JMInc. Operation Upgrade -- TRO:3025-3050; Heavy

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KamikazeJohnson
04/06/14 10:04 PM
24.114.41.142

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

what is it you want us to say? most ac 2's bite the big one? They are mainly for trying to crit units before they can get into firing range?

Honestly, I never really liked the original jagermech. ac 2's and 5's were not my thing. I prefer ppcs for main range weapons because you can potshot with them and not worry about running out of ammo.
The gauss rifle one makes them worth looking at again. I would rather use a rifleman over a jagermech any day.

The catapult and crusader are much better as well, though I hate the missile tables.



That's why I wasn't surprised at the lack of discussion lol.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
KamikazeJohnson
04/08/14 12:11 PM
50.72.218.68

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Thunderbolt TDR-JM

Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 11,975,810 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,440

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
1 LRM-15 w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 ER Large Laser
1 Large Pulse Laser
3 Medium Pulse Lasers
1 Streak SRM-2
3 Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown


================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 LT, 2 LA, 5 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 260 7.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 12(24) 2.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 LA
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 30
Center Torso (rear) 11
L/R Torso 15 24
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 15 29

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER Large Laser RA 12 2 5.00
Machine Gun RA 0 1 0.50
2 Machine Guns LA 0 2 1.00
Streak SRM-2 RT 2 1 1.50
LRM-15 RT 5 3 7.00
Artemis IV FCS RT - 1 1.00
3 Medium Pulse Lasers LT 12 3 6.00
Large Pulse Laser CT 10 2 7.00
@MG (1/2) (100) LA - 1 0.50
@Streak SRM-2 (50) RT - 1 1.00
@LRM-15 (Artemis) (16) RT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 14
4 4 4 2 0 3 2 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1

DESIGN NOTES
This was beyond a doubt the toughest upgrade for me...I started about 5 or 6
times, only to scrap it and start over. What can I say, IMO, the original
TDR-5S was perfection for the 3025 period, and trying to improve on it while
maintaining the spirit and presence of the original

I started off with the obvious upgrades: Endo Steel, DHS, drop half of the MG
ammo, upgrade the Large Laser to ER, upgrade the SRM to a Streak, add Artemis
to the LRM. I also shifted the LRM ammo to the side torso (I don't like moving
things around on an Upgrade, but sometimes its necessary) and protected both
sides with CASE. I toyed with upgrading the LRM to a 20, adding additional
Heat Sinks, but nothing really seemed satisfactory; even worse, I kept running
into an embarrassing shortage of crit space which kept limiting my options.
Finally, I thought carefully about how I personally use the Thunderbolt most of
the time, and that gave me what I needed. A Large Pulse Laser to take over
from the ER at close range for a bit more damage at bit less heat. With only a
single item using up the available tonnage, I had enough space to squeeze on
Ferro Fibrous Armour, saving just enough to keep all my other modifications.

I still wasn't completely satisfied with the result...I probably would have
been if it had been anything other than the T-Bolt, but the heat balance made
me go back for a second look before finalizing and posting it. Reluctantly, I
dropped the FF for an XL Engine, just to see how it would turn out. Two
additional DHS, upgrade the Medium Lasers to Pulse to eat up tonnage without
using crits, and done.

As with the original, the key to getting the most out of this Thunderbolt is
Balance. At long range, the ERLL and the LRM work well together. At range 10,
the LPL can be added to the mix, as long as the heat is managed carefully. At
range 6, the set of Pulse Lasers provide both punch and accuracy, and the LPL's
location in the CT allow the 'Mech to punch without sacrificing the firepower
of its primary weapon. Not sure if the extra heat control is worth the
vulnerability of the XL Engine, but it definitely makes it more comfortable to
use.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/08/14 06:51 PM
66.27.181.155

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suggestions..
maybe add a second streak.
a second lrm launcher and ammo
change over to ppc.


You may have to avoid es in the larger mechs. the crits will play a big part coming up.
I do like the medium pulse lasers. For some reason, I didn't like them on the thunderbolt. Probably because it overheats the mech in close range. I didn't like to let the large laser cool.
KamikazeJohnson
04/08/14 07:42 PM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

suggestions..
maybe add a second streak.


Something I considered, but I was already pretty close to something else I already did but haven't posted yet. I probably would have gone with a larger Streak if they were available for the time period.

Quote:
a second lrm launcher and ammo


Also considered it. Considered the similarity to my Catapult. Considered the frightening amount of ammo already carried by this design. That was one of my many discarded attempts

Quote:
change over to ppc.


PPC? We don't need no stinkin' PPC!!!

Sorry, personal preference here...a T-Bolt has a Large Laser. Plus, I've found most PPC mods cause problems with the heat balance, and besides, I've always been successful brawling with a T-Bolt, and the LL is much better for that. Like I said, personal preference; I know a lot of people swear by their PPC mods. I just swear at them...

Quote:
You may have to avoid es in the larger mechs. the crits will play a big part coming up.
I do like the medium pulse lasers. For some reason, I didn't like them on the thunderbolt. Probably because it overheats the mech in close range. I didn't like to let the large laser cool.



I'll probably be skipping the XL Engine more than the ES where I can...those 6 crits make a big difference, and add so much risk. ES gets to be a problem mainly when the 'Mech uses lots of extra DHS...if I can be careful with heat balance, I can avoid that on most of the upcoming designs. Pretty sure I won't be able to ES the Awesome...

Something I did consider on the Thunderbolt though...drop the ES, keep the Standard MLs, add TSM. A Thunderbolt will always overheat if used to full potential; a TSM version provides a nasty surprise when it's time to get in close. Movement of 5/8, a 26-point kick or 2 13-point punches. Yummy.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/08/14 09:15 PM
66.27.181.155

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wow. you mean you would punch with a tsm thuderbolt?
guess you might use the ppc with that one.

I haven't dealt too much with innersphere xl so losing a mech to the loss of a torso hasn't been that big with me. More then a few of the games I have played were use whatever was available and go at it. I can see where that is an issue.

with your tsm one, I would suggest dropping the streak. The pulse lasers in close range would be an enormous help. Also keep your heat up with them as well. You might have to pull a sink off line when not running to keep it there. The arm laser would be a poor choice if punching, and no matter what anyone says 2 chances to take the head off a mech, is definately worth avoiding a kick.
Karagin
04/08/14 10:32 PM
70.118.139.48

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Well done, hard to really make any suggestion that you haven't already gone over.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
04/09/14 01:16 AM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The arm laser would be a poor choice if punching,


That's why I put the LPL in the torso...the ERLL won't be fired at close-range anyway.

Quote:
and no matter what anyone says 2 chances to take the head off a mech, is definately worth avoiding a kick.


Depends on what you're kicking. 11/36 chance of taking the head off, IF both punches hit. Kick has a better chance of hitting, plus a 100% chance of taking the leg of a lightly-armoured enemy if it hits. I'd puncch an Atlas, but I'd kick most Mediums.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
KamikazeJohnson
04/09/14 01:18 AM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Well done, hard to really make any suggestion that you haven't already gone over.



Thanks. Like I said, I put a lot of thought into this one.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/09/14 01:54 AM
66.27.181.155

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11/36? I think you got the wrong tables there. A punch is 1 in 6 providing there is not terrain differences, like punching the legs being on a lower terrain.
Also with a warmed up tsm, you would remove the head of any mech with a 13 point punch. 9 armor and 3 internal.
Now some of the special armors might change that, but that is crap best left for other games.
KamikazeJohnson
04/09/14 02:09 AM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

11/36? I think you got the wrong tables there. A punch is 1 in 6 providing there is not terrain differences, like punching the legs being on a lower terrain.
Also with a warmed up tsm, you would remove the head of any mech with a 13 point punch. 9 armor and 3 internal.
Now some of the special armors might change that, but that is crap best left for other games.



11/36 is the chance of hitting the head with At Least 1 of 2 punches, assuming both hit.

(1,6), (2,6), (3,6), (4,6), (5,6), (6,6), (6,5), (6,4), (6,3), (6,2), (6,1) out of 36 possible combinations of 2 hits. Works out to about 30.5%, a bit less than 1/3. Good deal, but if I'm facing a 'Mech with less than 26 total on each leg, Armour and Internal combined after considering existing damage, that kick removes the leg and (mostly) disables the 'Mech, regardless which leg gets hit. And kicks have a better To-Hit number than punches. I'd take the better chance of disabling over the smaller chance of eliminating.

OTOH, if the target has 24 Armour and 16 Internal in a leg, no damage, I'd probably punch...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/09/14 05:31 AM
66.27.181.155

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24 armor, 16 internal?
Would think 10 armor with 16 internal if you are trying to remove the leg.
Any combination leading up to 26 points total.

I could see where a punch might not be a good idea, like a missile boat with a full load of ammo.

Still.
KamikazeJohnson
04/09/14 11:20 AM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

24 armor, 16 internal?
Would think 10 armor with 16 internal if you are trying to remove the leg.
Any combination leading up to 26 points total.



That's what I said, or at least what I meant to say. 10 armour, 16 internal, I kick. 24 armour, 16 internal, I probably punch.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
KamikazeJohnson
04/12/14 11:08 AM
50.72.218.68

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Archer ARC-JM

Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 13,108,473 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,484

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
5 Medium Lasers
12 LRM-5s
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 107 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 5 LA, 5 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 280 8.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 11(22) 1.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 216 13.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 34
Center Torso (rear) 9
L/R Torso 15 24
L/R Torso (rear) 6
L/R Arm 11 22
L/R Leg 15 30

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
2 LRM-5s RA 4 2 4.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
2 LRM-5s LA 4 2 4.00
4 LRM-5s RT 8 4 8.00
4 LRM-5s LT 8 4 8.00
2 (R) Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
Medium Laser HD 3 1 1.00
@LRM-5 (96) RT - 4 4.00
@LRM-5 (96) LT - 4 4.00
Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 15
4 3 4 3 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, LRM 1/3/3, IF 3

DESIGN NOTES:
Took me a while to decide what to do with the Archer; this one is all about the
long-range firepower, so I didn't want to spend too much on the close-range
stuff. The obvious upgrade is using Endo Steel and DHS, adding Artemis IV and
CASE, which is decent I guess, but hardly dominating on the 3050 battlefield.

The risk of an XL Engine seemed minimal, as the Archer's place is on the edge
of the battle where it shouldn't be taking massive return fire, so saved an
additional 8 tons, but what should I do with them? I considered ECM, C3
Master, close range weapons, additional ammo. I also considered dropping the
Artemis to add an additional LRM launcher, but nothing seemed to work out
right.

I thought back to what I did with the Whitworth; with the improved heat control
of DHS, the Archer could swap the LRM racks for a mass of smaller launchers.
Using Endo Steel and XL Engine, I was able to replace each LRM 20 with 4 LRM
5s, add 2 additional LRM 5s in each arm, and double the ammo supply, bringing
it up to 16 shots per launcher. CASE in both sides of the torso, an extra
Medium Laser in the Head, one additional DHS, and max the Leg armour.

Average firepower is increased by 50%, heat control is not perfect but greatly
improved, and the large number of launchers allows for great flexibility in
terms of specialty ammo use.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/12/14 12:09 PM
24.30.142.80

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someone wanted to have specialized ammo?
Definitely gives the archer more options. Also save some ammo trying to take out little units like jeeps.
Well the upgrade does make it a fire support mech.
Wall of missiles comes to mind.
The third forward firing laser is a nice addition.
The multiple launchers will help at shorter ranges as well. More to shoot, more likely to hit.
Retry
04/12/14 12:11 PM
72.214.204.166

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Macross missile massacre to the max, this one.
Karagin
04/12/14 12:43 PM
70.118.139.48

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Well designed and well laid out. You have given the mech a lot of options and the over all changes make it well worth the C-bills spent.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
04/13/14 10:34 PM
70.118.139.48

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So the anticipation is killing me...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
04/13/14 10:50 PM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
Karagin writes:

So the anticipation is killing me...



Grasshopper is next...back when you posted your upgrade, I whipped up a really nice version as well...and the didn't save it. Trying to redo it now. Although I'm pretty sure I used a TC on it, so it doesn't fit my timeline anyway...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
04/13/14 11:06 PM
70.118.139.48

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Looking forward to it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
04/14/14 12:15 AM
24.30.142.80

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make him wait another day and skip it
KamikazeJohnson
04/14/14 11:48 AM
50.72.218.68

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Grasshopper GHR-JM

Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 9,404,173 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,660

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
2 ER Large Lasers
4 Medium Lasers
2 LRM-5s
1 C3 Computer (Master)
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown


================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 107 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 6 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 280 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 4.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 13(26) 3.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 RT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 13
L/R Torso 15 20
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 11 22
L/R Leg 15 26

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
ER Large Laser RA 12 2 5.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
LRM-5 RT 2 1 2.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
C3 Computer (Master) LT 0 5 5.00
ER Large Laser CT 12 2 5.00
LRM-5 HD 2 1 2.00
@LRM-5 (24) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 6

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 17
4j 3 3 2 0 3 2 Structure: 6
Special Abilities: C3M, TAG, CASE, MHQ5, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

DESIGN NOTES:
The Grasshopper: Bronze medal winner for Worst TRO:3025 Upgrade. Sure, the ER
Large Laser and the AMS are nice, but the rest of the modifications are a
distinct downgrade: drop the LRM and 2 of the MLs for a Streak SRM 2 and an
AMS? I'll stick with the original.

To make something nice out of a 'Mech like the Grasshopper, DHS are a must,
directly saving 11 tons. Endo Steel saves 3.5 more, leaving an astounding 14.5
tons to work with.

I first addressed the Grasshopper's relatively light long-range firepower by
adding a second ER Large Laser. Three additional DHS keep things cool. After
extensive thought, I decided to make the best use of the Grasshopper's mobility
by adding a C3 Master computer. With 2 tons left, I added a second LRM 5 to
fill out the long-range.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/14/14 06:20 PM
24.30.142.80

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I like the c3 master. Finally something that has it.

I am surprised you went with dual lrm 5s instead of a single 10.

One suggestion might be with the c3 master, it would be more standoffish, so maybe drop a medium or two and add another lrm 5 launcher. Though that would be pushing the heat some for long range.
Another would be following same lines, but having the second erll in the other arm. I could see this unit behind things and need the extra firing arcs of the arm.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
04/14/14 07:48 PM
208.54.38.150

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Well that two LRM-5 take a ton less, you have two chances to hit, you can fire off two types of special ammo at the same time, I can see a big advantage to have two LRM-5s over a LRM-10.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
KamikazeJohnson
04/14/14 08:25 PM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey writes:

Well that two LRM-5 take a ton less, you have two chances to hit, you can fire off two types of special ammo at the same time, I can see a big advantage to have two LRM-5s over a LRM-10.



The special ammo flexibility isn't an issue with only one ton of ammo on board. The second LRM was an afterthought, seemed like the most convenient way f using up 2 tons, since close-range heat was already tradeoff between the Medium and Large Lasers. I couldn't upgrade to an LRM 10 without moving it from its original location, and spending an extra ton as mentioned above.

Also, the two LRM 5s generate 1 more heat than a single LRM 10, but I can help moderate the heat by firing only 1.

Another possibility for this one, since it can easily run hot: I have exactly enough space for TSM; the Grasshopper, in my experience, isn't known as a brawler, but the speed boost could definitely come in handy.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
04/14/14 08:54 PM
24.30.142.80

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I would advise against the brawler, unless you remove the master and add in a few short range things to cover for it since it does carry the master c3. Just a suggestion.

I like the extra lrm 5, and as I said, maybe add a third one. It would make it better for being the lance leader while supporting the unit.
KamikazeJohnson
04/14/14 09:12 PM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

I would advise against the brawler, unless you remove the master and add in a few short range things to cover for it since it does carry the master c3. Just a suggestion.

I like the extra lrm 5, and as I said, maybe add a third one. It would make it better for being the lance leader while supporting the unit.



My original plan for this one included a Targeting Computer, but since that's not available yet, I went with the C3 as an easy switch. With the C3 I kind od see it as the Command unit of a Garrison Lance or something like that...the Jump Jets make it ideal for that kind of work.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
04/14/14 09:36 PM
70.118.139.48

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I like it, I can see it working with the one upgrade I came up with, making for a nice pairing. Well done!
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
04/17/14 10:43 PM
70.118.139.48

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So the Warhammer is next?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
04/17/14 10:49 PM
50.72.218.68

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Quote:
Karagin writes:

So the Warhammer is next?



Yup. Still working through a couple different ideas. The Orion is all ready to go, but you'll have to wait for that one
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
04/17/14 10:55 PM
70.118.139.48

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Ok..
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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