Karagin
03/15/14 10:47 PM
70.118.139.48
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24 heat for the ERLL, then you have zero heat, since the heat sinks take out 24 now IF you fire both the LRMS which is 5 heat for each, that is 10 heat and the RAC heat is 1, that makes 11, add in walking or running, and you have maybe 12. So you make some rolls avoid a few things, again all depending how luck works for you, but wait again NO one is going to go all guns blazing every turn, not a smart player. So yes the heat is fine.
Your math is WAY off Retry. The heat for each weapon is listed in the stats above do the math. Also you are not taking into account the fact that while you may have the range the chance to hit may not be there or the player MAY NOT want to fire the LRMs or the RAC that turn for what ever reason. Again humans play different then the AI you are use to.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/15/14 10:59 PM
76.7.238.202
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Are you using your RAC like a RAC or like an AC?
Add in walking or running, you WILL have at least 1 extra, with running 2 extra heat.
RACs generate 1 heat PER shot fired to a max of 6 shots and 6 heat. Same with Ultra Autocannons.
And I do play against humans. Which I have said before...
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Karagin
03/15/14 11:07 PM
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Again Retry, NOT all of the weapons are going to be fired at the same time, I am not sure you understand that statement. I don't see a normal player going full alpha every time its' their turn to fire. I see them using the mech's LRMs to harass and then snipe with the ERLLs, then use the RAC to play crit finder when needed. I don't see anyone standing there blazing away with all the weapons at all.
Those who do will not last long in this mech or any other mech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/15/14 11:09 PM
66.27.181.33
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lt would be semi simple to solve. Use the ammo weapons while trying to cool down. Help do damage, while getting rid of the ammo boom items.
As for heat, that is always a problem in larger mechs. Trying to control it is the key.
Now your example can be used against they mechs you have put out as well. So unless you will have a mech with 2 dozen double heatsinks and only mgs firing, this could apply to everything.
Also minimum range will pull items out of firing. Yes that is true with my saying to use the ammo weapons while cooling down. Keeping the enemy at range of 6/7 would be ideal for all of them.
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Retry
03/15/14 11:10 PM
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I know you won't alpha every time, but even when only firing with your weapons in a range bracket(LRM+laser, laser+autocannon) it has serious, serious heat issues. Which is bad if you want to actually kill something.
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Retry
03/15/14 11:12 PM
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Err, Ghostrider, I'm interested now. Can you point out an example where one of my mechs have serious heat issues?(Though bump that thread to keep this one on topic)
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Karagin
03/15/14 11:13 PM
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It not that serious Retry, a good player will know when to NOT fire things and when to fire. Again humans won't just roll the dice cause of the range brackets, if I don't think I can pull of the die roll then I am not going to fire the weapon(s), which you would understand if you regular played the actual board game. Just because it's in range doesn't mean you have to fire, and let's see add in some woods, a hill or two, the moment of the target, yeah the odds pop up and you don't get the chance to fire three of the five weapons or even any at all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/15/14 11:24 PM
66.27.181.33
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even your 100 tonners are vulnerable to the inferno/hex on fire tactics. It is one scenario that every mech faces. Even the original locust would have issues with it.
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Retry
03/15/14 11:26 PM
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I'd agree if it was a stock mech like the original Rifleman, with 10 HS and 2 AC/5s, 2 LLs. But this is a custom with unneeded heat issues.
For example, someone just got up from a prone position due to a bad PSR and didn't move enough for a to-hit mod. The terrain is somewhat open, enough that it doesn't create a to-hit mod. Your Lirpas just moved at walking speed and is at range 7. 4 base mod +1 walking makes the to-hit 5 and 7 for the AC. These odds are very good for trying an alpha strike. Say this alpha strike is the best bet you have to destroy the annoying mech in this turn, which will otherwise cause serious damage. However, even if you only fire part of your weapon systems you will likely have a net gain of heat, let alone anything close to an alpha. Even a simple firing of all your short range or long range bracket weapons, neglecting the bad bracket, will create serious heat.
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Karagin
03/15/14 11:32 PM
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Retry, I rarely min/max things, I don't build mechs to be perfect, I build them to have some issues and not to be the best of the best, because that to me is boring. I don't want to have the best, I know nothing truly works as the company who made it claims, so everything is flawed. You like to min/max things and you like to have the best of the best on your stuff.
Here is an idea, since you love MegaMek, take some of your stuff against ATNs designs and see what happens.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/15/14 11:33 PM
66.27.181.33
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Yes, there will be times when firing everything is worth the risk.. Dealing with it afterwards is a problem.
Most people will not fire an ammo weapon on a roll of 9+ without a good reason, like it is the only weapon they have left, or they are about to die.
Most good mechs overheat when firing everything. I would like to be able to fire every round, but that is not going to be possible. Hell one of the better canon mechs overheats a little every round without firing everything. The Awesome. 29 heat sinks, 30 heat points without moving. One time out of 5-10 you fire 2 instead of 3. Now if you hit it with hot planet, infernos and everything else, it will overheat.
If it that big of a concern, go with space assets and blow the place up from orbit, or use the hell out of tanks and ammo weapons that don't increase heat in vehicles. Turrets as well.
The larger the mech, the more it tends to have heat issues. This one could benefit from a sink or 3 more, but finding the weight to do so, might be an issue.
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Retry
03/15/14 11:41 PM
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Why would I mess around with ATN's designs? Why would you compare them to ATN's designs?
Regardless of min-maxing, the flaw is not just there, it's large.(And, I must note, if I don't want "perfect" or "min-maxed" stuff I take canon designs. They're fine in that department.
And I'd like to note you can't really truely "min-max". It's simply impossible to make a design the best at every field it can be. The best you can do is patch up obvious problems such as heat, armor, mobility. A unit can be "min maxed" and still generate some heat during an alpha strike, just not this much. Tonnage and crit spaces prevents true min maxing.
I'd like to note that the Awesome's 1 spare heat point when firing it's 3 PPCs doesn't compare to this mech's 10 spare heat points in the long range bracket.
Also, for some reason, vehicles on hot planets slow down, while mechs only gain a point of 2 of heat. So they're in fact a worse choice for hot planets.
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ghostrider
03/15/14 11:50 PM
66.27.181.33
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haven't seen the vehicles slow down, but don't have new rules.
And honestly, why not take on atn's designs. They push alot of the normal concepts. It would be interesting to see how the full cloaking units do against the super heavy concept units.
The main issue with alot of that is the battle armor. Maybe just burning the entire area would put everything on even terms.
You have already found the big issue with pulse lasers in the game. The -2 to hit, especially when combined with the targetting laser is nasty. Range is the only issue, which along with the crits of endo and such is why you had to go to the clan tech.
You have set up a nice defensive set up, with a few items I consider questionable. Wether I like them or not, your set up works for you.
With the heat issue, the best you can do is watch what you fire. Some units don't have much of a choice.
As for flaws in the canon units, think about this. When the enemy gets that unit, would you want to fight something with a few flaws in it, or would you like a mirror match?
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Retry
03/15/14 11:59 PM
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ATN's designs are all basically the same thing. A formula. They seem... bland to me.
The canon units don't just have flaws, they are glaring to the point of stupidity. The Rifleman and the Charger are examples.
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ghostrider
03/16/14 12:04 AM
66.27.181.33
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have you done a couple of mirror matches with the same units and number on both sides?
I agree the charger was a stupid design. if it was made for physical combat before axes and such, having arm mounted small lasers went beyond idiocy. They wanted people kicking. Fine. There are times when that is not smart.
The rifleman is a one of those mechs that should have been a little better designed. I like the looks of it, but the heat vs weapons was stupid. Granted it came out when the autocannon was the only one, and that is now an ac 5. It is one of those mechs you definately need to switch weapons you fire.
It is also in the weight that is hard to come up with something decent. Maybe making it all ac 5 instead of the large lasers. Or pull out the mls for heat sinks. Yes, it is a poor design.
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Retry
03/16/14 12:08 AM
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If you patched up the awful mechs you still wouldn't be left with mirror battles. Good and tolerable mechs will exist in great enough variety. The Panther and Vindicator have similar roles and yet are different enough to have different feels, nothing like a mirror match.
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ghostrider
03/16/14 12:15 AM
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do a mirror match with your updated units.
I would prefer to attack normal lance urbanmechs in the open then deal with a single atlas.
Now switch the atlas for an awesome in the open when you got a slow mech. The flaws give you a chance to make the battle interesting without making it a suicide mission. Granted when YOUR stuck in the urbanmech, you feel like it is a suicide mission.
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Retry
03/16/14 12:21 AM
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I really don't care for mirror matches.
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Karagin
03/16/14 01:06 PM
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So the 70 ton version works better. Now I need to link the fluff for these two together...any ideas?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/16/14 03:51 PM
66.27.181.1
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you could use the test pilots suggested a few things while in developement. Maybe the the armor around the ammo bays were weak, and the case was put in to fix the problem, while adding some extra armor fixed it, but they left the case in case.
Myabe heat caused the issue (or something else like it) and an extra heat sink was installed between it and the engine to keep it cooler.
A redesign of the interior caused the weight to be increased to accomidate the redesign.
The customer that ordered the design decided after several prototypes were built, to add in a few features, or changed a few safety parameters.
Simple flaws in thing like the internal structure or musculators could have been a problem.
Here's a good one. They got a bad batch of the 260xl engines, had issues, and decided the engine was reliable enough to use, so the went with the higher weight, not knowing that batch was screwed up.
and one last one for now. Bigger is always better.
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Retry
03/16/14 04:59 PM
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What ghostrider said. Still, it could use some serious improvements.
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Karagin
03/16/14 05:00 PM
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Retry, it works well enough, again, I am not going to min/max the mech, if you want to do that feel free to make your own version fair enough?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/16/14 05:03 PM
70.118.139.48
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Ghostrider, good suggestions, might use all of them and go from there. Thanks for the input.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/16/14 05:03 PM
76.7.238.202
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Simply admitting that it has the problems by design instead of counterarguing that they aren't really problems despite the fact you included the problems by design would be good enough.
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Karagin
03/16/14 05:24 PM
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As you said they were there from the start, didn't hide that, and in fact pointed out some of them, the idea was not to go for a perfect mech Retry, but to go with one that was not bland or min/maxed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/16/14 06:32 PM
66.27.181.1
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maybe I can learn to spell and type one of these days.
If you really want to sell it, use a minor noble, decently known or local warrior hero, or even a member of the design teams family as the test pilot and have an ammo explosion/overheat cause a problem and kill the pilot.
could use this with the redesign, since the ammo has to go by the engine to reach the other torso.
heres an odd one. The manufacturer of the 260 xl was charging an outrageous fee for the engine, and they decided to bump up the weight for a more profitable design.
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