Retry
07/26/14 07:03 PM
76.7.224.205
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----
Ares II Medium Tank V1
Clan experimental
45 tons
BV: 1,273
Cost: 1,827,700 C-bills
Movement: 5/8 (Wheeled)
Engine: 205
Internal: 25
Armor: 192 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
--------------------------------------
Front 5 65
Right 5 30
Left 5 30
Rear 5 25
Turret 5 42
Weapon Loc Heat
----------------------------------------
ER Large Laser TU 12
Streak SRM 6 TU 4
Streak SRM 6 TU 4
Ammo Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
Streak SRM 6 Ammo BD 15
Streak SRM 6 Ammo BD 15
Equipment Loc
----------------------------------
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ghostrider
07/26/14 09:31 PM
24.30.141.170
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Is this a experimental loadout for the ares?
Or did you not know the clans had an ares tank?
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Karagin
07/26/14 10:26 PM
70.118.139.48
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I say drop the ER Large Laser for a Lg. Pulse Laser and use the extra two tons gained for something else vs. losing them to heat sinks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
07/27/14 09:42 AM
76.7.224.205
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It's a somewhat modified form of the Ares Medium Tank, with having a disposable yet durable tank(as opposed to the original Ares, which was disposable because it had to be with it's pitiful armor). 5 tons heavier and a change to a wheeled system allowed the engine size to stay almost the same, which can be fluffed in as a 200 engine using experimental settings... maybe?
So it's got an ERLL like the original, and the two missile pods on each side, and immensely improve the armor, and you got the Ares II. Similar tank to the Ares but more durable and for less cost.
Exchanging an ERLL for a LPL wouldn't gain any extra tons. The clan LPL is 6 tons, and the ERLL is 4 tons. It would make for an ideal Ares II V2 though, considering clan tank pilots are... bad.
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Karagin
07/27/14 10:07 AM
70.118.139.48
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Heat issue Retry, that is the point, yet again, I am pointing out to you.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/27/14 10:10 AM
70.118.139.48
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The Clan ER Large Lasers builds up 12 heat, that is two heat sinks you have to pay for. Thus you would gain BACK the two tons lost to the heat sinks by switching to a Large Pulse Laser. And using FA rules you would then be able to add more armor to read or turret of the tank with over all weight given back and still have enough left for .04 of cargo space for the crew's personal gear etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
07/27/14 11:58 AM
76.7.224.205
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6 ton LPL + 0 tons SHS = 6 tons weight
4 ton ERLL + 2 tons SHS = 6 tons weight
No tons are gained back. Or, another way to look at it, you save on the SHS front, but get penalized on the actual gun weight, so you net zero gained tons.
Actually, it's worse than gaining nothing. You'll gain a little bit of weight too.
The turret equipment takes up a perfect 10 tons as well, 4 ERLL+2x3 SSRM6=10
With 10 tons of equipment, the turret mechanism weighs 1 ton.
A LPL would bump the turret equipment weight up to 12 tons, 6 LPL+2x3 SSRM6=12
With 12 tons of equipment, the turret mechanism weighs 1.5 tons.
You not only gain nothing tonnage wise from a LPL in this scenario, you would LOSE a half ton for the Ares II
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Karagin
07/27/14 02:30 PM
70.118.139.48
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Really?
Code: BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Mamemartian 2
Tech: Clan / 3060
Config: Wheeled Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 45 tons
Power Plant: 205 Fusion
Cruise Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 Large Pulse Laser
2 Streak SRM 6s
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Mamemartian 2
Mass: 45 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 25 pts Standard 0 4.50
Engine: 205 Fusion 0 8.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 4.25
Cruise MP: 5
Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.25
Crew: 3 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 1.20
Armor Factor: 197 pts Ferro-Fibrous 1 10.26
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 5 65
Left / Right Sides: 5 30/30
Rear: 5 30
Turret: 5 42
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Large Pulse Laser Turret 10 1 6.00
2 Streak SRM 6s Turret 0 30 3 8.00
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 0 .00
Cargo Bay Capacity Body 1 .04
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 6 45.00
Items & Tons Left: 8 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 1,796,707 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,309 (old BV = 918)
Cost per BV: 1,372.58
Weapon Value: 1,285 / 1,049 (Ratio = .98 / .80)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 30; MRDmg = 17; LRDmg = 6
BattleForce2: MP: 5W, Armor/Structure: 0 / 7
Damage PB/M/L: 4/4/1, Overheat: 0
Class: GM; Point Value: 13
Specials: tran0
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/27/14 02:31 PM
70.118.139.48
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Think you may want to rework your tank Retry....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
07/27/14 07:33 PM
108.214.144.84
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Now try it without fractional accounting and watch the basic arithmetic work it's magic.
Even with it you STILL lost some tonnage, .2 tons to be exact. There is no magical 2 tons saving at work in the best of circumstances.
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Karagin
07/27/14 08:25 PM
70.118.139.48
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It worked with the FA and thus it makes for a better tank far better then your over sinked version. The point Retry was to show you it works, if you don't like it don't use it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
07/27/14 08:54 PM
108.214.144.84
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If I wanted to use FA I would. Since using the system gives you a free half ton, in essence, comparing a non FA to a FA is not fair.
If I was to use FA I would strip a half ton of SRM ammo for a targeting computer.
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Karagin
07/27/14 08:55 PM
70.118.139.48
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Which is all fine and great. Point was proven. Time to move on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
07/27/14 09:04 PM
108.214.144.84
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The "point" was that "switching to the LPL would free up 2 tons". And that was proven to be more than false.
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Karagin
07/27/14 09:47 PM
70.118.139.48
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It freed up enough to allow the tank to gain armor and to lower it's heat cost. Which overall is a better thing vs the waste of the ER LL. Now if you would post the stats for the one you mentioned with the Targeting computer that would be interesting to see.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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GiovanniBlasini
07/27/14 10:44 PM
75.85.176.204
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
It freed up enough to allow the tank to gain armor and to lower it's heat cost. Which overall is a better thing vs the waste of the ER LL. Now if you would post the stats for the one you mentioned with the Targeting computer that would be interesting to see.
Switching to a LPL freed up exactly -0.20 tons on your tank (yes, that's a negative number).
Switching to fractional accounting and keeping the ER LL would allow for another 4.6 armor points.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Karagin
07/27/14 11:15 PM
70.118.139.48
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I switched to FA, dropped the ER and went to a Pulse laser and gained armor, check the totals again...over all the tank has more armor then Retry's version.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
07/27/14 11:35 PM
108.214.144.84
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Let's get one thing straight. Your LPL modification didn't free up anything. It was all in the FA system rounding down most systems. With FA a ERLL will be lighter than the LPL because it takes up less turret weight. Same with the standard accounting.
My program doesn't do FA so I can't do that. Mostly it was speculation
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Karagin
07/27/14 11:38 PM
70.118.139.48
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Well then the FA works to allow the use of the Lg Pulse Laser, thus making for an slightly better tank over all, not my much but enough to win 8 times out of 10.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
07/27/14 11:49 PM
108.214.144.84
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It's only slightly better because you can use the rounding to your advantage in FA. Whose standard I am not using as my program won't use it. So attempt one with standard accounting.
With standard accounting the loss with the LPL is .5 tons. With fractional it is .2 tons. In both cases it will be harder to modify with a targeting CPU which is an intended modification.
That is not to say a LPL version is not a good idea. It would simply need a modification from the original to work out. Dual SLRM5s would work out well, I wager.
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Karagin
07/28/14 12:10 AM
70.118.139.48
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What about going with ATMs over the LRMs? Interesting ideas, will need to play around with things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
07/28/14 12:50 AM
108.214.144.84
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It just feels like streaks would be the better option.
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ghostrider
07/28/14 12:59 AM
24.30.141.170
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Ok. What is wrong with the erll? It builds a little more heat and needs extra sinks, but yet has a better range then the lpl.
Why is it so important to change over? the lpl hits better but has a shorter range.
And the very fact that you can create basically illegal unit with fa is why I think is should not be allowed for designing units.
Now without using FA, how does the lpl work in the tank?
Sad that the turret information is missing in the original, but not a surprise.
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Karagin
07/28/14 06:02 AM
70.118.139.48
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FA is not illegal Ghostrider, sorry but it is not. Could you show which rule book says it is?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
07/28/14 06:56 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
Retry writes:
It just feels like streaks would be the better option.
Only for ammo consumption. Clan LRMs' ability to work at short range and their light weight makes them very attractive weapons that can compete with Streaks on a ton-for-ton basis, if you don't mind the higher ammo consumption.
Switching from LRMs to ATMs is a questionable trade for the following reasons:
1) Same damage per ton of weapon system, give or take. ATMs only have a definitive damage advantage at ranges 1-3. So, both weapons start roughly equal on a ton-for-ton basis. But then...
2) ATMs cannot fire indirectly
3) ATMs cannot fire specialty ammo: no Thunder mines, no smoke, no incendiaries, no fun options.
4) ATMs require 2 separate types of ammo (short and long ranged) to match the standard LRM ammo damage performance. (And medium-ranged ATM ammo is unnecessary; you can get about the same damage profile from short and long ranged ammo).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
07/28/14 08:36 PM
70.118.139.48
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The ability to use special munitons is stopped if you stay with Streaks as well. The two types of ammo allow you to have more for less, that is my take on using them.
Seems every weapon has a draw back.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
07/28/14 09:16 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
The ability to use special munitons is stopped if you stay with Streaks as well.
Agreed. For Clan units, I wouldn't use Streaks in most cases.
Quote:
The two types of ammo allow you to have more for less, that is my take on using them.
How is 2 less than 1?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
07/29/14 06:08 AM
70.118.139.48
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You misunderstood, I am saying the ability of having the two gives you more options then just having one type to pick from.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/29/14 06:46 AM
24.30.141.170
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Where in the rule books does it say it is legal?
But enough of the fa talk.
With this being a tank, it isn't important how many missiles can be fired, since no heat build up. It may be better to have more misssile launchers and worry about ammo conservation at another time. I do believe they suggested that clan mech warriors shun vehicles and look for mech opponents in preferrence to vehicles to kill. This might give the crews enough time to actually use the ammo reserves before being a target.
I am not sure, but isn't non streak srms able to use targetting computers?
Been a while since I looked that up.
Granted more missile launchers would have to be in the body, since the turret is set for weight.
Remember. You do not have to follow any of the suggestions.
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Karagin
07/29/14 05:33 PM
70.118.139.48
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Maximum Tech and there is nothing I can find in the current core rule books saying it's no longer valid.
Valid point but at the same time the Clans aren't going to build, for the most part, a noneffective vehicle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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