ATN082268
02/05/14 06:07 AM
69.128.58.222
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BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Critter
Tech: Clan / 3072
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Custom design
Mass: 100 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 400 XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: 4 Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 Large Pulse Lasers
10 Streak SRM 4s
1 Light Active Probe
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Critter
Mass: 100 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 152 pts Endo Steel 7 5.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 2 LA, 2 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 RL)
Engine: 400 XL Fusion 10 26.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4
Heat Sinks: 11 Double [22] 0 1.00
Gyro: 4 4.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 307 pts Ferro-Fibrous 7 16.00
(Armor Crit Loc: 2 LA, 2 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LL)
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 31 47
Center Torso (Rear): 15
L/R Side Torso: 21 32/32
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 10/10
L/R Arm: 17 34/34
L/R Leg: 21 42/42
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Large Pulse Laser RA 10 2 6.00
1 Large Pulse Laser LA 10 2 6.00
5 Streak SRM 4s RT 15 100 9 14.00
(Ammo Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT)
5 Streak SRM 4s LT 15 5 10.00
1 Light Active Probe HD 0 1 .50
4 Standard Jump Jets: 4 8.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 50 72 100.00
Crits & Tons Left: 6 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 30,429,334 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 2,817 (old BV = 2,703)
Cost per BV2: 10,802.04
Weapon Value: 3,965 / 3,057 (Ratio = 1.41 / 1.09)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 42; MRDmg = 23; LRDmg = 12
BattleForce2: MP: 4J, Armor/Structure: 8/6
Damage PB/M/L: 5/4/1, Overheat: 4
Class: MA; Point Value: 28
Specials: prb
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Karagin
02/05/14 06:27 AM
24.243.178.124
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The same load out can be placed on a smaller more agile mech that can do more for far less cost and thus actually USE the weapons more effectively.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rotwang
02/05/14 07:05 AM
94.227.126.162
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25 tons lighter, about half the cost and comparable BV.
Copy-Cat
Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 16.630.250 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2.466
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43,2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64,8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
2 Large Pulse Lasers
10 Streak SRM-4s
1 Light Active Probe
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 114 points 4,00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT, 2 LA, 1 RA
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 300 9,50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 4,00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 11(22) 1,00
Gyro: Standard 3,00
Cockpit: Standard 3,00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 224 14,00
CASE Locations: LT, RT 0,00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 36
Center Torso (rear) 9
L/R Torso 16 24
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 12 24
L/R Leg 16 29
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Pulse Laser RA 10 2 6,00
Large Pulse Laser LA 10 2 6,00
5 Streak SRM-4s RT 15 5 10,00
5 Streak SRM-4s LT 15 5 10,00
Light Active Probe CT 0 1 0,50
@Streak SRM-4 (50) RT - 2 2,00
@Streak SRM-4 (50) LT - 2 2,00
Free Critical Slots: 13
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 25
4j 5 5 1 0 3 4 Structure: 4
Special Abilities: LPRB, RCN, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
And then something I cooked up, still cheaper, higher BV, cooler, faster and has better overall range. Trick is to stay more than 12 hexes away from his mech and pound away with two potential instant death headcaps each turn.
Not saying mine is invincible, it's hardly that, it's not a very balanced design either, but it can do some decent damage at range and has good mobility.
Copy-Cat II
Mass: 75 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-D-D-A
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 19.603.500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3.094
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 375 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54,0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86,4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 ER PPCs
2 LRM-15s
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 114 points 4,00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT, 2 LA, 1 RA
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 375 19,50
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL 5,00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 15(30) 5,00
Gyro: Standard 4,00
Cockpit: Standard 3,00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 220 11,50
Armor Locations: 2 LT, 1 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA
CASE Locations: LT, RT 0,00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 36
Center Torso (rear) 9
L/R Torso 16 24
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 12 22
L/R Leg 16 29
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC RA 15 2 6,00
ER PPC LA 15 2 6,00
LRM-15 RT 5 2 3,50
LRM-15 LT 5 2 3,50
@LRM-15 (16) RT - 2 2,00
@LRM-15 (16) LT - 2 2,00
Free Critical Slots: 12
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 31
5j 4 4 4 0 3 0 Structure: 4
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, LRM 1/1/1, IF 1
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Cray
02/05/14 06:09 PM
71.47.122.85
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Hey, it's not 2/3 despite the 100 tons. This is a fairly mobile design. Not optimized, but at least it's a 100-ton design that isn't target practice for something cheap and light. Actually, it looks fun.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/05/14 10:20 PM
70.118.139.48
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Why would a Clan, any Clan build this a purpose built mech when they can fit the same load out on existing mechs or have one that is cheaper all the way around then this one? Has has been proven the same weapon load out can be found on better chassis platforms that can get more use.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/05/14 10:26 PM
67.239.109.174
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Clans care not about cost.
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Karagin
02/05/14 10:38 PM
70.118.139.48
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They do when it comes to wasting resources. And this mech does that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/05/14 10:44 PM
67.239.109.174
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A smaller mech could have the same equipment for less cost, but it would be at the cost of durability. The clans with their zellbrigen and dueling and stuff would definitely put that into consideration.
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Karagin
02/05/14 11:07 PM
70.118.139.48
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Yes they would and many would consider using a 100 ton mech to be beneath their skills and honor, or are you suggesting that the Clans for go light and medium mechs in favor of only using heavy and assault mechs since those are the only kind to make it out of combat in a manner suggesting that would be around to fight another day?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/05/14 11:08 PM
67.239.109.174
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I believe they use lights and mediums because they can go as fast as they go and carry the weapons with durability.
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Retry
02/05/14 11:09 PM
67.239.109.174
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That or the Daishi is actually a conspiracy or plot created by The Society.
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Karagin
02/05/14 11:22 PM
70.118.139.48
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So then if the above mech's weapon load can fit on other classes of mechs, thus saving the Clans resources and the same load out can fit on existing Clan 100 ton mechs, why would they waste more resources on a new 100 mech that really only big advantage is the 4/6/4 and a that is all because a chunk of weight is lost to the 400 rated engine?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/05/14 11:24 PM
67.239.109.174
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1.Already went over this above.
2.A resource isn't saved when you lose a mech because it was just not durable enough to handle the onslaught of an attack that would have just made it with just a few more points of internal structure or armor, would it?
3.The mechwarrior pilots would be displeased if the clans all the sudden decided not spending top dollar for them is all right.
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Karagin
02/06/14 01:00 AM
70.118.139.48
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They do spend top dollar...every Clan mech does the job/role given to it very well. And using your points there should be no Clan mechs below 70 tons since your whole statement invalidates medium and light mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/06/14 01:54 AM
24.30.128.72
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Honestly, why would the clans build anything but omni mechs? Most 'custom' mechs do not surpass the omni's in any way that would be worth building. Now making this an omni mech, with this being the prime loadout might work for them.
This mech would be ideal for getting close, which the clans might not like, but are forced to do time to time. City fighting would be a good example of the range this mech might be useful in.
I also agree that if it can be done in a lighter mech, then they would use it in a lighter mech. I think the Timberwolf/madcat omni would be the version rotwang came up with. One problem with the first 2 versions is the speed. The timberwolf is a 5/8 mech. Not sure if losing the jets would allow it to fit or not.
Even if you needed to drop a couple of 4 packs, it would still be a nasty mech
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ATN082268
02/06/14 02:46 AM
69.128.58.222
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Quote:
Clans care not about cost.
I can't argue with that  There are a lot of Clan designs which are expensive like the 80 ton Phoenix Hawk IIC 3, one of many examples, that costs 21,398,639 equivalent in C-Bills. For the Clans, does it make sense or is it really cost effective to design something like a huge, new version of the Inner Sphere Phoenix Hawk BattleMech? And yet it is canon. If the Clans were keen on conserving resources, at least from a 'Mech design perspective, each Clan would, among other things, have a limited number of different OmniMech types instead of the current multitude of OmniMech types and standard BattleMechs.
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ghostrider
02/06/14 04:48 AM
24.30.128.72
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It is my understanding that clans use only a few different styles omnimechs in their forces. The list of omni mechs is to cover all the clans.
Granted the novels arent canon, but the tro's are. In one, it claims the falcons do not use the Direwolf, but clan wolf does. The falcons make the turkina mech to be their assault mech. I don't remember if it is an omni mech or not. The Mad dog is a mech the falcons do use.
The ghost bears use the kodiak, which is unusual, because that one is NOT an omni.
Upgrading the mechs they had left over when they fled the innersphere makes sense.
As for a complete redesign like the Phoenix Hawk is perplexing. With the way I read their history, they would not have wasted the resources in redesigning it. The best guess is that one of their khans(game designers using the clan) liked the design and wanted to build them.
Now with not using a whole slew of battlemech, the innersphere could be guilty of that comment. More then a few mechs should have been abandoned years ago. The factories changed over to something more usefull. Each person has their ideas of useful. The original charger should never have been built. 5 small lasers, but the mech was good for physicals. Then why have small lasers in the arms? Punches are less likely to have the mech fall over if missed. Also better chance to smash in a head.
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Rotwang
02/06/14 08:11 AM
94.227.126.162
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The Clans are like the current US army or the nazis in WWII, they would rather have 10 high-tech weapons than be caught with the same 50 low tech ones everybody else is using (CF US army in WWII or Soviet era designs). Because they can't crank out enough Mat Cats VII and Daishi XVII's they either use the old SLDF mechs with upgrades or build second line mechs that are cheaper to build and run. The Inner Sphere covers the whole spectrum, from scrounging together old parts to MUSE-flights of fancy that cost more than a Trinary of Clan Assault Mechs.
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ghostrider
02/06/14 12:38 PM
24.30.128.72
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With the omni mech being the mech of the 'priviledged', it is reserved for front line units. Something simple like guarding a park, it is unliked the clans would have an omni do it. It is also a way to punish those that are not buddies with the high command in a clan.
When first introduced, clans were not likely to engage more then one target, or gang up on a target. They stood at range and warred. They would allow a star mate lose a mech and possibly die before stepping in. This is part of the reason they tended to shun vehicles. All of them wanted to be top dog, and in a vehicle, that is not possible.
Since their way of fighting didn't put alot of emphasis on having long fights, they tended to use ammo like there was no tomarrow. They could reload and repair between fights, since it was ritualized. Since dealing with innersphere and their 'dishonorable' ways of fighting, this has changed.
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Cray
02/06/14 06:31 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Why would a Clan, any Clan build this a purpose built mech when they can fit the same load out on existing mechs or have one that is cheaper all the way around then this one?
For the same reason Clans never use omnitech properly. You'd think a Clan would only need 2-3 OmniMech chassis...chasses...chassises...bodies; a few omni-vehicles; and a few omni-fighters but, no. New purpose-built designs and all-new omnis doing the same thing over again.
At least ATN's design could be a modest modification of a Kodiak or other 100-ton, 4/6 Clan design. It needn't be all-new.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/06/14 07:22 PM
70.118.139.48
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Which is what many of us have said Cray, his weapon load out would work on several different omnis and thus not needing another 100 ton mech to built to carry it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ATN082268
02/07/14 01:02 AM
69.128.58.222
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Quote:
Which is what many of us have said Cray, his weapon load out would work on several different omnis and thus not needing another 100 ton mech to built to carry it.
No. Cray's reference was to the Clan Kodiak which is an existing, standard BattleMech design and not an OmniMech. Using the chassis of an existing 100 ton standard BattleMech, like the Kodiak, is one possibility for the Critter although a brand new design is certainly possible too.
Stating that a Clan, House, etc would never build unit X, for example, is a bit absurd if something similar has already occurred in the Battletech Universe. You can debate things like how widespread the deployment of a unit might be or how effective it may be in combat but that is wholly different than stating it would never exist in the Battletech Universe.
Just realize that when you apply your standards to what should belong in the Battletech Universe that it may be very different to the one for the canon Battletech Universe.
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Karagin
02/07/14 06:27 AM
70.118.139.48
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ATN are you saying that your ideas are on line with canon stuff? That is rich considering how far out in left field 99% of your designs are.
And the Clans would NOT build your 100 ton 4/6/4 mech from the ground up when the same load out of weapons can fit on existing ones to include lighter weight mechs. So how about you stop trying to say you know the standards of the canon universe when it's clear you do not.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/07/14 03:22 PM
24.30.128.72
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Clans used the same omnis because it was the most economical way of doing things.
There have been other designs for sure, but most were limited.
I do agree that the clans would PROBABLY use an omni and make an alternative variant as opposed to creating a whole new mech. You might end that arguement if you make it an omni and come out with a few other variants.
Honestly, I can see being made into an omni may not work well. The amount of crits left from both the endo steel and ferrous fiber may not be enough to have enough viable room for the big guns. Especially if you have to add in extra heat sinks.
And cray does have a point. It could be said it is a varient of the Kodiak. I believe that was a 4/6 mech.
I could see one of the other clans raiding the ghost bears and researching a design more compatible to their style of fighting.
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Retry
02/07/14 06:08 PM
67.239.109.174
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If a clan has the choice between a heavier mech with the same armament as the lighter mech and speed BUT has more armor, for only a moderate rise in costs, the clans will choice the heavier mech as more armor means more shots can be taken which means it's more likely your fabled mechwarrior will be victorious in a one on one
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Karagin
02/07/14 06:54 PM
70.118.139.48
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That Retry depends on the Clans needs, if they see a need they would go with the 100 ton set up, if they see the need for the same weapons on a lighter omni then they would go with that.
14 total crits lost to Endo and Ferro combined for the Clans normally leaves enough room for things in most of their designs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/07/14 07:15 PM
67.239.109.174
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Right, is this the same logic which you are applying that your Dragon will be produced more and see more combat than my modified design that is much cheaper and has more armor, 20 tons heavier but same everything else, purely due to it's weight?
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Karagin
02/07/14 08:09 PM
70.118.139.48
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No Retry, I am saying that they would NOT build a mech just to carry this load out as ATN claims, since they can see clearly that it will fit on existing chassis and classes of Omni mechs, to include an existing NON-omni call the Kodiak, so why would they need to re-event the wheel here?
And yes Retry your take on the Dragon HAAAV loses out because it got heavier, sure it's cheaper but now you have to deal with a change in classification and how it's transported thus cutting into the savings you are so proud of. And that idea of saving resources would be right up the Clans ally when they see that the load out of weapons ATN has gone with can fit on things they have then they would not build a new mech just to use the load out of weapons.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/07/14 11:35 PM
67.239.109.174
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The classification ratings are abstract and only serve for use with equipment that scale with the size of a vehicle, for example Actuator Enhancement Systems that increase in 1 crit per increase on the abstract vehicle classification. That's it. That's all. Assault vehicles, other than the special scaling equipment, have nothing different than vehicles
There is no change into how it's transported, absolutely none. As always you just stuff it into a dropship's heavy vehicle bay.
Or you can stuff it in cargo, where your Dragon wins out slightly, yet this is still outweighed by your vastly inferior paper armor.
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Karagin
02/08/14 11:32 AM
70.118.139.48
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What you are forgetting is I never built the Dragon HAAAV as a front line machine, so yes it's armor is not going to take the beating of say an Alacorn or a Burke, it's not meant to. Which is another thing I think you might have missed. It is a fire support/Triple A vehicle NOT a front line AFV.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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