Acolyte
11/03/01 11:08 AM
64.180.211.233
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O.K. try mounting a Guass Rifle and an SRM6 on each and see who wins. Also, try factoring the mobility of each unit.
No 'Mech worth it's salt has only one weapon. The fact that they have a heat chart is of great advantage as it allows the mounting of more weapon than the heat sinks would allow. this allows volleying fire and the mounting of weapons for different range brackets without having to mount heat sinks for weapons that don't get used half the time.
The consentrated armor of a vehicle is both an advantage and a disadvantage, depending on several factors. Heavy weapons tend to knock out 'Mechs, while a plethera of light weapons tend to knock out tanks. I won't even bring luck into it. The multiple hit locations that a 'Mech has tends to distribute damage around the armor. The 'Mech also has the ability to loose a location and keep going. This will kill any vehicle.
Just my two cents. 
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Korbel
11/03/01 11:26 AM
206.152.237.34
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I was simply demenstrating why I feel the To-Hit table for Vehicles is a PLUS for vehicles as opposed to mechs which is the other guys arguement...
I almost always fight with a support lance on vehicles... Their mobility and ease of defending damaged locations is a major plus to me... and oooh how I love my 2 ton Hydro foils.. hehe..
My Btech stuff is in storage... and someone post what the largest half ton and full ton engines are please?(thier ratings)
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Acolyte
11/03/01 11:45 AM
64.180.211.233
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You have pointed out the main problem with the construction rule - the disproportionate speed given to very light vehicles. If there are any changes to the construction rules, it should be here.
IMnsHO, vehicles under 5 tons should have a different system for building them.
The hit loction table has proven to be nasty in most battles. I can't count the number of times that a vehicle has lost all mobility and wound up being a sitting duck. This gets more nasty when the turrent locks. This is usually surrender time.
Which brings me to my next point. When you turn the vehicle, you expose the very same turret to damage. The turret goes, the vehicle goes. If you don't have a turret, you have to expose the same side (usually the front) to damage in order to inflict any.
There are changes that should be made. I won't dispute the fact that minimaxers can make some really kick-ass vehicles but the same is true of virtually every rules system.
In my experiance, I've never seen vehicles to be supperior to 'Mechs. They have been a threat. They have been nasty. They have taken down 'Mechs on rare occations. They have never ruled the field exept in conflict with infantry.
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Acolyte
11/03/01 12:03 PM
64.180.211.233
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Give each side a tonnage. Give each side a maximum number of units. Use level 2 rules. People can use either standard or custom. Nobody knows what the opposition is until the battle. This prevents the making of 'Mechs or vehicles designed to kill specific 'Mechs or vehicles.
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Korbel
11/03/01 12:04 PM
206.152.237.34
|
If you do want to do straight book vehicles I have a few for you...
GOB-33E Goblin Medium Tank
Type: Track
Tonnage: 45
Crew: 3
Turret: Yes
Armor: 8 tons
Cruising Speed: 4 MP
Top Speed: 6 MP
Armor
(F) Front 30
(L) Left 24
(R) Right 24
(B) Back 20
(T) Turret 30
Weapons
Name Loc Damage Min Range Range (S / M / L) Ammo
Large Laser T 8 - 5 / 10 / 15 -
Machine Gun F 2* - 1 / 2 / 3 100
HRR-A Harrasser Missile Platform
Type: Hover
Tonnage: 25
Crew: 3
Turret: Yes
Armor: 2 tons
Cruising Speed: 10 MP
Top Speed: 15 MP
Armor
(F) Front 7
(L) Left 6
(R) Right 6
(B) Back 7
(T) Turret 6
Weapons
Code Name Loc Damage Min Range Range (S / M / L) Ammo
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) T 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 15
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) T 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 15
JED-LAS J. Edgar Light Hover Tank
Type: Hover
Tonnage: 25
Crew: 3
Turret: Yes
Armor: 7.5 tons
Cruising Speed: 11 MP
Top Speed: 17 MP
Armor
(F) Front 34
(L) Left 22
(R) Right 22
(B) Back 16
(T) Turret 26
Weapons
Code Name Loc Damage Min Range Range (S / M / L) Ammo
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
TX-LRM LRM Carrier
Type: Track
Tonnage: 60
Crew: 2
Turret: No
Armor: 3 tons
Cruising Speed: 3 MP
Top Speed: 5 MP
Armor
(F) Front 12
(L) Left 12
(R) Right 12
(B) Back 12
Weapons
Code Name Loc Damage Min Range Range (S / M / L) Ammo
LRM-20 Long Range Missiles (20) F 1 - 20* 6 7 / 14 / 21 8
LRM-20 Long Range Missiles (20) F 1 - 20* 6 7 / 14 / 21 8
LRM-20 Long Range Missiles (20) F 1 - 20* 6 7 / 14 / 21 8
TX-SRM SRM Carrier
Type: Track
Tonnage: 60
Crew: 2
Turret: No
Armor: 3 tons
Cruising Speed: 3 MP
Top Speed: 5 MP
Armor
(F) Front 12
(L) Left 12
(R) Right 12
(B) Back 12
Weapons
Code Name Loc Damage Min Range Range (S / M / L) Ammo
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
SRM-6 Short Range Missiles (6) F 2 - 12* - 3 / 6 / 9 5
ONT-00 Ontos Assault Tank
Type: Track
Tonnage: 95
Crew: 3
Turret: Yes
Armor: 8.5 tons
Cruising Speed: 3 MP
Top Speed: 5 MP
Armor
(F) Front 30
(L) Left 25
(R) Right 25
(B) Back 26
(T) Turret 30
Weapons
Code Name Loc Damage Min Range Range (S / M / L) Ammo
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
ML Medium Laser T 5 - 3 / 6 / 9 -
LRM-5 Long Range Missiles (5) T 1 - 5* 6 7 / 14 / 21 12
LRM-5 Long Range Missiles (5) T 1 - 5* 6 7 / 14 / 21 12
SCH-1A Schrek Assault Tank
Type: Track
Tonnage: 80
Crew: 2
Turret: Yes
Armor: 7.5 tons
Cruising Speed: 3 MP
Top Speed: 5 MP
Armor
(F) Front 25
(L) Left 22
(R) Right 22
(B) Back 21
(T) Turret 30
Weapons
Code Name Loc Damage Min Range Range (S / M / L) Ammo
PPC Particle Projection Cannon T 10 3 6 / 12 / 18 -
PPC Particle Projection Cannon T 10 3 6 / 12 / 18 -
PPC Particle Projection Cannon T 10 3 6 / 12 / 18 -
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Karagin
11/03/01 05:05 PM
63.23.175.89
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If you say so Bob...but why point out something to you that tosses your whole theory out the window when you CAN'T take it from the book....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/03/01 05:07 PM
63.23.175.89
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Change your story or what not...you are the same one who had to use a Mechwarrior in the battle with Justin to live when the game was Battletech not Mechwarrior, so why doesn't this surprise me...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/03/01 05:10 PM
63.23.175.89
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Trust me he wants custom then I can do that to the point of munchy that folks will wonder what is going on...
Four LB-X 10s on a mech should be enough...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/03/01 05:14 PM
63.23.175.89
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Jesus H Christ...talk about changing your tune and such...what is going to be Bob, stock or custom?
You are against custom cause you claim it don't prove your point, but you claim your point applies to all things vehicle killing mechs so can you make up your mind...
You want to use your munckin toys fine...I can do the same and then what? Your point will be prove wrong and we are back to the being with the rules still not fixed and vehicles still at the bottom of the ladder...
Oh wait I forgot you still believe that vehicles are better cause they can mount tons of armor, have speed and are cheaper...but you will NOT look at all the disadvantages that goes with them...
No problem...send me your custom toys and I will be very happy to blast them to pieces...since you are afarid to face book mechs using book vehicles...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/03/01 05:17 PM
63.23.175.89
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Oh, so your theory on works IF you build the vehicles...nice....glad to see that you have limits on this, and it only applies to your stuff. To bad you didn't state that from the start with your first post...
The book units are built using the rules as written, so they are as fair as one gets with out using HOME RULES, so Bob, what is going to be FASA rules or your rules?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/03/01 05:36 PM
63.23.175.89
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Wrong...he claims that ALL vehicles are better then mechs, from his main post that is the message, now as I and others have pointed out the problems he changes his line of thinking to keep his head above the water...
If Bob's idea is true then he or anyone should be able to take the book mechs and vehicles and have a battle and the vehicles should win given the things Bob claims are advantages over the mechs.
I and others find that his thinking is flawed because he leaves out the main areas that nail vehicles and turns them into rubble.
But it is good to see you defending him since he is your brother. But since he is in this let him fight his own battle...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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DireWolf
11/04/01 10:07 AM
213.8.223.46
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...Fantech Battlemech and Vehicle rulesets. Just send an E-mail and tell me you want 'em.
If you kick Bob hard enough, he might be convinced to finish the infantry rules, as well as remaking the Aerotech/Battlespace rules, since these are his babies.
The rules come in DOC and XLS formats (Text and Weapon Tables) and are zipped. Not a big file.
I can attach some of the 'Mech/Vehicle Directories I got. I have redesigned MANY units for Fantech, by using an Excel spreadsheet I made (Its included with the rules). I have the 3025 'Mechs, 3026 and 3058 vehicles and the Clan Omnis and Secondline 'Mechs. I lack the time, and quite frankly, the will, to finish all the remaining TROs. If Fantech rules will catch on when we're done with them (Bob: HINT !!), I might do it. Until then, if you wanna play it, you'll have to re-design the units you're gonna be using.
Note: The XLS design libraries are HUGE. Even when zipped. IIRC, all of the designs I have would amount to a 10 Mb ZIP file. Very uncool if you have a 56k modem, like myself.
In general. We changed ranges, added an Armor Penetration (AP) value to weapons, changed the way some things work (Most notably, Pulse Lasers, which now are energy LB-X ACs, really) and completely redesigned the vehicle rules to include a critical space table, percentage lift/suspension factors and a composite MP calculation for VTOLs and Hovercraft.
Well, just drop me a line, and I'll send it over.
-Private LeV "Dire Wolf" Arris, IDF.
"Fight hard for what you believe in. Because if you do not, you will wake up one day and realize that there is nothing left for you to believe."
-Lt. Lev (Res. Inf.) "Dire Wolf" Arris, IDF.
"What is it like fighting the Wolf ? Imagine a lightning with legs, an earthquake with arms, a catastrophe with genius or just pure hell on wheels".
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Karagin
11/04/01 11:03 AM
63.23.175.57
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And he left out on thing in there that must be taken into account the lack of locations to place armor to insure the damage is spread out...think about that...
His idea is that forgetting all the rules that hurt vehicles he claims that they can take mechs down since they only pay heat for engery weapons and can mount missiles better then mechs, there is nothing about the lack of a lighter internal stucture or the rest of the stuff mechs can mount to allow them to carry more and I note that he says nothing about Clan vehicles at all....
Then he changes his postion to only complain about tanks being the bain of the subject...it would be nice if he would stay on topic....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
11/04/01 01:57 PM
24.44.236.103
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I'm very interested in seeing these rules...and I'm on cable, so don't worry about my end.
-NathanKell
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter, 10 Aug. 1787
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
11/04/01 08:09 PM
134.121.149.97
|
And you're the one who:
1) has lied about having a PhD
2) can't even remember whom it was I was fighting
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/04/01 08:10 PM
134.121.149.97
|
It's called an "Annihilator", and it's stock.
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/04/01 08:16 PM
134.121.149.97
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No, we fought only elite front-line units, not outcast dezgra units with their entire Clan trying to annihilate them. :)
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/04/01 08:22 PM
134.121.149.97
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The idea was to get a feel for which tech level he was using.
This is kind of important. If I go in tech 2 against tech 1, I get called for it. If I go in tech 1 vs tech 2, I'm at a disadvantage.
:)
>>>I can take down twice the number of
vehicles as mechs I'm using<<<
You can take down twice the number of mechs as 'Mechs you're using.
>>>Using half of the mechs with clan large pulses <<<
Were we using ClanTech? I didn't think that was Karagin's intention.
>>>the other half with lots of
srm-2's on fast movers with Infernos...<<<
I have stated that the inferno rules are 1) Optional and 2) Monstrously flawed.
We will, therefore, not be using them.
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/04/01 09:38 PM
134.121.149.97
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Ooh...Then I'll use sealed vehicles in a vacuum! (breach rolls really bring 'Mechs and vehicles a lot closer to even with LB-X flying.) Or. Yeah. Subs loaded with torpedos in an entirely underwater environment (infernos can't even be LAUNCHED there.)
Or at high-gravity so the 'Mechs will be largely immobilized! And on PAVEMENT, so we get a +1 speed bonus, regardless of gravity.
Point here is: the optional rules can severely change things, and most of them are quite badly written.
Many of them (including fires and infernos) are banned in MechForce tournament play.
Why should they, then, be forced on me?
:)
OTOH, if we use full rules, that means I can use a combination of ultra-heavy ARROW IV naval vessels and ultra-light TAG VTOLs... (we haven't agreed to a tonnage limit...just lance on lance. Honestly, this concerns me. I mean...Naval vessels have a lot of very real advantages over 'Mechs just from sheer tonnage.)
(I'm assuming we're not using Artillery, another potent optional rule. Take note that I usually roll head-shots with homing Arrow rounds. I don't know why.)
>>>now...with Epona's....hehehe Clan tech sure
makes vehicles a lot closer to even their clan rivals in firepower....4 clan mpulses to the rear will hurt ANYONE<<<
Ever tried remaking the SRM/LRM Carriers with ClanTech? I only THOUGHT those things were scary BEFORE...:)
>>>No clan-tech?<<<
Eh, again, I think we'd have to agree on Clan or IS, because IS tech would be naturally overmatched by ClanTech.
I do believe Karagin's planning to use IS Tech. He'd better correct me if I'm wrong too.
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/04/01 10:26 PM
63.173.170.219
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I told you what tech I was using...and you wanted customs...
As for the rest we will see...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/04/01 10:29 PM
63.173.170.219
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Don't worry Bob, FASA tech (level two IS tech) will be beating you silly, and if you want to toss things out cause you are worried iit will prove your theory wrong then that's cool, since it shows your's is not the finial answer as I stated...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/04/01 10:31 PM
63.173.170.219
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Oh there are other 4 LBX bangers out there...as you will find out and no not all of them are 100 tons...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Acolyte
11/04/01 10:56 PM
64.180.196.92
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Would you like to compare notes? Maybe we can work out a feasable system out of all this.
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Karagin
11/05/01 08:25 AM
63.173.170.188
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Come now, Bob claims the vehicles are better then mechs, so like mechs they shouldn't fear fire...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/05/01 08:29 AM
63.173.170.188
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Maybe you missed something here...the vehicles have limited spots to take damage, that means the same spot or location will be hit more often thus ensuring it will be penatrated faster then the armor on a mech that has 11 plus internal, locations to allow the damage to be spread out more.
But since you and Bob can't or won't see this and look at the correct way, as a big disadvantage then what game are you two playing? CAV? Dirtside II? Cause it's not Battletech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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DireWolf
11/05/01 09:11 AM
213.8.222.35
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What's your E-Mail ?
Doesn't show an address in your profile.
-Private LeV "Dire Wolf" Arris, IDF.
"Fight hard for what you believe in. Because if you do not, you will wake up one day and realize that there is nothing left for you to believe."
-Lt. Lev (Res. Inf.) "Dire Wolf" Arris, IDF.
"What is it like fighting the Wolf ? Imagine a lightning with legs, an earthquake with arms, a catastrophe with genius or just pure hell on wheels".
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Bob_Richter
11/05/01 04:55 PM
134.121.16.64
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Uh. Actually, you said which 'MECHS you were using.
Notably, both tech 1 and tech 2 variants exist of ALL of those 'Mechs, so how could I possibly know which tech you wanted?
Customs are still limited by tech level, sir.
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/05/01 04:59 PM
134.121.16.64
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Like submarines, then, 'Mechs shouldn't fear water. :)
How about we run one battle, a "Control", where there's no fire OR water, then we run fights with first fire and then water, and I'll show you that a 'Mech can get just as badly out of its element.
:)
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/05/01 05:01 PM
134.121.16.64
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Even better. That means they are slower and/or their armor is thinner.
What tonnage are you thinking, Karagin?
'Cause otherwise I'm going to have real trouble with this. If you've decided to field a Lance of assault 'Mechs, and I go with a lance of heavyweight hovercraft, that clearly isn't going to disprove my point (the equal tonnage proposition is nullified)
-Bob Richter
A dead primate is nobody's ancestor.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/05/01 06:11 PM
63.173.170.46
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No kidding and like I said FASA tech will wipe your little munchkin force out...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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