Karagin
08/25/14 09:07 PM
70.118.139.48
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Did the RWR have a space naval force that could actually be a threat to the Star League?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/25/14 10:01 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Did the RWR have a space naval force that could actually be a threat to the Star League?
Depends on how you define the "Rim Worlds Republic."
Prior to Amaris's Coup, no, the Rim Worlds had jack squat. Its initial fleet capabilities were discussed in, IIRC, Historicals: Liberation of Terra 1. You might also check Era Report: 2750. But the RWR had nothing that could really bother the Star League Defense force on its own.
However, that changed when the Terran Hegemony joined with Amaris. When Amaris launched his coup, the Camerons were despised by the Hegemony as incompetent boobs. The Rim Worlds Republic, meanwhile, was the primary site of Hegemony settlement in the Periphery and viewed by the Hegemony sort of like the US's view of Canada. Along came Amaris, who held a Hegemony dual-citizenship, got rid of the corrupt Camerons, and offered the Hegemony a new deal. After the shooting stopped, Amaris held a fairly free and open election in the Hegemony and was elected as the next Hegemony Director-General. He had the thorough backing of the Hegemony's nobility, who were tired of the Cameron idiocy that seemed to be dragging down the Star League and Hegemony alike.
So, Amaris's coup was a Germany-Austria Anschluss thing, with a few more nukes on inconvenient military holdouts.
At that point, you could say that the "Rim Worlds Republic" suddenly gained all the industrial and military might of the Terran Hegemony. Or, rather, Amaris gained all the industrial might of the Hegemony. He sort of left the Rim Worlds undefended.
So shortly after the Coup, the SLDF rolled over Rim Worlds with scarcely any shots fired. The RWR was thick with Hegemony citizens all too happy to work with the SLDF and turned into the SLDF's ironic base of operations against the Amaris-dominated Hegemony. Meanwhile, the Terran Hegemony was very heavily defended and Amaris easily presented a huge threat to the SLDF, which is why the Star League Civil War lasted so many years. Not the least of the problems was that it was a real civil war: many in the Hegemony were pissed that Kerensky wasn't obeying their wishes. And hence you got about 20 years of civil war, which the Rim Worlds could've never managed on its own.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (08/25/14 10:18 PM)
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Karagin
08/25/14 10:25 PM
70.118.139.48
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Thanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
09/05/14 01:48 PM
104.49.175.97
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Did the RWR have a space naval force that could actually be a threat to the Star League?
According to LoT:I, the Rim Worlds Navy in 2750 consisted of 18 ships and 30 mothballed, Pinto-class ships from the Tadeo-Amaris-era buildup. These likely consisted of Aegis-class cruisers, Nagas, Lola Block I or IIs and, potentially, Quixote-class missile carriers. We do know that there were two, completed Stefan-Amaris-class Battleships by the time of the coup, with a third awaiting completion. We also know they were in possession of a number of de-commissioned Dart-class cruisers at the time and that the Lyran Commonwealth sold an unknown number of Mako-class corvettes to various states.
By 2765, they included 300+ warships, of an unknown quality and quantity. Since it would have been impossible for the Rim Worlds' one-to-three ship yards to produce 240 ships in 15-years-time, it's a mystery as to where these large numbers of naval vessels came from. They could not have been Hegemony vessels, as this didn't occur until December 27, 2766. Were I to venture a guess, these would have been older vessels, like Block I Lola-class ships, Assault Dropships and (potentially) the mothballed Aegis-class vessels sold to the member states that were not in use. Some ships (like the Quixote) seem like they could have been made under commercial license, but we still have no clue where they might have been produced.
With House Cameron and House Amaris in such close proximity at the time, it's possible the First Lord could have "gifted" some mothballed and aging vessels: Congress, Carson, Baron, Quixote, Riga, Vincent, Monsoon and Dreadnought.
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TigerShark
09/05/14 08:00 PM
104.49.175.97
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Although these larger ships were scarce and quite rare, it would explain why the RWN would even ATTEMPT to challenge the naval force of the SLDF during the Coup. Even a fanatical dullard would notice if he/she were out-classed and probably avoid a direct confrontation. i.e.: nobody's putting a force of Pintos and Vincents against a Cameron-class Battleship. So they MUST have had large(r) vessels which could at least create a sustained barrage of fire capable of taking down a Heavy Cruiser or larger en masse.
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ghostrider
09/06/14 12:36 AM
66.74.189.38
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Ok. Logic seems to be lacking sometimes with the cannon materials. There are a few times that they had to change some things to make it work. But that is a different topic.
I can see where they could use the story line of Amaris being friends with Cameron and gaining several lucrative contracts for ships and possibly being able to purchase or be given some of the ships scheduled to be decommissioned. This does not include any ships that could have been captured by Amaris loyal forces onboard sldf ships at the start of the war. It may have been only a few, but it's a start.
It may be possible Amaris got the coordinates of several league scrap yards and pilfered ships before they were decommissioned and forged the documents saying they were done.
Now since I don't have those source books, I will guess that they were not facing the entire sldf fleet so they may have stood a chance against the few ships sent to the rim worlds. The outcome is known. The rim worlds fleet may have held off until the league had spread out then hit, and lost. They would have to fight at some time, because warships need support, and when the enemy is destroying that, you either run completely or hit when you can.
This does not add in any 'secret' facilities that seem to pop up in stories and even in the designers own schemes. The Helm library seems to show that as well as the galtor campaign book.
It does not take into account possible ship purchases from other periphery states either. If someone took a ship from the sldf and didn't want to, or couldn't keep it, selling it to a quiet buyer would work out for both entities. The intel department couldn't keep track of everything, though some would say sales like this would not be possible to hide. Done right, and it would be.
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TigerShark
09/06/14 02:27 AM
104.49.175.97
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Not much was changed. In TRO:3057, the description of several warships note that decommissioned vessels were sold to Member States, including the Rim Worlds Republic. So ships like the Aegis, Naga and Dart aren't even in question; they had them. It's also known 100% that they manufactured the Stefan-Amaris-class battleship and Pinto-class corvette locally (probably at Star's End).
But you're right. It's unknown where some of the others came from. It could be that some ships, after becoming obsolete, were part of the "trickle-down" that the Star League had promised in the 2698 edict. Something like a Quixote is just a "missile carrier" ship. It wouldn't require any "advanced" ship-building materials or lithium fusion batteries to operate, so those were probably relatively common.
You're also right that the Rim Worlds Navy didn't stand up well to the SLN in a 1-on-1 fight. It often took vast numbers to down their ships, but the books don't make clear whether this was due to a severe detriment in tonnage, armament or gunnery training. Or any combination thereof. I'm HOPING the new 2765 book sheds a bit of light on the RWN, since it's one of the most important pieces of the era's puzzle, IMO.
You can't have a game with only one player, after all. And 2012-13 is the first time in BT history we actually got a look at the RWA / RWN.
Edited by TigerShark (09/06/14 02:31 AM)
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Cray
09/06/14 11:53 AM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Although these larger ships were scarce and quite rare, it would explain why the RWN would even ATTEMPT to challenge the naval force of the SLDF during the Coup. Even a fanatical dullard would notice if he/she were out-classed and probably avoid a direct confrontation. i.e.: nobody's putting a force of Pintos and Vincents against a Cameron-class Battleship. So they MUST have had large(r) vessels which could at least create a sustained barrage of fire capable of taking down a Heavy Cruiser or larger en masse.
Only to a certain extent. The Coup's military aspect didn't happen until Amaris had most of the powers-that-be in the Hegemony lined up behind him, and their militias / house guards on his side, and had the small percentage of the SLDF lingering in the Hegemony thoroughly infiltrated by Rim Worlds personnel. There wouldn't be many SLDF heavy cruisers and battleships to fight, and they only needed delaying actions until the Hegemony public held their confirmation vote for Amaris.
The unexpected part happened after the Coup and vote: Kerensky didn't obey the Hegemony's wishes and, after years of preparation, launched a war against the Hegemony.
Quote:
Ghostrider writes:
Now since I don't have those source books, I will guess that they were not facing the entire sldf fleet so they may have stood a chance against the few ships sent to the rim worlds. The outcome is known. The rim worlds fleet may have held off until the league had spread out then hit, and lost. They would have to fight at some time, because warships need support, and when the enemy is destroying that, you either run completely or hit when you can.
The timeline goes like this:
1) The Periphery erupts in war against the Star League. Except the Rim Worlds Republic: the Rim Worlds remains loyal to the Star League
2) The SLDF deploys into the Periphery to suppress this giant rebellion
3) The SLDF deploys so many troops into the Periphery that it isn't defending the Terran Hegemony well
4) The Rim Worlds Republic, which is heavily settled and populated by Hegemony citizens, volunteers to send its troops to help the Hegemony's defenses. Not that the Hegemony, in the center of the Inner Sphere, was under attack by anyone.
5) Amaris launches his Coup, taking over the Terran Hegemony and declaring himself boss of the Star League
6) The population of the Hegemony votes to accept Amaris. He also has the backing of most of the Hegemony's nobility, who are tired of Cameron's buffoonery that probably started the Periphery rebellion.
7) The SLDF refuses to acknowledge Amaris as boss. Instead, it runs and conquers the nearly-undefended Rim Worlds Republic and spends years readying itself to liberate the Hegemony.
8 ) The Terran Hegemony, under Amaris, spends years bracing itself to fight the SLDF.
9) Big War, Amaris loses, Star League falls, SLDF leaves the Inner Sphere, Succession Wars happen
So, in step 7, the Rim Worlds Republic had very few defenders when the entire SLDF ran over it. That's because the Rim Worlds' defenders were mostly in the Terran Hegemony.
Quote:
The intel department couldn't keep track of everything, though some would say sales like this would not be possible to hide. Done right, and it would be.
That's true, but Amaris had the advantage of being best buddies with the First Lord of the Star League. He specifically worked to get military restrictions lifted from the Rim Worlds Republic leading up to the Coup. And after the Coup, he was in charge of the Terran Hegemony's enormous industrial base and could order all the WarShips he wanted.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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TigerShark
09/06/14 04:06 PM
104.49.175.97
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Quote:
Cray writes:
Only to a certain extent. The Coup's military aspect didn't happen until Amaris had most of the powers-that-be in the Hegemony lined up behind him, and their militias / house guards on his side, and had the small percentage of the SLDF lingering in the Hegemony thoroughly infiltrated by Rim Worlds personnel. There wouldn't be many SLDF heavy cruisers and battleships to fight, and they only needed delaying actions until the Hegemony public held their confirmation vote for Amaris.
The unexpected part happened after the Coup and vote: Kerensky didn't obey the Hegemony's wishes and, after years of preparation, launched a war against the Hegemony.
Unfortunately, the Rim Worlds fleet was left out of the Liberation of Terra books entirely. In fact... Just about everything was left out of LoT concerning the Rim Worlds troops. So... We have no idea (right now) what their fleet was composed of.
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Cray
09/06/14 06:43 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Unfortunately, the Rim Worlds fleet was left out of the Liberation of Terra books entirely. In fact... Just about everything was left out of LoT concerning the Rim Worlds troops. So... We have no idea (right now) what their fleet was composed of.
That's not a big surprise. Very few of the Rim Worlds troops stayed around for the big fights. Few of them were present to defend the Rim Worlds from the SLDF early in the Star League Civil War. And then there was a years-long gap while the troops in the Hegemony had a long time to sit and think of their families being held hostage by the SLDF, so it was mostly Hegemony units that fought the SLDF during the Liberation.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
09/06/14 08:10 PM
70.118.139.48
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Do you think we will see a book or two that covers the RWR military in-depth or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
09/06/14 09:11 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Do you think we will see a book or two that covers the RWR military in-depth or not?
I haven't heard any rumblings of new Periphery books since the Major Periphery States book was published. That was supposed to address them.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
09/06/14 09:30 PM
70.118.139.48
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Well clearly it didn't...what would be cool would be a book covering everything about the RWR in detail to allow for those who want to battle them vs the SLDF etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
09/07/14 08:37 AM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Well clearly it didn't...what would be cool would be a book covering everything about the RWR in detail to allow for those who want to battle them vs the SLDF etc...
Here's the official Ask the Line Developers forum where you can pose that suggestion to folks who are in a place to do something with it:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/board,34.0.html
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
09/07/14 11:30 AM
70.118.139.48
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Thanks
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
09/07/14 05:49 PM
104.49.175.97
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Quote:
Cray writes:
Quote:
TigerShark writes:
Unfortunately, the Rim Worlds fleet was left out of the Liberation of Terra books entirely. In fact... Just about everything was left out of LoT concerning the Rim Worlds troops. So... We have no idea (right now) what their fleet was composed of.
That's not a big surprise. Very few of the Rim Worlds troops stayed around for the big fights. Few of them were present to defend the Rim Worlds from the SLDF early in the Star League Civil War. And then there was a years-long gap while the troops in the Hegemony had a long time to sit and think of their families being held hostage by the SLDF, so it was mostly Hegemony units that fought the SLDF during the Liberation.
Still would have been nice to get ANY kind of data on them. After 30 years of BattleTech, we have...
- No paint schemes.
- Less than 10 unit nicknames
- No TO&E
- No naval data
- No factory data
There really isn't any other major faction that's had this little published. Imagine if the same were done for the Word of Blake. How would you play the WoB with no data about their army? O.o Guess you could sub in guesstimate units, but that's not very interesting.
Kind of been that way since the beginning. Can't play the SL era because the opposing side isn't really being detailed to any degree. The most recent books, LoT:I and II, ER:2750 and the 2765 series finally shed some light on them, but we know more about the TDF than the RWA/AEAF.
Edited by TigerShark (09/07/14 05:52 PM)
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Karagin
09/07/14 08:28 PM
70.118.139.48
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Got to agree with Tigershark.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
09/07/14 09:26 PM
104.49.175.97
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FYI, the reasoning was explained by Herb on the battletech.com forums:
Quote:
Reply #1 on: 30 March 2014, 20:29:01 ยป
Hi,
An out-of-universe explanation? Yeah. For the most part, I guess, we just didn't care.
Thanks,
- Herb
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ghostrider
09/08/14 02:00 AM
66.74.189.38
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what good are source books if they don't have information in them?
Oh we had this conversation before. Money.
It is interesting that more then a few pirates were formed in the rim worlds area. They got obliterated when the clans came in, but they were real popular ones like star's end, ryan's redjacks and oberon. I can't remember the correct names right now, and too lazy to look them up. There has to be something there left over from the wars, even decent planets to live on.
Guess when it comes down to it, information is based on how much money they can make from it.
They had to have something worth a crap, since they weren't steamrollered by the lyran commonwealth, and them being distracted isn't a good answer.
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TigerShark
09/08/14 03:18 AM
104.49.175.97
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
what good are source books if they don't have information in them?
Oh we had this conversation before. Money.
It is interesting that more then a few pirates were formed in the rim worlds area. They got obliterated when the clans came in, but they were real popular ones like star's end, ryan's redjacks and oberon. I can't remember the correct names right now, and too lazy to look them up. There has to be something there left over from the wars, even decent planets to live on.
Guess when it comes down to it, information is based on how much money they can make from it.
They had to have something worth a crap, since they weren't steamrollered by the lyran commonwealth, and them being distracted isn't a good answer.
Absolutely. I'm willing to bet that there were several factories capable of making double-strength heat sinks from imported endo steel. Also makes sense that Star's End would be a place where said endo steel could be produced, being a zero-G production facility. Not to mention the countless vehicle factories that the RWA would have relied upon as an industrial base. Major manufacturers were producing SL-quality equipment for the SLDF in the end, though again, we don't know which. Rowe Weapons Systems, which made aerospace fighters, was producing the Falcon FLC-4Nb for Kerensky. So gods know what else was being made.
Well, I can imagine the SL era wasn't profitable (sales-wise) because it was impossible to create a campaign with the materials given. You had bucket-loads of SLDF information and none on the AEAF or the Periphery nations attempting to break away. So what does the SLDF player fight against? There wasn't even a single RAT to play off of for 23 years (1989 was "TRO:2750").
That's beyond silly. It's self-sabotage.
Edited by TigerShark (09/08/14 12:50 PM)
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ghostrider
09/08/14 05:45 PM
66.74.189.38
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Profit might have been possible. Rich people may have been looking for units for their private army, but would not be able to purchase it from the league. So you go to where the league has problems watching, ie the periphery. Granted, it may have been low profits, but it you are making more money then you are spending for a product, that's profit.
Hell, just the aerofighters would be a good start. I find it hard to believe that you can completely destroy things like ship yards. Also, you will try to tell me there weren't any hidden assets and such?
But that goes back to the developers. Guess they ran out of ideas, or got the 'im not getting paid enough' mode of thinking. You have heard of other units running deeper in to the periphery when attacked, it could have happened with rim worlds units, but without any information, we can not even begin to think of things like that.
Some of the source books they put out where kind of thin. How hard would it have been to put in something to fill them up a little? Or giving the customer some 'extra' information just didn't fit the making money idea?
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Karagin
09/08/14 08:49 PM
70.118.139.48
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Could be but there is a demand and asking for the stuff now and they still don't seem to want to worry about the past history of the game and seemed more focused on the areas like current time line, which is great but there is a demand for the older stuff as well and they would make money by doing both and given how easy (In the sense of cost of releasing etc...) a PDF vs a paper book one would think we would see more from TPTB for Battletech, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
09/09/14 12:03 AM
108.219.225.104
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It's pretty obvious I'm a Rim Worlds fan, but this isn't even a "fanboy" style rant. It's a common sense request that one of history's most-important factions be fleshed out so that an entire era could be played.
What if, throughout the Jihad, we heard about the Shadow Divisions and how awesome they were... but never had any WoB 'Mechs published. What would the Shadow Divisions use in combat? Old SLDF units? That's seriously anti-climactic and would have put people off of that era. The Celestials were a HUUUUGE selling point and they even boosted sales (IMHO) for 3075. The cybernetic enhancements, C3i, etc. were all things that drew people to the faction.
The same should have been done for the Periphery Powers and the Rim Worlds Republic. Detail all of the wonder weapons Amaris came up with. The make-shift variants they developed after the birthday proclamation. Or maybe some suicide weapons, like a Wasp outfitted with booby traps for the Taurian freedom fighters. There are LOTS of things you could do to fill out a TRO of pack Camospecs with cool diroamas of the Secret Army, Amaris Empire, etc.
Instead, we have more schemes for the Nation of Hastur and Ilkasur Shogunate; two "countries" that existed in far-off space and were a literary footnote. It's just truly bizarre.
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ghostrider
09/09/14 04:11 AM
66.74.189.38
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Part of the problem I ran into with stuff was I got some of the 'new' information 10 years after it was out.
If I know right, the blackhearts regiment was supposed to be a left over from the star leagues sas regiments. The stupid thing about things like this is it leaves the questions like...
Why do units that trace back to the league not have some of the tech from that time period?
Why do they not have some sort of cache that they hid the tech in, when that type of tech would bring attention when found? Things like powered armor before the clans is a good one here. Not everything would have been destroyed. Just not possible.
Would their not be stations and such hidden in unihabited space where things like naval weapons would be stored at?
The Dragoons should have had elementals with them before they broke from the clans, or as the fiction stories said, ordered to ignore the clan council. There is not mention of them before the clan invasion, yet they were sent into the innnersphere.
I guess it comes down to not putting the effort into making this stuff up. The Turians had a version of the commando during the 3025 era. Obviously they put some effort into some of the periphery, why not a few simple notes for the pirates? They are where mercs go for some 'easy' money.
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ghostrider
09/09/14 04:17 AM
66.74.189.38
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Thinking about it, it would be nice to know why someone wouldn't have been able to search that area and find something like a cache of ship weapons, or maybe even a torn up but usable warship.
It was a large area with habital planets, yet in the begining of the game, it made it sound like very little was habitable with pirates hiding on barren worlds.
Why would this be?
Did the league blow the planets ecosystem up so badly it destroy they planets ability to sustain life?
Did they nuke the planets and everything to the point of uselessness?
It doesn't make sense not to eliminate or encourage the 'secret' bases that the developers and story writers love to have in the entire universe. For someone like the rim worlds, it would make sense to scatter and hide assets more then the league did. Especially once Kerensky started his push.
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csadn
09/19/14 02:47 AM
50.39.220.243
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Ok. Logic seems to be lacking sometimes with the cannon materials. There are a few times that they had to change some things to make it work.
...and that's why I quit paying attention after they flat-out ignored _The Star League_, which clearly stated "Aleksandr Kerensky had no children" as why he didn't install himself as new head of the Hegemony a la McKenna, and crammed "Nicholas Kerensky" and the rest down the players' throats....
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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TigerShark
09/22/14 07:30 PM
104.49.175.97
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Yes. The ball was dropped a bit with the invention of the Clans. It turned a corner into a "Games Workshop" angle which never quite fit the universe. While I enjoy Clan play, a "Star League in Exile" retaking the Hegemony worlds and setting up the Republic of the Sphere would have been far more interesting and in-line with the universe canon.
Could have been akin to Alexander the Great's generals taking over and sub-dividing his empire after Alexander's death. Each "state" emerging from the original Corps of the SLDF, but working in union for a common cause. The association with totems, honor, etc. could have been discarded easily.
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ghostrider
09/22/14 08:50 PM
75.80.234.37
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I could see the original clan leaders trying to install the honor system with their troops, and having to release alot of soldiers that would or could never adopt to it.
But without someone in charge, the clans would have reverted back to the successor states loyalties, ie kurita, davion....
Now after 300 years, that might have been breed out of them, but they would have come up with new things to follow, and yes, they have their grudges among clans and even inside of them.
But honestly, I do not think they would be stupid enough to think their 800 blood named warriors with the limited forces would be able to conquer the entire innersphere. Cooperation aside, even hitting one house at a time, would have forced the others to ban together. If for no other reason, but to have someone else distract the enemy as you raid them as much as you could.
But this is drifting further from the question about rim worlds having a naval force.
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Cray
09/23/14 07:07 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
TigerShark writes:
While I enjoy Clan play, a "Star League in Exile" retaking the Hegemony worlds and setting up the Republic of the Sphere would have been far more interesting and in-line with the universe canon.
I agree quite a bit. I liked the Clans initially, because of the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, but that lasted until I got a good look at their culture and background. I've had more fun with Star League-in-Exile alternate histories.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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GiovanniBlasini
09/24/14 03:32 AM
75.85.176.204
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I'm not sweating the Kerensky/kids thing much, since I could certainly see him trying to keep that secret, and most Inner Sphere historians just not knowing.
As for the Clans, I have trouble taking them seriously. Setting aside that they push "FASAnomics" harder than most other factions, I've my doubts whether such a society could really have made much in the way of technical advances, instead of collapsing over their own inefficiencies. I'd have expected the War-of-Reaving-level insanity to have killed off the Clans well before they got the chance to invade the Inner Sphere again.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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