (THB) Turret 0 16 2 16.00
1 LRM 15 Turret 0 16 2 9.00
2 SRM 4s Turret 0 25 3 5.00
1 TAG Turret 0 1 1.00
2 ER Medium Lasers Turret 10 2 2.00
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 1 .50
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 13 75.00
Items & Tons Left: 7 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 4,439,750 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,258 (old BV = 801)
Cost per BV: 3,529.21
Weapon Value: 1,089 / 1,089 (Ratio = .87 / .87)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 31; MRDmg = 18; LRDmg = 8
BattleForce2: MP: 3T, Armor/Structure: 0 / 9
Damage PB/M/L: 4/4/2, Overheat: 0
Class: GH; Point Value: 13
Specials: tag
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/24/14 11:31 PM
67.239.109.174
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Never use a HVAC. Never, never, never!
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Karagin
01/25/14 12:16 AM
24.243.178.124
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Really and why is that Retry? Seriously why would you not want to use something? I didn't want a Gauss since then it would be no different then other tanks rolling around and so the HVAC was the next choice, so I went with it. Now if you have a better suggestion, please share it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/25/14 02:24 AM
67.239.109.174
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Gauss rifle too mainstream? That's too bad because there's no other ballistic weapon that hits quite as hard as quite so far.
The HVAC/10 is an awful replacement idea. The concept of it is fine, but apparently in-canon the HVAC was never refined... at all. The only reason I'd personally make any unit with a HVAC/10 was if I wanted to secretly kill off an annoying crew...(Oops, the designers may have forgotten CASE...  ) Or as a specific spectacularly failed prototype.
HVAC/10? For a reduced damage potential to max 80 per ton, you get a weapon that weighs 3 tons more than the LB-10X AC, that extends the long range bracket by 2 and no more. It doesn't even get an accuracy bonus over the 10X by extending it's short and mid ranges, the only gain is 60 meters of maximum range[Not entirely true... you get heat(N/A on a tank) and more weight.] And what do you lose? Oh, nothing special, just the aforementioned 3 tons of weight, 20 lost potential damage per ton of ammo, and the flexibility of that ammo in the first place.
Oh, I forgot, it also gains the ability to blow itself up while firing. Every time you fire there is a 1/36 chance of this happening. That's the same chance of a UAC jamming...
It really should just end there. Any weapon with a chance as high as 1/36 to explode is just not viable for military duty. But the explosions cause even more, not quite forseen problems.
If you don't have any tank at 105+ tons, it won't survive a HVAC/10 explosion without case. If you are unfortunate enough to somehow not have CASE... well... let's just say against two large forces, the HVAC tanks will be doing a good enough job screwing themselves over without the help of the hostiles.
How about costs? One HVAC costs less than a LB-X. However, the LB-X doesn't explode and require replacements. So in the long term(and by this I mean whenever your gun blows up) you will be much better off with a LB-X.
HVAC/2s and 5s may have crazy high ranges, sure. Still no reason to bother. So does the Extended LRM launchers, and those won't blow up in your face. And with such small autocannon sizes, you probably won't kill anything bigger than lights without your gun blowing up first...
What's the difference between a gauss rifle and a hypervelocity autocannon? The enemy doesn't need to be engaging you to lose your biggest gun with the HVAC.
Use a LB-10X, an ER PPC, a Light Gauss Rifle. Anything but a self destructing cannon!
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Karagin
01/25/14 07:17 AM
24.243.178.124
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I believe they have revamped the HVACs in the new core rules, need to double check things. As for the rest all risks are worth taking at times. And ammo still goes boom for the other guns you mentioned and the Gauss can blow up as well.
And yes using the Gauss or LB-X series would indeed be clonning other tanks. Which I as trying to avoid doing, seeing how this is a bit different and not something one would expect to run into. As for the gun going boom, simple fix, home rule it out of the equation and things are better.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/25/14 02:10 PM
67.239.109.174
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If it has been revamped, no one has edited the wiki.
No. It's never worth the risk. The HVAC/10 is downright a bigger joke than the AC/2s and 5s for it's time. You gain 2 extra long range(over the LB-X) for a ludricous amount of additional penalties.
Not even some tac ops rule? It has to be house-ruled?
That goes to show how awful the weapon really is.
But yeah, I wouldn't expect to see a tank capable of blowing itself up before I even begin to attack it. But I don't think making an awful tank is the right way to go.
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Karagin
01/25/14 07:31 PM
24.243.178.124
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I don't trust wiki pages at all. The weapon is not awful, it was poorly written in a book that was trying to do more then was intended.
It is not an awful tank, as I said, the chance of the gun going boom can be tossed if both sides agree, and given that most folks ignore the UAC jamming rule, that should tell you that most normally ignore the chance of the gun going off from firing.
I do believe the HVAC have been revamped, when I get the chance I will check the rule books, even still, as I said many will ignore the explosion rule and play the game or use the idea of snakes eyes aka rolling a two on the to hit roll as something went wrong then worry about the explosion etc...which is what my group does, if yours doesn't well that is how you play.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/25/14 10:46 PM
67.239.109.174
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Megamek shows the same stats. Having to rely on house ruling to make a weapon viable doesn't make the weapon viable, per say.
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Karagin
01/25/14 11:15 PM
24.243.178.124
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Megamek is NOT Battletech, so there is that. And who said you had to follow what another group does or doesn't do? I said my group tosses the silly rules etc...and goes with what works for us. If you don't find it viable then stick to the normal rules.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/25/14 11:20 PM
67.239.109.174
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Megamek is essentially rulesets from a bunch of battletech instruction books and stuff put into a java code that can be played on the CPU. So there is little reason, unless there was a very, very unlikely error, for there to doubt that is how the HVAC works.
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Karagin
01/25/14 11:34 PM
24.243.178.124
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Megamek IS NOT BATTLETECH. I don't care if they followed the rules it's NOT an official licensed BT product so it's not Battletech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/25/14 11:59 PM
67.239.109.174
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But it follows battletech's rules nearly to the letter. The only reason I say "nearly" is because I don't have a comprehensive understanding of every battletech rule that exists. Therefore you can infer that battletech has the rule itself. Battletech IS battletech. You can't argue that.
Read up on it yourself, HVACs work as I say they do.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/26/14 07:19 AM
172.56.33.101
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Karagin if you want to nit pick official rules. The HVAC will explode on a bad roll unless you can find somewhere where the HVAC official rules has been updated.
You cant argue it both ways.
I would not be surprised if it never is updated. The HVAC is not a core weapon system.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
01/26/14 12:24 PM
24.243.178.124
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They list it in the Core rules books, but give no rules for it, maybe Cray can shed some light on them. And I am not nitpicking the rules, I am saying if a group wants to ignore the chance of the HVAC going boom then they can do that and if they don't then that option is there as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/26/14 01:44 PM
67.239.109.174
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IMO the HVAC should deal extra damage. The shells do achieve higher velocities than normal...
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ghostrider
01/26/14 03:26 PM
66.27.181.91
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Until megamek is named as canon by the people who own the game, it is a helpful, but not official program.
I have not read the new systems, just because they started getting beyond a good balance just after the clans showed up.
Now there being a chance for the weapon to blow up is bad. But you take that chance any time you go out into battle with anything. I am assuming it runs along the lines of a rac. Multiple shots fired at one, probably more the 2 times, otherwise it would be an ultra. This confirms alot about retrys ideas on the game.
He is a min/max person. Thats fine for him and his group.
Now the blowing up part. Is that the weapon blowing up or the ammo along with the bin? The gauss rifle weapon blows up when it is critted. Along that line, it shouldnt be used because of that. Yes, thats not simply firing the weapon, so it isnt as strict.
Masc can lock up the legs of a mech with increasing probability with every consecutive round.
It sounds like the hv systems were made for tanks. The extra heat is ignored, and give them an extra punch. You talk about the weight, but what weapon that weighs 3 tons does 10 points of damage on a hit?
Now argueing house rules when trying to defend a unit isnt gonna win people over. Yes, everyone plays things their way.
And retry does have a point about the damage. The gauss rifle has the good damage because of the speed of the shells. They are not explosive, but a large chunk of metal. But I guess their developement department hadnt thought the logic and physics should apply to all. If it did extra damage, it might become a mainstream item.
On a side note, when the heavy laser came out, I thought it was stupid to use it. With combat with the clans taking place at long range, I would figure they would never get close enough to use them to full effect.
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Karagin
01/26/14 03:52 PM
24.243.178.124
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Not arguing house rules vs the rules, I was saying that one could house rule away the exploding gun idea, which would take the issue out of the picture if one wanted too, that was all. I am not using it as defense, where as ALL of Retry's issues stems form the part that the HVACs can blow up, that seems to be his only complaint here. My point was to offer away around that issue. He does have a point about the damage with HVAC but at the same time this is FASA-style physics we are dealing with. And you are correct a lot of systems have issues and folks still use them, so the HVACs are no different.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/26/14 05:04 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
Gauss rifle too mainstream? That's too bad because there's no other ballistic weapon that hits quite as hard as quite so far.
HVAC/10? For a reduced damage potential to max 80 per ton, you get a weapon that weighs 3 tons more than the LB-10X AC, that extends the long range bracket by 2 and no more. It doesn't even get an accuracy bonus over the 10X by extending it's short and mid ranges, the only gain is 60 meters of maximum range[Not entirely true... you get heat(N/A on a tank) and more weight.] And what do you lose? Oh, nothing special, just the aforementioned 3 tons of weight, 20 lost potential damage per ton of ammo, and the flexibility of that ammo in the first place.
Last I checked this isn't "all"
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Retry
01/26/14 05:11 PM
67.239.109.174
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Ghost, it weighs 14 tons, not 3 tons. The LB-X is 3 tons lighter than the HVAC. There is no extra punch either.
As much as I have issues with other weapons, none of the others are nearly as prohibitive as the HVAC.
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Karagin
01/26/14 05:11 PM
24.243.178.124
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Quote:
But it follows battletech's rules nearly to the letter. The only reason I say "nearly" is because I don't have a comprehensive understanding of every battletech rule that exists. Therefore you can infer that battletech has the rule itself. Battletech IS battletech. You can't argue that.
Read up on it yourself, HVACs work as I say they do.
Again MegaMek is NOT an official CGL product so it doesn't matter if they follow the rules or not, it's NOT official nor a licensed product.
I am aware of how the HVAC work in the game, again my point of house ruling it Retry was to counter you sole complaint about the Firedrake is that the HVAC10 can blow up, IF a group doesn't want to have that happen they can say that rule is not being used, doesn't change how the gun functions beyond that it doesn't blow up. Or again as I said if folks don't want to change things, then they can play as they want. As was pointed out other weapons systems can blow up or jam or fail and yet folks still use them in the game, so the HVAC is no different. Now if this is your sole complaint about the Firedrake then think you have made you point that you don't like the HVAC, which we have all gotten.
Also I never claimed the HVAC didn't blow up, I said they MAY HAVE CHANGED them in the new Core rules, since they do get mentioned, but as of right now I have not found anything new and as I said we could ask Cray or even better see what LD says by asking CGL themselves.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/26/14 06:38 PM
67.239.109.174
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My god, I repost the applicable section about the other complaints on the HVAC/10, and you conveniently ignore it.
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Karagin
01/26/14 07:53 PM
24.243.178.124
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Didn't ignore it Retry, pointing out that your dislike of the HVAC10 is your sole complaint about the Firedrake and how that has become the sole focus of the topic here.
I never said it was the best choice, I said I wanted to go a different route and not clone other vehicles which using the Gauss or LBX systems would have been doing. If I wanted clones I would rename existing vehicles and call it good to go.
So beyond your dislike of the HVAC, is there anything else you don't like about the tank or is that your sole issue or complaint?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
01/26/14 09:46 PM
67.239.109.174
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Hatred of the HVAC, but yes, sole complaint.
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ghostrider
01/27/14 01:32 PM
66.27.181.91
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sounds like retry and I have the same luck. First time you roll for a hit and have something happen, like ultra lock, or tank is immobilized.
I said it was 3 tons more then the lb10x. Atleast thats how it reads.
But its been said more then a few times, change what you dont like, if you want to use the unit.
And a reminder, people will point out things they some would not like, but dont look deep enough to see it until they try it.
And there are alot of clones out there. Some are not exact. They can be different weights.
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Cray
01/27/14 07:16 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
They list it in the Core rules books, but give no rules for it
HVAC rules are in TacOps p. 284-285. The bits about exploding on a roll of 2 are on p. 285, as are its big smoke cloud.
The HVAC explosion is optional in the sense that HVACs as a whole are optional, since they are Experimental-grade equipment. However, generally you don't get to cherrypick features of equipment separate of the whole item.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/27/14 09:46 PM
24.243.178.124
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Glad to see that Cray thank you and as for your last comment, folks play how they want to play.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/28/14 06:09 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
as for your last comment, folks play how they want to play.
Oh, yep. Rule 0 is the ultimate rule in home games.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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