Retry
04/21/14 09:14 PM
76.7.236.208
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Well... both arguments remain valid then.
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ghostrider
04/21/14 09:23 PM
24.30.142.80
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The issues with endo steel could be alot more then just heat, mix, pour, cool.
Getting the ores to the facility and removing them might be issues, especially if they have little room for stockpiles. Another would be fuel and heating though fusion engines could help here.
It may require the units being made have a long cool down time to make sure they units do not seperate, or may need a flash freeze to do the same.
Special ingrediants may be required for it as well.
They protection of the stations is a must as well, and that also includes commandos on space suits.
Now if you need workers to make it, you have to have regular air as well as a few other commodities. Restroom and food being 2 biggies.
I agree with not just xl engines being a little expensive but all of them. ICE should be drastically lower, and we will leave out lighter. Normal fusion engines should be less costly, because any smart move would be to have more factories putting out what is normally used. The governements would only allow so much monopoly if it threatened their taxes. More factories, more units can be made at a time.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/21/14 09:39 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The alpha strike. People just love to use that as often as they can. I would think a few less heatsinks in some mechs and a few more weapons designed for other ranges might be a better unit.
The strike should be a last resort, not the opening salvo. Maybe omega strike would be a better term.
As you said you tend to keep the heat with you from one.
I know. I try to use it myself alot.
Back before DHS, heat balance was a different story...especially when PPCs were in use, it was usually highly inefficient to have enough Heat Sinks to cover both long and short-range fire. Unless a 'Mech was a specialist (Grasshopper comes to mind) you would typically have a choice of weapon combinations to choose from, based on range brackets, ammo use, hit probability, and heat. Or, in a desperate gamble, you could fire off everything, creating a heay spike of 6-14 points, sometimes more, in the hope that you'd do enough damage in one turn to cripple an enemy. In some cases, you'd have 2-3 times your sustainable firepower in that one turn, at thr risk of shutdown or worse.
DHS make a big difference, as most 'Mechs below 60 tons can fit all their firepower into the default 20 heat dissipation. Even heavier 'Mechs can often use their full firepower with minimal heat buildip, still without adding additional DHS. But if a design features high-heat Primary weapons (like dual ERPPCs, you can still find yourself in a position similar to 3025-era heavies: mounting enough DHS to power your Primaries leaves you with limites tonnage and crit space to also power your Secondaries. So (IMHO), unless a 'Mech is designed to fight only at one range, you're usually best off to have two "sets" of weapons, and enough DHS to power one or the other. Generally gives you more effective firepower at any range, fallback weapons if you lose an arm, for example. Plus you have the ability, if your back is against the wall, to double your damage for a turn and pray you survive.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
04/21/14 09:45 PM
24.30.142.80
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made a 100 tonner that had dual 20s with dual ppcs. The ammo you carry takes out you mech if it goes off. Yeah. I know the dangers of high heat.
Upgraded it with clan tech to ultra 20's. Still pushing heat without using both as once, though the ultra fire rate was the issue with just the 20's.
Still people try to cover the heat and in some cases it would be better to volley fire an have some options. The tsm carrying mechs come to mind here. A few could use streaks in close range to help deal with the heat. I have yet to have them lock more then 2 rounds in a row.
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Retry
04/21/14 09:55 PM
76.7.236.208
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Alpha strikes make little sense with some weapon combinations. For example, medium lasers and LRMs. They cover their own range brackets well, but neither can fire very well into the other's brackets well. The Catapults pull this off well. After out of LRM ammo, the Catapult has enough foward firing lasers to make a good energy boat later in the game when most of the skirmishers are gone.
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Karagin
04/21/14 10:04 PM
70.118.139.48
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Alpha strikes only make sense in the computer games not the board game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
04/21/14 10:06 PM
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That's a bit generalized.
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ghostrider
04/21/14 10:06 PM
24.30.142.80
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well there are a few mechs that it makes sense.
The longbow having nothing but lrms.
The jenner is another one.
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Karagin
04/21/14 10:18 PM
70.118.139.48
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No it's not generalized. No one was building munchkin alpha mechs in mass until the computer games took off in popularity.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
04/21/14 10:30 PM
76.7.236.208
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"Alpha Strikes ONLY make sense in the computer games not the board game".
You can dissect the statement further to get:
"Alpha Strikes NEVER make sense on the board game".
This is a generalization where you say alpha strikes never make sense. Technically speaking, an Alpha Strike is using all your weapons in an attack. I only need a single counterargument to prove that the generalization is not true all the time...
Urbies.
Urbies can fire their entire arsenal and never build up heat. According to the generalization this should make no sense because alpha strikes should never make sense on the board game. Since this situation under the generalization and goes against it, the generalization is not consistent.
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Karagin
04/21/14 10:38 PM
70.118.139.48
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The Urban mech has an autocanon and not much else so yes it can pull it off, one mech or a couple doing it was never the issue, now blah that is all you see...all because the computer game made it popular and the rules allow. Then again the rules allow a lot of things, doesn't mean it needs to be done, but if min/maxing and winning only is the playing style that is being looked for...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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LegatusDavoke
04/21/14 10:44 PM
99.101.200.202
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I build my mechs around heat dissipation more out of a paranoia of losing MP or blowing my ammo if i get flamered, inferno'd, need to walk through a flaming hex, get firebombed, etc. I'd much rather be able to push all my damage out all the time, than have to cut back.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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Retry
04/21/14 10:47 PM
76.7.236.208
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*sigh*
Just because a rule allows something to be done, and it doesn't need to be done, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
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LegatusDavoke
04/21/14 10:50 PM
99.101.200.202
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Well, its served me well so far. Never had an auto-shutdown, never had ammo blow, kill enemies at a quick pace, and have never gone above 8 points on the heat scale. The last one almost doesn't count because i took two Plasma Rifle hits when i went 1 point over on the heat scale. But yeah. <.<
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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Karagin
04/21/14 10:53 PM
70.118.139.48
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Each to their own on things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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LegatusDavoke
04/21/14 10:55 PM
99.101.200.202
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Now as far as actual weapon systems go, I always layer my firepower to a general format of very long/long/medium/short, which comes in handy when selecting a group for scenarios.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
04/22/14 05:32 PM
208.54.85.197
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I updated my design
I dropped a Medium Laser for another ton of LGR ammo.
If using fractional accounting I added 1/4 ton of LGR ammo. If you don't use it drip one crit and four shots from the LGR
Hunter
Equipment Mass 75
Internal Structure: -Endo Steel 3.75t
Engine: 300
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4
Heat Sinks: 10 (20) Double
Gyro: 1.5 XL
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: Standard 231 14.5t
Internal Armor/Armor
Head 3/9
Center Torso 23/35
Center Torso(rear) -/11
R/L Torso 16/25
R/L Torso(rear) -7
R/L Arm 12/24
R/L Leg 16/32
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Light Gauss rifle LA 5 12
Targeting Computer LGR LA 3 3
LGR ammo (36) LT 3* 2.25*
2 Medium Lasers LT 2 2
4 Medium Lasers RT 4 4
Extended Range Large Laser RA 2 5
Cost 8,477,500
I would have given it an XL engine but you said cost is a factor
The mech is built around its Light Gauss Rifle as such the weapon was given a targeting computer to increase its effectiveness.
An Extended Range Large Laser was installed to help when the light gauss rifle ammo was getting low and a long range weapon was needed .
To insure that it was not under armed if things got close and personal six Medium Lasers where added .
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
04/22/14 06:38 PM
71.47.91.0
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Both are made in space. The alloys that are made separate in gravity.
Both? Endo-steel is the only canon item noted as requiring zero-gravity for manufacturing.
Quote:
Which would logically mean it is hard to fix, since I doubt the metals used in it would melt at the same temperature, and would seperate as it was being fixed.
Nitpicking: Metallurgical segregation is not just different melting points, but also compatibility of the different elements. Some metals won't mix (like oil and water) despite having the similar melting points.
On topic: repairing alloys that have chemical segregation problems is not always impossible, but is usually at least a headache. The work done to repair single crystal, heavily-alloyed, aligned-crystal superalloys for jet engine turbine blades is magnificent metallurgy. Those alloys have 10 to 15 deliberate alloying elements and need to control another 10 to 15 impurities that would mess up their properties. Repairing a melted or sheared-off turbine blade tip involves getting the replacement material to match the atomic alignment of the original blade, but not piling in so much heat that you alter the crystalline geometry of the remaining blade material (or, worse, melt some of the original blade). And the repair can't contaminate the blade with, say, carbon or hydrogen from common heat sources like a welding torch.
The cool thing about that is that aftermarket jet engine repair shops accomplish all that with blue collar workers at about 1/3 to 1/4 the price of the original equipment manufacturers. Folks like Pratt & Whitney and GE hate third party blade repair shops because that competition eats their profit margin alive, but what airline wants to spend $1500 on a new turbine blade from GE when Sulzer can repair one to FAA standards for $300 or $400?
I digress. My point is that while the initial endo-steel manufacturing might require exotic conditions, but repair in less exotic environments isn't out of the question.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/22/14 11:36 PM
24.30.142.80
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yeah, in the next post I had, I realized I had made a mistake about the ferrous fiber.
I misread the entry when it came out sooo many years ago.
Now as for costs, when has the original manufacturer not cost 3 to 4 times what the repair shop does?
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