JMInc. Operation Upgrade -- TRO:3025-3050; Heavy

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Retry
04/01/14 07:06 PM
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Range was probably another factor in the determination of an AA mech.

I bet some later optional rules such as quirks and flak ammo came out later to further reflect the roles.
Karagin
04/01/14 11:19 PM
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To me the Rifleman offers both Triple A fire as well as fire support or suppression. It was found a lot in the fire-lances of many of the House armies and knowing how to use it helps keep it alive. So it has other uses then in the role of air defense.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
04/01/14 11:33 PM
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With the exception of more advanced games where you can actually make use of advanced ammo and quirks, the Rifleman is no better than any other design in the fire support role or the AA role. One of my favorite pieces of fluff is when some wing or two of Mechbuster convfighters took out a bunch of mechs guarded by riflemen, including some Riflemen.
Karagin
04/01/14 11:39 PM
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Given that the game existed and worked well enough without silly quirks etc...the mech works well in the role the writers gave it and how folks use it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
04/01/14 11:44 PM
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Every mech works well in the anti-aircraft role if it has any decent long ranged weaponry, given the current rules. I'd rather commision a MAD-3R for my AA needs than 2 Riflemen when playing in a mode where there are no special ammo or quirks that actually allow the Riflemen to be close to impressive. A Warhammer would make a better AA Mech than the Rifleman without flak and quirks, but that's because autocannons suck.
Karagin
04/01/14 11:48 PM
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So Kamikaze what is next on the plate?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
04/02/14 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

So Kamikaze what is next on the plate?



Catapult is next...should be up tomorrow some time.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/02/14 01:08 AM
66.27.181.1

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I would think with pulse weapons out, they would be the ultimate in anti air. Missile boats would be better as well, but they are more like rockets, since they don't all seem to hit.

the Rifleman would have been better if they has like a +1 for anti air bonus.
Retry
04/02/14 01:17 AM
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Clan pulse lasers are stupidly good at AA actually, enough so that the Rifleman IIC looks like something built by a munchkin with a quad LPL array. It almost makes autocannons obsolete (like that's a suprise) in almost every role.

IS pulse lasers lose out in range drastically so it won't work that way for them.
ghostrider
04/02/14 01:21 AM
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they still make great anti air guns, unless they are the small lasers. There is no other problems with range and anti air.

Against ground target is another story.

And don't discount the quad lpl's. Once in range, they tear crap up.
Honestly, I would take the lpl's over acs anyday. The clan versions. Innersphere is too short on range, though that isn't something you can't work around.
Retry
04/02/14 01:40 AM
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When I said "built by a munchkin" I wasn't discounting the quad LPL. On the contrary, it's the inverse.
KamikazeJohnson
04/03/14 12:08 AM
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Catapult CPLT-JM

Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 6,760,325 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,679

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous w/ CASE
Armament:
2 LRM-15s w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 ER Large Laser
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown


================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 4 LT, 4 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 260 13.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT 4.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 179 10.00
Armor Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 24
Center Torso (rear) 12
L/R Torso 15 22
L/R Torso (rear) 8
L/R Arm 10 17
L/R Leg 15 20

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LRM-15 RA 5 3 7.00
Artemis IV FCS RA - 1 1.00
LRM-15 LA 5 3 7.00
Artemis IV FCS LA - 1 1.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
ER Large Laser CT 12 2 5.00
@LRM-15 (Artemis) (16) RT - 2 2.00
@LRM-15 (Artemis) (16) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 1

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 17
4j 3 3 3 0 3 2 Structure: 5
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 2

DESIGN NOTES:
The Catapult...another Archer wannabe, trading a bit of LRM firepower, ammo
supply, and armour for Jump capability. An overall decent machine; a few weak
points, but better than most.


FASA chose the Cataput to be the recipient of an Arrow IV system; my opinion
is that artillery systems belong on tanks, not heavy 'Mechs.


So...weak points to address: light armour, low ammo supply, limited close-range
capability to take best advantage of its jump range.


Strip off the "extra" heat sinks, upgrade to DHS. Endo Steel for a combined
saving of 8 tons. Additional LRM Ammo, Artemis IV for increased average
damage, CASE in both torsos, and then, for increased versatility, replace the
CT Lasers with an ER Large Laser. Finally, Ferro Fibrous Armour provides the
equivalent of more than an extra ton of protection.


The result is a bit of overheat at long range, but manageable. However, I did
come up with a further upgrade using an XL Engine (which I chose to avoid in
the listed version due to the inherent risk). After returning to Standard
armour to free up enough space for the additional Engine crits, remaining
tonnage goes to 2 additional Heat Sinks (solving the overheat problem), a
Medium Pulse Laser in the Head, and another boost to armour.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/03/14 03:42 AM
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The original catapult had four medium lasers in the front torso areas. I would think this is better then the archer that had 2 firing in the rear and 2 front firing ones..

I am surprised you didn't try to upgrade the lrm packs, but went for the erll. The laser does make it a little more durable in a fight.

Maybe remove ferrous fiber and add the xl. upgrade lrms. Think maybe remove erll and use some weight to add armor. if anything left add in some lasers, weither medium or a large one, though some extra ammo doesn't hurt with the larger missile packs.
KamikazeJohnson
04/03/14 11:04 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

The original catapult had four medium lasers in the front torso areas. I would think this is better then the archer that had 2 firing in the rear and 2 front firing ones..

I am surprised you didn't try to upgrade the lrm packs, but went for the erll. The laser does make it a little more durable in a fight.

Maybe remove ferrous fiber and add the xl. upgrade lrms. Think maybe remove erll and use some weight to add armor. if anything left add in some lasers, weither medium or a large one, though some extra ammo doesn't hurt with the larger missile packs.



Not really a big fan of the LRM 20; I find the LRM 15 more efficient in mist cases, unless going for all-out long range. I wanted more versatility, plus twin-LRM 20s are the Archer's thing, no imitators allowed lol. Although on the XL variant, it would certainly be reasonable to drop the ERLL ans a Heat Sink to upgrade the LRMs.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Retry
04/03/14 03:33 PM
72.214.204.166

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Pfft, the Archer wishes it could JJ like a catapult.
Karagin
04/03/14 07:15 PM
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Good job with the Catapult. It has the missing ability to move around and be an asset more then just window dressing.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
04/04/14 09:42 PM
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Crusader CRD-JM

Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 12,203,510 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,355

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 LRM-15s
2 SRM-6s
2 Medium Pulse Lasers
2 Medium Lasers
2 Machine Guns
1 C3 Computer (Slave)
1 TAG
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown


================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 4 LT, 4 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 260 7.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 192 12.00
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 33
Center Torso (rear) 8
L/R Torso 15 24
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 15 21

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LRM-15 RA 5 3 7.00
Machine Gun RA 0 1 0.50
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
LRM-15 LA 5 3 7.00
Machine Gun LA 0 1 0.50
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Medium Pulse Laser RT 4 1 2.00
C3 Computer (Slave) RT 0 1 1.00
Medium Pulse Laser LT 4 1 2.00
TAG LT 0 1 1.00
SRM-6 RL 4 2 3.00
SRM-6 LL 4 2 3.00
@LRM-15 (16) RT - 2 2.00
@LRM-15 (16) LT - 2 2.00
@SRM-6 (30) CT - 2 2.00
@MG (1/2) (100) HD - 1 0.50
Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 14
4 4 4 2 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: C3S, TAG, CASE, MHQ1, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, SRM 1/1/0, LRM 1/1/1, IF 1

DESIGN NOTES:
The Crusader is an example of a 'Mech that tries to do everything. By trying
to be dominating at both long-range and short-range, it ends up with poor heat
control and limited staying power, without being a truly dominating presence at
any range.

The FASA upgrade goes a little overkill with DHS, and monkeys with the short
range stuff in order to add AMS and CASE. A somewhat inelegant uprade.

I felt in order to really become anything, the Crusader needed all the spare
tonnage I could muster, so I saved 9.5 tons with Endo Steel and XL Engine; what
surprised me was how little that got me. An additional 3 tons of ammo (2 LRM,
1 SRM) and CASE in both side torsos were essential, as was the upgrade to DHS
for heat control. I moved the MG ammo to the head (reduced to 1/2 ton) to make
room in the CT for the extra ton of SRM ammo, leaving 4 crits and 6 tons. With
limited options due to space, I added 2 Medium Pulse Lasers, and gave it the
ability to "call down the thunder" with both TAG and a C3 Slave unit.

A surprisingly difficult upgrade, owing to the sheer number of minor issues
that needed to be addressed.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/04/14 10:01 PM
66.27.181.155

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One issue that you may overlooked with the ammo distribution. Adding it into the center torso kind of reduces the case in the other torsos. The head is self explanitory.

Might have put tag or c3 in head, or center torso.

Still a nice upgrade.
KamikazeJohnson
04/04/14 10:08 PM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

One issue that you may overlooked with the ammo distribution. Adding it into the center torso kind of reduces the case in the other torsos. The head is self explanitory.

Might have put tag or c3 in head, or center torso.

Still a nice upgrade.



The original had the SRM and MG ammo in the CT, so I left it there. The SRM ammo could certainly be moved to the side torsos, and something else put in the CT.

The Head is the least likely place to get a crit, so it's (mechanically speaking) the safest place for ammo. Plus I didn't want to spoil the Crusader's beautiful symmetry
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
04/04/14 10:14 PM
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Overall a much better fire support mech and one that offers more use.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
04/04/14 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Overall a much better fire support mech and one that offers more use.



Thanks. I wanted to upgrade to LRM 20s, but that pretty much let me increase ammo supply and add CASE, and that was it.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
04/04/14 10:24 PM
70.118.139.48

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The Crusader is a tough one to tinker with. Some of the heavier mechs are not easy to make changes too and still get decent outcomes. Yet here you managed to reach a good middle ground.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
04/05/14 11:30 AM
50.72.218.68

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Ok, I did two versions of this one: the first is a direct upgrade in accordance with my restrictions for the project; the second is what the JagerMech deserves.

JagerMech JM6-JM

Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 11,408,375 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,125

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 Ultra AC/5s
2 Medium Lasers
2 Autocannon/2s
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 260 7.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 168 10.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 24
Center Torso (rear) 7
L/R Torso 15 21
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 10 16
L/R Leg 15 21

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Autocannon/2 RA 1 1 6.00
Ultra AC/5 RA 1 5 9.00
Autocannon/2 LA 1 1 6.00
Ultra AC/5 LA 1 5 9.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
@Ultra AC/5 (40) RT - 2 2.00
@Ultra AC/5 (40) LT - 2 2.00
@AC/2 (45) CT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 10

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 6 Points: 11
4 3 3 2 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JagerMech JM6-JM(1)

Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 11,895,125 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,701

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
2 Gauss Rifles
2 Medium Lasers
1 C3 Computer (Slave)
1 Anti-Missile System
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 260 7.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 160 10.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 25
Center Torso (rear) 6
L/R Torso 15 21
L/R Torso (rear) 5
L/R Arm 10 15
L/R Leg 15 19

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle RA 1 7 15.00
Gauss Rifle LA 1 7 15.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
Anti-Missile System CT 1 1 0.50
C3 Computer (Slave) HD 0 1 1.00
@Gauss Rifle (16) RT - 2 2.00
@Gauss Rifle (16) LT - 2 2.00
@Anti-Missile System (12) CT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 8

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 5 Points: 17
4 4 4 3 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: C3S, AMS, MHQ1, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

DESIGN NOTES:
The first version is fairly similar to the TRO:3050 version, using Endo Steel and XL Engine to free up as much tonnage as possible, upgrading the AC/5s to UAC/5s, increasing the ammo accordingly, adding CASE, and using remaining tonnage for a much-needed armour boost.

The second is a bit more radical. The four Autocannons are replaced with a pair of Gauss Rifles, finally giving it significant firepower. A C3 Slave unit allows it to make the most of the massive weapons, while a AMS and 4 additional tons of armour provide increased protection.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/05/14 01:20 PM
66.27.181.155

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wow. a mech that doesn't need dhs.
I agree the second is a massive upgrade that makes the mech worth using.
Karagin
04/05/14 06:57 PM
70.118.139.48

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Again, this falls into the pattern of the first one is the one sent out to fill the gap till the second one can come off the drawing boards and in to production. Well done on both.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
04/06/14 01:40 PM
172.56.17.206

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I know that this does not go with the time era but I would put in two light gauss rifles, four extended range medium lasers, up the armor three tons, and add one more ton of ammo.

I am wondering if you will do something like I did with my Awesome. 320 XL for 4/6 mov, 21 DHS, and four standard PPCs.

What moves 65 kph and has 21 DHS to keep four PPCs cold? I don't know but I don't want to stick around to find out!
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!


Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (04/06/14 01:42 PM)
ghostrider
04/06/14 04:46 PM
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you could just put up the stats yourself donkey.

who knows, you might just get a comic after yours idea.
KamikazeJohnson
04/06/14 06:22 PM
50.72.218.68

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Looks like no one really cares to discuss much about the JagerMech. Can't say I'm surprised...

Up next is the biggest challenge of the entire project: my trusty, beloved Thunderbolt.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
04/06/14 06:25 PM
70.118.139.48

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Not much else to say you did a major improvement on it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
04/06/14 07:16 PM
66.27.181.155

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what is it you want us to say? most ac 2's bite the big one? They are mainly for trying to crit units before they can get into firing range?

Honestly, I never really liked the original jagermech. ac 2's and 5's were not my thing. I prefer ppcs for main range weapons because you can potshot with them and not worry about running out of ammo.
The gauss rifle one makes them worth looking at again. I would rather use a rifleman over a jagermech any day.

The catapult and crusader are much better as well, though I hate the missile tables.
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